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Old 11-13-2012, 03:23   #21
NEOH212
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The 10mm may have more penetration but it's just long and skinny.

The .45 is short and fat. Just the way it ought to be!

The 10mm may go in deeper but you'll really feel that short fat .45 they day after!

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Last edited by NEOH212; 11-13-2012 at 03:25..
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:25   #22
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People should carry whatever they feel most comfortable with. I don't deny that.

What i was saying was, in the case of service caliber handguns and dealing with hostile bipedal primates, if you hit them with a 9mm and they are not ceasing hostility, a .40 or .45 isn't gonna magically stop them. It's possible that maybe a .45 would shatter a femur or pelvis a little more than a 9mm or an artery could be barely missed with a 9mm where an identically placed shot with a .45 would have nicked it. However I just don't see it making a huge difference most of the time.

I do like the .45 ACP cartridge. A Glock 21SF is just as easy to shoot as a 17 in my experience. And a Glock 22 loaded with 180 grain bullets is only a little snappier than the 9mm or .45. I never have particularly enjoyed shooting .40 but guess what, I have a G22. I shoot it well enough but I would have rather had a 21. I was going to buy a 21 SF or Gen 4 but I ended up with the 22 because at the time I thought I needed a pistol bigger than 9mm but didn't like the cost of .45ACP ammo. So I ended up just getting the 22 Gen 4 because the ammo was a little less expensive. I figured I could just learn to deal with the snappy recoil of the lighter, faster loads or just stick with 180 grain ammo. I can control any .40 load but it just isn't as pleasant to shoot as 9mm and .45 Auto. 180 grain bullets aren't snappy per se but still, what's the point when I could be launching 230 grain .45 slugs with follow up shots coming just as fast or maybe even faster. Or I could be shooting a 9mm which would do the same thing as either of these two most of the time and get undeniably faster followup shots.

Or I could step up to a G20 but I don't want to kill everything within a 5 square mile area behind my target.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:31   #23
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People should carry whatever they feel most comfortable with. I don't deny that.

What i was saying was, in the case of service caliber handguns and dealing with hostile bipedal primates, if you hit them with a 9mm and they are not ceasing hostility, a .40 or .45 isn't gonna magically stop them. It's possible that maybe a .45 would shatter a femur or pelvis a little more than a 9mm or an artery could be barely missed with a 9mm where an identically placed shot with a .45 would have nicked it. However I just don't see it making a huge difference most of the time.

I do like the .45 ACP cartridge. A Glock 21SF is just as easy to shoot as a 17 in my experience. And a Glock 22 loaded with 180 grain bullets is only a little snappier than the 9mm or .45. I never have particularly enjoyed shooting .40 but guess what, I have a G22. I shoot it well enough but I would have rather had a 21. I was going to buy a 21 SF or Gen 4 but I ended up with the 22 because at the time I thought I needed a pistol bigger than 9mm but didn't like the cost of .45ACP ammo. So I ended up just getting the 22 Gen 4 because the ammo was a little less expensive. I figured I could just learn to deal with the snappy recoil of the lighter, faster loads or just stick with 180 grain ammo. I can control any .40 load but it just isn't as pleasant to shoot as 9mm and .45 Auto. 180 grain bullets aren't snappy per se but still, what's the point when I could be launching 230 grain .45 slugs with follow up shots coming just as fast or maybe even faster. Or I could be shooting a 9mm which would do the same thing as either of these two most of the time and get undeniably faster followup shots.

Or I could step up to a G20 but I don't want to kill everything within a 5 square mile area behind my target.

The .40 nicely fills the gap (that does exist by the way despite what some people think) between the 9mm and the .45 ACP.

The .40 is always a solid choice and is personally the smallest caliber that I will choose to carry when I'm not able to carry a .45 which is almost never.

The 9mm is the bare minimum that I would ever consider but I would have to be in a pinch and not have a .40 or .45 available to warrant me carrying one.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:55   #24
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For (1) concealed carry (2) in public (3) by a civilian (4) in the US, the rifle is simply inapplicable. The rifle's superiority against an opponent becomes irrelevant if the situation precludes your possessing it at that moment.

