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Old 11-17-2012, 14:20   #376
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Every business owner would love to see the Unions go away so they could hire whoever is willing to work cheapest. Must suck when all the skilled workers are united and refuse to work under a certain rate and get kicked around. Here the economy is crap and some business owners can't take advantage of people being desparate for work.

Like I said, I work in the automotive repair industry. The problem is that most shops all do the same crap (messing with pay, free work, ect) and it's hard to find a shop that doesn't do these things, especially in this economy. Perhaps if there was a Union presence, either the Union would come in and put an end to it or companies knowing that we could unionize would stop this crap.
If companies were making their people work for free, you wouldn't need a union to protect you. You could just sue their asses off.

Also, the union is preventing people who are desperate for work from getting it. If they can do the same work at the same quality for less money, then they should be the ones doing the work.

But in the minds of union workers, the companies that provide their livelihoods are evil greedy bastards, and the union is full of saints. It's not that simple. Everyone is looking out for their own interests, except the union has a monopoly on labor which creates an unfair situation and hurts the company, it's customers, it's investors, and other workers.
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:22   #377
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Can anyone name a few heavily unionized private industries that have not been crushed by union termites?
UPS? I'm not familiar with their financials though.

Last edited by AWoods; 11-17-2012 at 14:22..
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:24   #378
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You're not playing fair lol
How much money would you place on one of the union electricians being able to give an answer? After all, they are highly trained and skilled...
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:04   #379
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How much money would you place on one of the union electricians being able to give an answer? After all, they are highly trained and skilled...
None, because it is probably in the union contract that they cannot answer such questions without earning overtime.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:04   #380
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It a good thing that I am not freezing without heat waiting for a union electrician to hook up my heater. I would be damn near dead by now.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:46   #381
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I'm an at-will employee now. I also have been a union worker. Honestly, there are very few differences in the work rules. To get fired from an at-will company(at least mine), you have to be a genuine knucklehead, ignoring several warnings to improve job performance.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:07   #382
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It a good thing that I am not freezing without heat waiting for a union electrician to hook up my heater. I would be damn near dead by now.
Did you not notice it's Sunday? It's hard enough to get them to do any work Monday-Friday. Do you honestly think you will get them to lift a finger on a weekend? You better get one of those non union guys on the phone before you develop hypothermia.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:11   #383
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UPS? I'm not familiar with their financials though.
UPS is one company -

Industry would be package delivery - how is the post office been doing lately?

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Old 11-18-2012, 10:41   #384
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Did you not notice it's Sunday? It's hard enough to get them to do any work Monday-Friday. Do you honestly think you will get them to lift a finger on a weekend? You better get one of those non union guys on the phone before you develop hypothermia.



He can't find the answer is his little cheat sheet...

Should I give him some help? I will be nice. Start by converting btu into kWh.....
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:23   #385
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So lets see what "buying union" gets us.

For my union electrician maybe you can show how good a union is.



I come to you with a 24V DC heater. The heater has a maximum output of 30,000btu. I am kinda a cheap guy and only want to run this with the minimum size copper wire to a location 31 meters away from the transformer. What size of copper wire should I use and how large of a circuit breaker should be put in line?
Ooh a challenge.
24v 30,000 btu electric heat?
I can tell you off the top of my head the answer will be an extremely high amperage and wire size, voltage has no bearing on that besides voltage drop.
That's like a small house size heater operating off 24v?
Gimme an min, I gotta get the codebook to figure out voltage drop
OK,
30000 btu heat=8798va or watts
8798/24v=366.6a
366.6a by my NEC standards would require 500's(500 kcmills)
Shooting for a less than 5% voltage drop, 500s
Vd= 2*12.9*366.6(load)*102(dist.)/500000(cmills)=1.92-too much drop
Bump up the 500's to 750's voltage drop would be 1.28 or 22.72v- you'd be close there to 5%

To show math is right, assume a 1500w space heater @ 120v
12.5 amp load, would work on a 15a circuit (14 copper will do)with not much else on it.
At 31m or 102 feet, you'd have to bump up to 12 copper to achieve a 5%vd.
2*12.9*12.5*102/6530(#12 cmills)=5.037
120v-5.037=114.9v
At 31m
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:49   #386
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Originally Posted by di11igaf View Post
Ooh a challenge.
24v 30,000 btu electric heat?
I can tell you off the top of my head the answer will be an extremely high amperage and wire size, voltage has no bearing on that besides voltage drop.
That's like a small house size heater operating off 24v?
Gimme an min, I gotta get the codebook to figure out voltage drop
You can't calculate it?

