[RustyL]

Exactly, some of us get trapped into working for ass holes. Stastics show, people like their jobs, they dislike the people who run it.
I can only speak for myself, your employer is at will also. I do not agree with at will employement

Originally Posted by Bill Keith

"AT Will" is code language for screw the employee, don't like what the boss dictates - take a hike.

[Hef]

Originally Posted by RustyL

Exactly, some of us get trapped into working for ass holes. Stastics show, people like their jobs, they dislike the people who run it.
I can only speak for myself, your employer is at will also. I do not agree with at will employement

Start your own business and do it your way.

[certifiedfunds]

Originally Posted by RustyL

Exactly, some of us get trapped into working for ass holes. Stastics show, people like their jobs, they dislike the people who run it.
I can only speak for myself, your employer is at will also. I do not agree with at will employement

How do you get trapped?

[Arquebus12]

Originally Posted by Slug71

Pretty much. And more people just end up on welfare.

Good Lord...

You voted for Obama, didn't you?

[Halojumper]

Originally Posted by Z71bill

Sometimes you need to get rid of a few people because business is down - it has nothing to do with performance.

In some countries it is almost impossible to do this - the result is companies don't expand for fear that the potential business will not pan out and they will then be stuck with extra staff and no way to get rid of them.

But this is sort of the point - a company should not need a paper trail - they should be able to say - we no longer wish for you to work here -

The paper trail is only required to protect yourself from legal action - the EEOC can also be a major PITA - I am pretty sure that their efforts - as noble as they may be - tying to keep employers from firing someone unfairly - have actually reduced the number of jobs by millions of positions.

What is better - having 25,000 people per year fired for no valid - supported - legal - reason - COMPLETELY UNFAIR -

But increase the total jobs by 500,000?

Are protecting these 25K people worth the 500K lost jobs?

(I am making up numbers - but no doubt the additional new jobs created would be X times the number of people fired unfairly)

You're really locked onto this thing, aren't you? I bet you'd be a lot happier in the long run if you'd just learn to let things go.

[CaptCave]

Originally Posted by RustyL

Exactly, some of us get trapped into working for ass holes. Stastics show, people like their jobs, they dislike the people who run it.
I can only speak for myself, your employer is at will also. I do not agree with at will employement

No owes you a job or a living.

If you do not like your employment, make other arrangements. Go back to school, learn new skills, better yourself.

You aren't trapped unless you are unwilling to make the changes necessary to better your situation.

[Z71bill]

Originally Posted by Halojumper

You're really locked onto this thing, aren't you? I bet you'd be a lot happier in the long run if you'd just learn to let things go.

I don't understand your comment. My posts have not been nasty or even harsh - I am not unhappy about anything -

I did have my share of issues with people that needed to be fired. It sure would have been easier to just drop the hammer on the losers without the fear of a large legal bill.


Maybe if you don't like / agree with my posts you should put up some of your own experience - or put me on ignore - then you would be happier.

[Slug71]

Originally Posted by DanaT

So let me explain something.

If you piss management off, you will be gone. It doesnt matter if you get a warning or not. In fact, you probably made out better. In this case they probably terminated you but agreed not to fight unemployment with firing for termination.

If you make them document why they fired you with warnings, written warnings, performance plans, etc, management then has a very string case why you shouldnt get unemployment.

No matter how good you are, if you are a PITA and management has to spend too much time dealing with you then you wont be long in the company.

Also, I suspect there is a lot more to this story and you are not telling us how this really happened. Most of the time a manager isnt going to tell upper management that you didnt want her to say anything to them. Minor crap like that upper management has managers to take care of. I suspect you tried to move something you didnt like, up the chain and forced them to deal with it and you wont win against management. You should learn this.

There really isn't more to it.

On the 21st of Oct., a female courtesy clerk(under age) reported to a manager that a male(20 something) in dairy department had pressured her into having sex with him in his truck in the parking lot. The manager called down to our office and asked if she could come see us. She then changed her mind and asked for my partner to go up and see her. I was a little peeved by that and my partner also disagreed with that. He called our LP boss and told her what was happening. Next day I was fired.

