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Old 11-20-2012, 11:45   #426
DanaT
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A good electrician MUST be able to apply that in the field with his/her tools, this is where the suits usually have the problem. Everything is so easy on paper until your the one doing the actual work.
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realistically it'd be cheaper to just replace the motors/drives/whatever else that 380 is supplying. The only time I've seen 380v equipment it was purchased from overseas we were asked if we could make it work. It was printing equipment for a printing press.
Typical union mentality. Its easier for to change equipment than ask me to do my job and get the power that is needed to the equipment.

Since you are such a good electrician, what parts would suggest changing to take a Nd:YAG laser that is 380V to a different voltage?
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:11   #427
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but me NOT knowing what an electronvolt is means he could do my trade
Its wiring. Nothing more.

Do you think it is harder to

A: Wire something something that is already designed or
B: Design elector-mechanical devices?
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:15   #428
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Seems like Dana is the kind of person who can dish it out but not take it, those are the people on the jobsites who have issues, none of those issues are ever good.
So, let me explain how non-union members work.

Yesterday, I had a meeting Switzerland. I got to my apartment late. I ate, surfed some, and went to bed.

I got up early this morning, was at work to get my day started and prepare for meeting at that started at 8am. Since then I have been in meetings, doing budgets for next year, meeting clients, trying to save people in the USAs jobs. Then starting about 5:30pm, the clients from the USA started calling. 7:00pm before I am done dealing with them. More meetings and somewhere around 7:30pm I had some free time.

And I dont get paid a single cent of overtime. Now how many union people would work more than 11 hours without overtime?
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:43   #429
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If an employee is not getting the job done and has been given a chance to rectify their performance the employer should be able to fire at will. Yeah they might end up on welfare, but better then than me the employer because of them not doing their job correctly.

Unions had their place 70 yrs. ago, now they are just a drag on the economy, no benefit whatsoever, only a liability to all.
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Old 11-20-2012, 14:20   #430
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Typical union mentality. Its easier for to change equipment than ask me to do my job and get the power that is needed to the equipment.

Since you are such a good electrician, what parts would suggest changing to take a Nd:YAG laser that is 380V to a different voltage?
How the hell would I know what a yag photon ****ing laser is?.
I wasn't talking in absolutes moron, you could com up with exceptions all day, there will always be **** that can only be done one way.
How would you get 380v when all we have is 480? What do you think it would cost?
Since its just wiring(your words-the wires already come in conduit and then the wire pulls itself right?)-what would happen to your secondary voltage readings on a delta-wye 480 primary/120/208 secondary with a bonded neutral vs non-bonded neutral?
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Old 11-20-2012, 14:25   #431
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There will be a ground fault issue.
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Old 11-20-2012, 14:30   #432
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How would you get 380v when all we have is 480?
Off the top of my head... You could use a transformer (if 480v 60Hz is ok) or a variable frequency drive (if you need the 50Hz, say for a motor).


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Old 11-20-2012, 14:52   #433
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At least you got the point. "WTF is an Nd:Yag laser". That is exactly correct.

You have no clue. Don't tell me how much easier it would be to change my equipment. If I ask an electrician to give me x volts, y amps, and z hertz, get me the damn power. I don't want to hear the union bs of "change your equipment, it would be easier than me doing my job"

So you really don't need to have any clue WHAT the equipment is or does. You need to know the power that is needed.


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Old 11-20-2012, 15:05   #434
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There will be a ground fault issue.
No, and that's not what I asked, what would differ about the voltage readings.
To be fair, if you reworded what you said it would be true if it was wired one way vs. the other. Neither scenario would 'cause' a GF. Come on, don't disappoint me now Dana. Really think about what electricity always wants to do.
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Off the top of my head... You could use a transformer (if 480v 60Hz is ok) or a variable frequency drive (if you need the 50Hz, say for a motor).


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You are exactly right, but 480 primary 380v secondary transformers are not exactly common, the equipment would be designed around 50 Hz.(and I'm sure you know vfd's are not cheap)
To make that work the cost would be huge, which is why I said realistically it'd probably be cheaper to change the equipment. That only applies if its possible though, apparently a yag laser can't be changed from its designed voltage, or the cost would outweigh the benefit of changing it.
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Old 11-20-2012, 15:24   #435
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480 VAC to 380 VAC transformers are not difficult to obtain...
Temco or Siemens for example.

But if the equipment is designed for 50 hz then it's still impractical and expensive, depending of course on the power required.


Contemporary European industrial and medical equipment is often designed to be adaptable to operation on U.S. power.
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Old 11-20-2012, 15:36   #436
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You are exactly right, but 480 primary 380v secondary transformers are not exactly common
There are 4 of them on eBay right now.
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Old 11-20-2012, 16:11   #437
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You are exactly right, but 480 primary 380v secondary transformers are not exactly common,
I have two in my storage shed.
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Old 11-20-2012, 16:18   #438
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At least you got the point. "WTF is an Nd:Yag laser". That is exactly correct.