I'm no electrician, but I am a physicist...

30,000 BTU is about 8800 W (assuming that the 30,000 is BTU per hour, which seems to be the standard).

P=IV, so

The Okie Corral

Now, I don't know what code allows in terms of voltage drop, but I assume you want no more than ~10% or so. Assuming copper wire, the resistance is given by

The Okie Corral

The resistivity of copper is about 17 nΩm. A 10% voltage drop is ~2.4 V, V=IR gives a desired resistance of ~7 mΩ, plug all that in and you get a required wire cross-sectional area of ~8^-5 m^2 or a diameter (assuming round wire) of about 1cm.

See, and I don't even need to belong to a union.
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Old 11-18-2012, 15:08   #387
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
You can't calculate it?

I'm no electrician, but I am a physicist...

30,000 BTU is about 8800 W (assuming that the 30,000 is BTU per hour, which seems to be the standard).

P=IV, so

The Okie Corral

Now, I don't know what code allows in terms of voltage drop, but I assume you want no more than ~10% or so. Assuming copper wire, the resistance is given by

The Okie Corral

The resistivity of copper is about 17 nΩm. A 10% voltage drop is ~2.4 V, V=IR gives a desired resistance of ~7 mΩ, plug all that in and you get a required wire cross-sectional area of ~8^-5 m^2 or a diameter (assuming round wire) of about 1cm.

See, and I don't even need to belong to a union.
Solid or stranded?
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Old 11-18-2012, 15:16   #388
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Originally Posted by di11igaf View Post
Ooh a challenge.
24v 30,000 btu electric heat?
I can tell you off the top of my head the answer will be an extremely high amperage and wire size, voltage has no bearing on that besides voltage drop.
That's like a small house size heater operating off 24v?
Gimme an min, I gotta get the codebook to figure out voltage drop
OK,
30000 btu heat=8798va or watts
8798/24v=366.6a
366.6a by my NEC standards would require 500's(500 kcmills)
Shooting for a less than 5% voltage drop, 500s
Vd= 2*12.9*366.6(load)*102(dist.)/500000(cmills)=1.92-too much drop
Bump up the 500's to 750's voltage drop would be 1.28 or 22.72v- you'd be close there to 5%

To show math is right, assume a 1500w space heater @ 120v
12.5 amp load, would work on a 15a circuit (14 copper will do)with not much else on it.
At 31m or 102 feet, you'd have to bump up to 12 copper to achieve a 5%vd.
2*12.9*12.5*102/6530(#12 cmills)=5.037
120v-5.037=114.9v
At 31m
I love how he has an answer a day later and conveniently in the post right after DanaT gives him a clue. That is union talent at it's finest folks.

Last edited by Roger1079; 11-18-2012 at 15:19..
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Old 11-18-2012, 15:23   #389
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You can't calculate it?

I'm no electrician, but I am a physicist...


.
I don't memorize what the cmills are for smaller wire, you have to go by what the nec dictates, since all manufacturers vary a little, bigger wire is obvious.
You also have to go by the resistance stated per KM or 100' in the NEC. There's other ways to do it, that's what I gotta go by at work.
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Old 11-18-2012, 15:24   #390
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I love how he has an answer a day later and conveniently in the post right after DanaT gives him a clue. That is union talent at it's finest folks.
Please, it took me a day to figure out how to convert btu to watts? Google it and you could have an answer in 10 sec.
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Old 11-18-2012, 15:39   #391
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I don't memorize what the cmills are for smaller wire, you have to go by what the nec dictates, since all manufacturers vary a little, bigger wire is obvious.
You also have to go by the resistance stated per KM or 100' in the NEC. There's other ways to do it, that's what I gotta go by at work.
So, you don't actually understand the physics behind what you do, you just look things up in a book or table because that's how you were taught to do it.

I'm sure you have lots of experience that I don't. I have no idea how to wire up anything beyond electronic scientific equipment. I wouldn't have the first clue how to start wiring a house. Yet I was still able to come up with the same answer as you, literally off the top of my head, in under 5 minutes with just a calculator.