In the 19th, one of the courtesy clerks knocked on our door three times and ran away. This happened during an investigation with a shoplifter. I know the manager that was present as a witness was peeved and reported it to upper management. Because I got along with staff, I suspect that it was my fault that the courtesy clerk did that.

A week before that, the store manager asked us to park where everyone else parks. We used to park behind the store and enter through the back where vendors usually come and go. We've always done this. I did ask my LP boss why this changed but we did start parking in the front of the store as requested.

Thats all thats happened in the recent couple of months that I know of.

But yes they didn't fight unemployment

[NeverMore1701]

Originally Posted by Slug71

There really isn't more to it.

On the 21st of Oct., a female courtesy clerk(under age) reported to a manager that a male(20 something) in dairy department had pressured her into having sex with him in his truck in the parking lot. The manager called down to our office and asked if she could come see us. She then changed her mind and asked for my partner to go up and see her. I was a little peeved by that and my partner also disagreed with that. He called our LP boss and told her what was happening. Next day I was fired.

In the 19th, one of the courtesy clerks knocked on our door three times and ran away. This happened during an investigation with a shoplifter. I know the manager that was present as a witness was peeved and reported it to upper management. Because I got along with staff, I suspect that it was my fault that the courtesy clerk did that.

A week before that, the store manager asked us to park where everyone else parks. We used to park behind the store and enter through the back where vendors usually come and go. We've always done this. I did ask my LP boss why this changed but we did start parking in the front of the store as requested.

Thats all thats happened in the recent couple of months that I know of.

But yes they didn't fight unemployment

Do you have another job yet?

[Slug71]

Originally Posted by Jbar4Ranch

Absolutely. He is an older man, 60 IIRC, retired from another job, and has a very sour attitude coupled with a caustic demeanor. He should have been fired several years ago, but for some reason the company won't allow the managers to take any disciplinary action against hourly employees. I had talked to him about his attitude, the hunting managers had talked to him about his attitude, and the store manager & assistant manager had talked to him about his attitude.

On the morning in question, I had tended to some business in the cash office, then walked back to the gun counter toward my office. When I passed the gun counter, "Chuck" looked at his watch and, loudly enough so that half the damn store could hear, "HA, late again, as usual". I said, "Piss off, Chuck" and continued to my office. The store manager had been looking for some time for a reason to terminate me, and this was his opportunity. The store manager is a younger man, I think he was only 25 when he took the store over, and he's done some things that don't sit well with me, not the least of which was several hundred dollars vandalism to my place that he and a couple of his friends did. I told them none of them needed to ever come back and that was the beginning of the end for me. He lost his private several hundred acre hunting, fishing, shooting, recreation area and got even.
I've seen this man actually punch one of the department managers, laying him out on the floor where he laid for at least a full minute holding his stomach before he attempted to get up. I've seen this man let one of his buddies, the archery lead, keep his job after being caught red handed on camera stealing an item from the store. He made him bring it back and that was the end of it. Nothing in his record, let alone not fired for it. Same with "Chuck" - he took a holster one day and was allowed to bring it back with no consequence.

I now work for the state of Montana as a "Delivery Services Driver" - good pay, weekends off, flexible hours, paid sick days, eleven paid holidays a year, but I don't enjoy it like I did that job.

Wow. You defs are better off away from there!

[kenpoprofessor]

Originally Posted by Hef

The only reason I have employees is to increase profits for myself. They are employed solely to increase the amount of work the business completes in a week, so I can invoice for more money (and thus more profit). If they aren't productive enough, and/or they make mistakes that cut into the profit, they get fired. If business slows down, I cut jobs as needed to stay profitable. I don't owe anybody a job.

That may sound harsh, but that is the reality of operating a small business in 2012. I do my best to land jobs to keep everyone working 40+hrs/wk but that doesn't always happen.

As for those who need to be fired, I am glad to operate in a state that doesn't interfere with my right to fire people as I see fit.