You have no clue. Don't tell me how much easier it would be to change my equipment. If I ask an electrician to give me x volts, y amps, and z hertz, get me the damn power. I don't want to hear the union bs of "change your equipment, it would be easier than me doing my job"

So you really don't need to have any clue WHAT the equipment is or does. You need to know the power that is needed.


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Ya that makes sense, eliminate work(=money) for myself just cause I don't feel like doing it.
I'll do anything a customer wants, but you're saying I should offer no alternative, even if its cheaper? That also makes a lot of sense.
Perfect example of horrible management right there, nice of you to admit it.
Do you by chance work for hostess?
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480 VAC to 380 VAC transformers are not difficult to obtain...
Temco or Siemens for example.

But if the equipment is designed for 50 hz then it's still impractical and expensive, depending of course on the power required.


Contemporary European industrial and medical equipment is often designed to be adaptable to operation on U.S. power.
You're correct, they are more common than I assumed, I figured a larger one would be harder to find, there was one 150kva on there, but like you said the other points still apply.
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Old 11-20-2012, 23:39   #439
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Ya that makes sense, eliminate work(=money) for myself just cause I don't feel like doing it.
I'll do anything a customer wants, but you're saying I should offer no alternative, even if its cheaper? That also makes a lot of sense.
Perfect example of horrible management right there, nice of you to admit it.
Do you by chance work for hostess
I am glad that you think that having the proper equipment using the proper power is poor management. Havent you been *****ing about only unions ensure that you get the proper equipment and that companies are too cheap to provide it without unions. Now you say that is poor management.

You have a very short sighted view. As in one job. That is why you are doing what you are doing.

The piece of equipment I am referring is real. You can buy cheap Nd:YAG lasers. Or you can buy good ones. Good ones are 380V. I don't give a damn if you buy a Swiss or German one, 380V. You want a Chinese knock-off? Maybe you can have 230V. But if you want a laser that will be stable for 10 years, you buy a good one.

When I spend 7 figures on a laser system, a transformer is not an issue. And these are for "small" system.

You really don't get that a lot more goes into decisions than what the guy on the production line thinks or what you pulling power thinks.

One of the worst things on production lines is PEOPLE and union workers are worse because of the grievance procedures, warnings, etc. I have seen many time where 100s of thousands are spent finding and fixing a production problem and in the end "Joe" decided that he knew better and took a short cut or decided to set a machine different. But when problems arose Joe forgot to mention what he did. Worse, Joe effed up $2m in product because he chose not to follow instructions and do it his way. But now Joe wants a warning. The non-union shop he is out. The union shop he gets an extra 3 weeks off paid because of job stress and a pay increase for extra initiative for identifying a problem that never existed before Joe decided not to follow instructions.

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Old 11-21-2012, 05:41   #440
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I am glad that you think that having the proper equipment using the proper power is poor management. Havent you been *****ing about only unions ensure that you get the proper equipment and that companies are too cheap to provide it without unions. Now you say that is poor management.

You have a very short sighted view. As in one job. That is why you are doing what you are doing.

The piece of equipment I am referring is real. You can buy cheap Nd:YAG lasers. Or you can buy good ones. Good ones are 380V. I don't give a damn if you buy a Swiss or German one, 380V. You want a Chinese knock-off? Maybe you can have 230V. But if you want a laser that will be stable for 10 years, you buy a good one.

When I spend 7 figures on a laser system, a transformer is not an issue. And these are for "small" system.

You really don't get that a lot more goes into decisions than what the guy on the production line thinks or what you pulling power thinks.

One of the worst things on production lines is PEOPLE and union workers are worse because of the grievance procedures, warnings, etc. I have seen many time where 100s of thousands are spent finding and fixing a production problem and in the end "Joe" decided that he knew better and took a short cut or decided to set a machine different. But when problems arose Joe forgot to mention what he did. Worse, Joe effed up $2m in product because he chose not to follow instructions and do it his way. But now Joe wants a warning. The non-union shop he is out. The union shop he gets an extra 3 weeks off paid because of job stress and a pay increase for extra initiative for identifying a problem that never existed before Joe decided not to follow instructions.

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A- ya, because I didn't say the cost has to be worth changing said equipment for it to be beneficial. Reading comprehension . Learn it.
B- there is nothing wrong with a transformer/vfd-they are used in places I can guarantee are more critical to stay running than your product production line..
I seem to remember you stating you could draw or wire a simple circuit and I couldn't, or something to that tune.
You still didn't answer my question, you won't find a diagram or be able to google the answer. Its just wiring(your words)
Your the one who called me a smartass for 'questioning your knowledge of 3p 380.'
The answer to that question is a mistake made by people who THINK they know what they're doing all the time. It gets people killed.
I bet devildog could answer it, he doesn't seem to be a bluffer, unlike you.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:58   #441
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If you bond your neutral to ground, you have zero potential between the two.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:13   #442
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I have two in my storage shed.


I used to stack them five feet high in Korea... used them for sand bags.



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Old 11-21-2012, 15:43   #443
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If you bond your neutral to ground, you have zero potential between the two.
Yup, that would be true at the point of the bond if bonded.
I picked up a small 380v transformer for the laser, who can I bill this to?
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