Your falling back on a default answer of "that's what's in the book" is a microcosm of what's wrong with the union mindset. I'm not an electrician and I don't pretend to be one--but at the same time, electricity isn't some magical mysterious box that only the union knows how to operate. Anyone, union or not, can learn what they need to know.
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Old 11-18-2012, 15:55   #392
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I've been a carpenter for 20 years. I've worked around union guys but never joined a union, nor would I ever consider it. At first, I didn't join because I knew exactly how good I am at what I do and could negotiate my employment agreements successfully without outside help. I am very good at what I do, I know it, and people who sought to hire me know it too.

As time went on, I saw how unions operate, and wanted no part of it. They extort high wages from businesses. They protect the mediocre, slow, lazy, incompetents, and substance abusers from being fired when they really should be. They create the conditions that allow 4 men to stand around and watch 1 work, while all 5 get paid. With the carpenters union, the old guys try not to teach the young guys any more than they have to as a way to protect their own jobs. I wanted no part of it.

As an employer, I refuse to let a group of people who have no skin in the game dictate to me how the business will operate. If the union wants to come in and write me a check, say $60,000 per employee, I will sell them shares and then they can have a say. Otherwise, they can bite me.
Explain this to me
How do they protect the slow, when I could be laid off at any time for any reason, business owners, union or not do it for one reason profit.
Why would they keep the slow and lazy?do you think they don't want the best they can get, especially since they would be paying the journeymen the same?
Not only that- were drug and alcohol tested before sent to the job, by the contractor. If they require it, a background check. So how do we promote substance abuse?
Now for 5 guys doing the job of 1? Do you know who the only one to request manpower from a union hall? The business owner.
If a job requires 2 guys, and was bid that way, which it would be we have to win bids also, I'm sure you know most company's these days automatically go low bid, why would the owner send and pay 10 guys to do it? Huh? Wouldn't be in business very long now would we, one job like that and doors would close.
Finally as to unions guys not teaching the younger ones?where do you come up with this ****- of all things known I would hope anyone would agree unions train the apprentices better. EVERYONE is required to do 5 years of school and 10,000 hours OTJ training. The younger guys will be the ones paying the older guys pensions, it wouldn't make sense to NOT teach them.
The ibew spends hundreds of millions of dollars a year training the apprentices, carpenters not much behind that.
Where do you send your apprentices? Let me guess , no where-you 'teach them my way on the job'.
How do you weed out bad ones?
Here's how it goes for us-theres a test to even join the union, not electrical at all. The dumbest fail here and go back working non-union.(these are the guys who didn't even tell you they did it when they took off that one day)
The next dumbest or ones not serious fail out of first year, so on and so on.
There's only 2 days of school allowed to be missed a year, and it better be a damn good reason. Apprentices are also randomly drug tested 2 times a year all 5 years. 1st failure means 2000 hour fine and a year repeat. 2nd time is out the door. Where do these failures go?
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Old 11-18-2012, 15:57   #393
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So, you don't actually understand the physics behind what you do, you just look things up in a book or table because that's how you were taught to do it.

I'm sure you have lots of experience that I don't. I have no idea how to wire up anything beyond electronic scientific equipment. I wouldn't have the first clue how to start wiring a house. Yet I was still able to come up with the same answer as you, literally off the top of my head, in under 5 minutes with just a calculator.