This, and as an employee, it's my job to continue to make the company money for my own benefit. I like getting paid, and if the employees don't perform, I want them gone as much as the bosses.

We had a couple of slackers in the company for 5-6 years, and only a few months ago did the boss finally put the hammer to them and get rid of them. They'd been talked to and talked to and continued the same performance, but they let it go on. When it finally started costing the company some serious $$ out of pocket to fix their mistakes, they let them go, no warning whatsoever. They came in on a Monday and got their last check; they thought they were going to work that day .

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

[Slug71]

Originally Posted by Z71bill

I think most larger companies stopped giving out references on past employees years ago. It does not matter why the person no longer works for the company - you still only give out the basic -

Start date, end date, maybe job held, if employee signed the release form you will agree to provide salary history.

Laid off is just a reason you were terminated -

I guess if you say - I was laid off it sounds better than - I was fired for being drunk & fighting on the job.

Did not know that about references.

[Slug71]

Originally Posted by Arquebus12

Good Lord...

You voted for Obama, didn't you?

Sure didn't

[Slug71]

Originally Posted by NeverMore1701

Do you have another job yet?

No still looking but think I might just bite the bullet and use the opportunity to move.

[Hef]

Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor

This, and as an employee, it's my job to continue to make the company money for my own benefit. I like getting paid, and if the employees don't perform, I want them gone as much as the bosses.

We had a couple of slackers in the company for 5-6 years, and only a few months ago did the boss finally put the hammer to them and get rid of them. They'd been talked to and talked to and continued the same performance, but they let it go on. When it finally started costing the company some serious $$ out of pocket to fix their mistakes, they let them go, no warning whatsoever. They came in on a Monday and got their last check; they thought they were going to work that day .

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

So true. When the employer has to waste money paying slackers, or pay to correct their mistakes/failures, it uses up money that could go to buying better tools and equipment for others to use, giving raises to the productive employees, bonuses, etc.

I truly want to give people raises. I want more money and I know they want the same. Who doesn't? But I can't do that when the slackers screw up and cut into the profits.

Not only that, but I know how miserable it is to go to work and have to tolerate working with lazy/stupid co-workers that you know are the reason why you haven't had a raise in a long time. I've fired a few of them as well.

[Slug71]

Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor

This, and as an employee, it's my job to continue to make the company money for my own benefit. I like getting paid, and if the employees don't perform, I want them gone as much as the bosses.

We had a couple of slackers in the company for 5-6 years, and only a few months ago did the boss finally put the hammer to them and get rid of them. They'd been talked to and talked to and continued the same performance, but they let it go on. When it finally started costing the company some serious $$ out of pocket to fix their mistakes, they let them go, no warning whatsoever. They came in on a Monday and got their last check; they thought they were going to work that day .

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

"Talked to and talked to" = warnings.
I would have canned them too. Probably a lot sooner.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by Hef

Sometimes I feel like employees think we just shake the magic money tree and payroll falls out of it....

In the same way that most who receive welfare, etc assume that the government just opens the magic money box to provide them with "benefits".

It's so damn pathetic that we have devolved to the point that many people cannot understand that business exists to make a profit for the owner(s), NOT to provide anyone with employment.

How have we fallen so far? How did we become so dumbed-down?

[professorpinki]

Originally Posted by Slug71

I know it has it's benefits like being able to quit. But do you think that it should be revised so that employers can't terminate without reason or warning?

With the way the economy is, I think employees should at least be given a verbal and/or written warning before being terminated and have the chance to 'fix' whatever the issue may be.

Seems there's so much talk about getting people back to work and creating job but what about keeping people at work?

I think that if the employer goes on firing people without reason they go out of business, because people hear of their unsavory practices and/or they can't handle their clients/consumers properly.

I think artificial regulation to the effects which you propose only murks the waters and interferes with the ability to choose the best candidate for the job, and to fire incompetents.

[doktarZues]

I work for a moderately sized company in Florida, which is a right to work state. In my neck of the woods and part of the company there are no unions. The HR policies that are in place make extremely hard to fire someone. In the 6 years I've been here, I've seen maybe a handful of people fired, all for grossly obvious reasons.