The greater the energy/momentum/wound-area the projectile possesses, the greater chance of incapacitation with fewer hits. I think it better to have a higher chance of needing only a single hit to incapacitate than needing multiple hits for the same chance. The 9mm is entirely servicable as a carry round: I think OTHER rounds are MORE serviceable IF THE FIREARM CAN BE CONCEALED IN PUBLIC.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:13   #25
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That about sums up what I've come to think about the debate between various service calibers in pistols. I mean, maybe .40 and .45 are marginally better than 9mm but really, it's not gonna make that big of a differene. If you ever encounter a situation where several center mass hits with quality 9mm ammo can't take care of it, you need to either 1) consider retreating or 2.) get to a long gun if that isn't an option. If you really think about it, if it's not dying after beiing hit with a 9mm, that little bit of extra power a .40 or .45 offers probably won't make a difference.

What do you guys think?
You guys kill me so to speak. I have chosen after a few years of trial and error on my part to stay with a few selections of calibers mainly due to a logistics viewpoint. I have a supply of 9mm/.38spcl/.357/7.62 bullets for my 3 types of firearms, and that is it. I had a lot more types but it was a mess to keep straight.

If you think 9mm is a whoose round (it did in Trevon didn't it?), then stand still and let me shoot you in a non-lethal area and see what you think then.

I recognize that .40/.45ACP/10mm/.44Mags are more powerful, but so what? If I had to use my 9mm on a person (hopefully never), well I would not want to be them. I train to be accurate and steady, and do not shoot to wound, that is BS. I shoot to hit them in the center mass and if I do so with a 9mm, it is going to be better than nothing, and a lot better than missing.

Last edited by Glockworks; 11-13-2012 at 04:17.. Reason: Added Trevon
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:30   #26
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9mm for flexibility.

.45 is the undisputed king of manstoppers.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:15   #27
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Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
The 10mm may have more penetration but it's just long and skinny.

The .45 is short and fat. Just the way it ought to be!

The 10mm may go in deeper but you'll really feel that short fat .45 they day after!

You really went there...
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:27   #28
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:30   #29
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Believe it or not I recall at least one GT thread where one or two Facklerites did devalue the legendary .357 Magnum's reputation. I remember it very well because I located a graphic of the "perfect wound profile" created by Fackler himself that still failed to sway the GT members who refused to give the Magnum its proper credit.
Shawn Dodson probably the culprit.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:59   #30
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Load selection is more important than caliber selection.

That having been said, there are some calibers that are more forgiving of the lesser load selections. The 10mm and .45 ACP would be in this category.

Shoot what you feel most comfortable with. If you can handle a .40 or .45, then by all means go for it.
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:00   #31
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You really went there...
Yes, she did..
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:20   #32
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That about sums up what I've come to think about the debate between various service calibers in pistols. I mean, maybe .40 and .45 are marginally better than 9mm but really, it's not gonna make that big of a differene. If you ever encounter a situation where several center mass hits with quality 9mm ammo can't take care of it, you need to either 1) consider retreating or 2.) get to a long gun if that isn't an option. If you really think about it, if it's not dying after beiing hit with a 9mm, that little bit of extra power a .40 or .45 offers probably won't make a difference.

What do you guys think?
What do I think? I think you are falling into a logical error in which time is negleted.

If you need to shoot someone who is shooting at you, you ned to stop them shooting at you as quickly as possible to reduce their chance of killing you. Whether a 9mm will kill them or not if they stand still while you shoot enough rounds at them is irrelevant. All that matters is how long it is before they stop shooting.

All the rounds which are more powerful than the 9mm have more bullet momentum and so pistols shooting those rounds take a little longer to get back to aim. But the first shot takes just the same time for a .40 as for a 9mm and just a little longer for a .45 or 10mm because the pistol has more mass. So, you need to maximise the effect of the first shot and maximise the effect of the number fired per time to fire them.