Your falling back on a default answer of "that's what's in the book" is a microcosm of what's wrong with the union mindset. I'm not an electrician and I don't pretend to be one--but at the same time, electricity isn't some magical mysterious box that only the union knows how to operate. Anyone, union or not, can learn what they need to know.
I didn't say that and I didn't say you were wrong, I said I figured it out how I would at work for a legal install, that's it.
Everything an electrician does is governed by the NEC, they set the rules, some things have to be don't by the tables THEY set to be done legally, that's all I meant by that.
The answer is not in the book, certain variables of the answer are that I must go from.
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Old 11-18-2012, 16:00   #394
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Please, it took me a day to figure out how to convert btu to watts? Google it and you could have an answer in 10 sec.
I guess it was a coincidence then. My apologies.
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Old 11-18-2012, 16:03   #395
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Explain this to me
How do they protect the slow, when I could be laid off at any time for any reason, business owners, union or not do it for one reason profit.
Why would they keep the slow and lazy?do you think they don't want the best they can get, especially since they would be paying the journeymen the same?
Not only that- were drug and alcohol tested before sent to the job, by the contractor. If they require it, a background check. So how do we promote substance abuse?
Now for 5 guys doing the job of 1? Do you know who the only one to request manpower from a union hall? The business owner.
If a job requires 2 guys, and was bid that way, which it would be we have to win bids also, I'm sure you know most company's these days automatically go low bid, why would the owner send and pay 10 guys to do it? Huh? Wouldn't be in business very long now would we, one job like that and doors would close.
Finally as to unions guys not teaching the younger ones?where do you come up with this ****- of all things known I would hope anyone would agree unions train the apprentices better. EVERYONE is required to do 5 years of school and 10,000 hours OTJ training. The younger guys will be the ones paying the older guys pensions, it wouldn't make sense to NOT teach them.
The ibew spends hundreds of millions of dollars a year training the apprentices, carpenters not much behind that.
Where do you send your apprentices? Let me guess , no where-you 'teach them my way on the job'.
How do you weed out bad ones?
Here's how it goes for us-theres a test to even join the union, not electrical at all. The dumbest fail here and go back working non-union.(these are the guys who didn't even tell you they did it when they took off that one day)
The next dumbest or ones not serious fail out of first year, so on and so on.
There's only 2 days of school allowed to be missed a year, and it better be a damn good reason. Apprentices are also randomly drug tested 2 times a year all 5 years. 1st failure means 2000 hour fine and a year repeat. 2nd time is out the door. Where do these failures go?
Weird. The IBEW I was a part of only required the filling out of a form if I remember right. I sure as crap didn't have to go to countless hours of school and apprenticeship.
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Old 11-18-2012, 16:16   #396
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Weird. The IBEW I was a part of only required the filling out of a form if I remember right. I sure as crap didn't have to go to countless hours of school and apprenticeship.
And like I said, I'm talking about construction skilled labor unions. I said I can't speak for ever union, nor do I agree with every one.
If you wanted to be an ibew electrician, that's what would have been required of you.
I bust my ass every single day, and every guy who has worked with or for me has largely done the same, its pisses me off when everyone assumes we are slackers, when I know what I do every day.
Does it piss you off when people insist all gun owners will go nuts and either kill someone, want to kill someone, or will shoot themselves by accident because of a few bad people? It does me too, and in here its becoming that same situation.
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Old 11-18-2012, 16:39   #397
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Explain this to me
How do they protect the slow, when I could be laid off at any time for any reason, business owners, union or not do it for one reason profit.
Why would they keep the slow and lazy?do you think they don't want the best they can get, especially since they would be paying the journeymen the same?
Not only that- were drug and alcohol tested before sent to the job, by the contractor. If they require it, a background check. So how do we promote substance abuse?
Now for 5 guys doing the job of 1? Do you know who the only one to request manpower from a union hall? The business owner.
If a job requires 2 guys, and was bid that way, which it would be we have to win bids also, I'm sure you know most company's these days automatically go low bid, why would the owner send and pay 10 guys to do it? Huh? Wouldn't be in business very long now would we, one job like that and doors would close.
Finally as to unions guys not teaching the younger ones?where do you come up with this ****- of all things known I would hope anyone would agree unions train the apprentices better. EVERYONE is required to do 5 years of school and 10,000 hours OTJ training. The younger guys will be the ones paying the older guys pensions, it wouldn't make sense to NOT teach them.
The ibew spends hundreds of millions of dollars a year training the apprentices, carpenters not much behind that.
Where do you send your apprentices? Let me guess , no where-you 'teach them my way on the job'.
How do you weed out bad ones?
Here's how it goes for us-theres a test to even join the union, not electrical at all. The dumbest fail here and go back working non-union.(these are the guys who didn't even tell you they did it when they took off that one day)
The next dumbest or ones not serious fail out of first year, so on and so on.
There's only 2 days of school allowed to be missed a year, and it better be a damn good reason. Apprentices are also randomly drug tested 2 times a year all 5 years. 1st failure means 2000 hour fine and a year repeat. 2nd time is out the door. Where do these failures go?
I can't speak for your experience, as unions vary in how they operate. I can only speak of what I have experienced in 20 years of being a carpenter. What I have seen is pathetic.

The "5 guys watching 1 work" example was something I've seen often, though I had a particular day in mind when posted it. They were union plumbers milking the clock at the plumbing company's expense.