Earlier this year, and for the first time in my tenure, we experienced layoffs due to reduced revenue/profit. Having taken a stroll through all of this, I learned that when profitability is threatened, any and all bets are off regarding your employment status.

Long story short:
When business is good, you've got to really, really, really screw up bad/often to get fired. I suspect the company policies protect employees as good or better than most unions.

When business is bad, the company has provisions to reduce headcount and side step HR policies.

Does this unfairly target certain groups of people (older, higher payed employees?) Maybe, at least the potential is certainly there. There's something to be said for giving your heart and soul to a company and then have the rug pulled out from underneath you, and it's something entirely else for someone to think they deserve their big salary because of seniority, opposed to how much value they actually deliver to the company.

I think Florida and my company has it right.

[Brucev]

Re: OP. All the whining of the usual suspects and their supposed rationals for at will employment is all the reason any rational thinking man needs to oppose and vote against employers have the right to fire at will an employe. Simply do not care what if anything these usual suspects might want to say to justify their positions. Let them whine. Perhaps if they all get together, they can whine in harmony. Maybe. Regardless, let them whine till their vocal cords are frayed. Could not care less. Working men and women have every right not to be at the mercy of the whims of employers.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by Brucev

Re: OP. All the whining of the usual suspects and their supposed rationals for at will employment is all the reason any rational thinking man needs to oppose and vote against employers have the right to fire at will an employe. Simply do not care what if anything these usual suspects might want to say to justify their positions. Let them whine. Perhaps if they all get together, they can whine in harmony. Maybe. Regardless, let them whine till their vocal cords are frayed. Could not care less. Working men and women have every right not to be at the mercy of the whims of employers.

Yeah?
How many people do YOU employ?

[davsco]

OP sorry you lost your job. in this economy most employers are not paying for relocation, but some are, so definitely use this opportunity to hopefully get a future employer to pay for your relocation. that would be a great silver lining.

i agree with the employment at will concept. employees can always leave whenever they want so seems fair the employer can similarly terminate employment when and why they want. that said, employers who do this a lot will get a bad reputation and find it difficult to attract good employees.

[doktarZues]

Originally Posted by Brucev

Working men and women have every right not to be at the mercy of the whims of employers.

I would like to nominate this as one of the most ridiculous statements ever made on GT. I could spend hours pouring over how ignorant and ridiculous this sounds. Seriously.

(If I somehow missed a heavy dose of sarcasm, I apologize.)

[Hef]

Originally Posted by Brucev

Re: OP. All the whining of the usual suspects and their supposed rationals for at will employment is all the reason any rational thinking man needs to oppose and vote against employers have the right to fire at will an employe. Simply do not care what if anything these usual suspects might want to say to justify their positions. Let them whine. Perhaps if they all get together, they can whine in harmony. Maybe. Regardless, let them whine till their vocal cords are frayed. Could not care less. Working men and women have every right not to be at the mercy of the whims of employers.

Wrong, as usual.

Your job exists only because your employer has a need and you fill it. Should that need cease to exist, or you fail to fill it adequately, or it can be filled by someone else better and/or cheaper, your employment will end, as it should. This may come as a shock to you, but businesses don't hire employees just because they feel some humanitarian need to put people to work.

Do you own a business that has a payroll? Have you ever? How many people do/did you have on your weekly payroll, just as an annual average?

[CaptCave]

Originally Posted by Brucev

Re: OP. All the whining of the usual suspects and their supposed rationals for at will employment is all the reason any rational thinking man needs to oppose and vote against employers have the right to fire at will an employe. Simply do not care what if anything these usual suspects might want to say to justify their positions. Let them whine. Perhaps if they all get together, they can whine in harmony. Maybe. Regardless, let them whine till their vocal cords are frayed. Could not care less. Working men and women have every right not to be at the mercy of the whims of employers.

aye comrade, hail Obama

You're socialist ideas haven't worked out good for Europe, and they won't work here either.