In other words, if it takes fewer shots of .40, 357SIG, .45 or 10mm on average to stop the fight than a 9mm, can you fire those shots in more or less time than the number needed for the 9mm. As far as I am concerned the split time difference is very small and I think the extra effect of the better than 9mms save you time to the stop. Your opinion and time difference might be different but that does not mean the 9mm is always as good as the more than 9mms.

Incidentally, getting shot with almost anything is likely to hinder the process of making an aimed shot, so the first hit is very important because it buys you some time before your opponent's next shot. Because of this, although the 10mm almost certainly has a greater effect per shot than the 357SIG, the 357SIG might be a better choice because the lighter weight of the pistol lets you get that first shot just a tiny part of a second sooner. This argument does not apply between the 9mm and the 357SIG, in Glocks at least, because they are the same weight.

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Old 11-13-2012, 08:51   #33
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The LE guys seem to like the .40

If the 9mm was just as good they all would
carry it and save on ammo.

FBI issues the G23

Secret service the 357 sig
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:10   #34
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If you think 9mm is a whoose round (it did in Trevon didn't it?), then stand still and let me shoot you in a non-lethal area and see what you think then.
I'll tell you what I'm going to do. We will discuss between the two of us, and decide, where that "non-lethal" shot will be taken. I'll shoot first, because it was your idea, and, shoot you with my G20, in the spot we decided as "non-lethal". Then you go second! Thought so! Off the top of my head, a hand shot may be the only option for surviving the first shot, but guessing, you will probably lose that hand! So for Gods sake, don't pick your shooting hand.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:13   #35
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The LE guys seem to like the .40

If the 9mm was just as good they all would
carry it and save on ammo.

FBI issues the G23

Secret service the 357 sig
Don't forget those special forces heroes! Which firearm company, just won a large contract, and, what caliber was it in?
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:37   #36
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Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
The LE guys seem to like the .40

If the 9mm was just as good they all would
carry it and save on ammo.

FBI issues the G23

Secret service the 357 sig
The .40 round is so prevalent in LE because it is a compromise round. As with any organization, the leadership like to make compromise decisions because it makes them look good.

My guess is most cops who are gun savvy would choose to carry a 9mm or .45 if given the choice.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:37   #37
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I think this is my favorite non-political subject to debate.

I think the most important thing is whether you can consistenty hit what you are shooting at. If I can't hit the broad side of a barn with 17 rounds of 9mm, but I can get five hits out of a 10 rd magazine of 22lr I'm way better off with the 22. Likewise, a shooter who is good enough with his 1911 to get 3 or 4 shots into the chests of two attackers from one mag? He should definitely carry his .45.
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Old 11-13-2012, 14:07   #38
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That about sums up what I've come to think about the debate between various service calibers in pistols. I mean, maybe .40 and .45 are marginally better than 9mm but really, it's not gonna make that big of a differene. If you ever encounter a situation where several center mass hits with quality 9mm ammo can't take care of it, you need to either 1) consider retreating or 2.) get to a long gun if that isn't an option. If you really think about it, if it's not dying after beiing hit with a 9mm, that little bit of extra power a .40 or .45 offers probably won't make a difference.

What do you guys think?
The question HAS NEVER BEEN whether a 9mm kills better than any other caliber but does it stop better? With good JHP, a 9mm gets off it's knees & becomes as good a stopper as any other service pistol. That IMO, others have theirs. There is a reason the 9mm took so long to become a viable LE caliber, you have to have good JHP. I would rather carry a good 9mm JHP than ball in 45acp. Given good JHP in any caliber, bigger is slightly better & slightly may be all that you get in a gunfight.
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Old 11-13-2012, 19:15   #39
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For (1) concealed carry (2) in public (3) by a civilian (4) in the US, the rifle is simply inapplicable. The rifle's superiority against an opponent becomes irrelevant if the situation precludes your possessing it at that moment.
This
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Old 11-13-2012, 19:21   #40
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This
He's right. Fight your way back to your rifle is BS in my opinion.
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