Based on what I've seen, the unions represented at jobs where I have worked do not test apprentice applicants and they provide little, if any, education. Substance abuse was common, and work ethic was uncommon.

I was trained on the job. I have trained many more on the job. Some have gone on to start successful businesses of their own. My training has served me well. I am a master carpenter, and as I have said before, I am willing to put my work up against the best of what the union has to offer.

And I don't hang drywall because that isn't carpentry, regardless of what the union says.

As for weeding out the bad ones, I have hired and fired hundreds of people, so I know what to look for in applicants. I also know what to watch for with new hires, and I am not afraid to fire people. If there's a chance that a talk will square him away, he'll get it once, but otherwise he's shown the door. Random drug tests help too.
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Old 11-18-2012, 17:37   #398
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I can't speak for your experience, as unions vary in how they operate. I can only speak of what I have experienced in 20 years of being a carpenter. What I have seen is pathetic.

The "5 guys watching 1 work" example was something I've seen often, though I had a particular day in mind when posted it. They were union plumbers milking the clock at the plumbing company's expense.

Based on what I've seen, the unions represented at jobs where I have worked do not test apprentice applicants and they provide little, if any, education. Substance abuse was common, and work ethic was uncommon.

I was trained on the job. I have trained many more on the job. Some have gone on to start successful businesses of their own. My training has served me well. I am a master carpenter, and as I have said before, I am willing to put my work up against the best of what the union has to offer.

And I don't hang drywall because that isn't carpentry, regardless of what the union says.

As for weeding out the bad ones, I have hired and fired hundreds of people, so I know what to look for in applicants. I also know what to watch for with new hires, and I am not afraid to fire people. If there's a chance that a talk will square him away, he'll get it once, but otherwise he's shown the door. Random drug tests help too.
Every electrical, carpentry, pipefitting, ironworking union in this country has an apprentiship. Every single one. That's not debatable. So you saw this of the union guys, in your years have you ever seen a dumb non-union worker or slacker?
Here's one thing I can tell you whether you agree or not. I've seen far more slackers/dumbasses/hacks working for non-union contractors than unions. You can deny it to make a point, but we both know the truth. We are higher paid, higher pay attracts higher quality workers. Period. Training is 100% required of us, its not on the non-union side. Since we have higher pay and better benefits on average, we get A LOT of applicants, but not all can be accepted, we only take in what we can support, therefore only the best that apply get to start our apprentiship.
I won't say your not a good carpenter, I'm sure you are. I'm not saying there's no good non-union electricians out there-i know there is, I've worked with plenty and I worked as one.
On average though, I see a whole lot more bottom of the barrel non-union workers. Our bottom of the barrel from what I've seen compete with the non-unions best.
The only way to get in without doing our apprentiship is organizing in. This requires proof of 10,000 hours and to pass a test. Most fail it, but the ones who do pass it are generally still not as capable as the ones who were trained from the beginning by our program.
Someone here said ibew were kicked out of Disney for a jobs taking too long or something. Absolutely false. My brother works out local 606 Orlando after he finished full sail university, he still works at Disney.
We have a training center inside there FFS.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQniy-uGo78
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Old 11-18-2012, 17:46   #399
Hef
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Originally Posted by di11igaf View Post
Every electrical, carpentry, pipefitting, ironworking union in this country has an apprentiship. Every single one. That's not debatable. So you saw this of the union guys, in your years have you ever seen a dumb non-union worker or slacker?
Here's one thing I can tell you whether you agree or not. I've seen far more slackers/dumbasses/hacks working for non-union contractors than unions. You can deny it to make a point, but we both know the truth. We are higher paid, higher pay attracts higher quality workers. Period. Training is 100% required of us, its not on the non-union side. Since we have higher pay and better benefits on average, we get A LOT of applicants, but not all can be accepted, we only take in what we can support, therefore only the best that apply get to start our apprentiship.
I won't say your not a good carpenter, I'm sure you are. I'm not saying there's no good non-union electricians out there-i know there is, I've worked with plenty and I worked as one.
On average though, I see a whole lot more bottom of the barrel non-union workers. Our bottom of the barrel from what I've seen compete with the non-unions best.
The only way to get in without doing our apprentiship is organizing in. This requires proof of 10,000 hours and to pass a test. Most fail it, but the ones who do pass it are generally still not as capable as the ones who were trained from the beginning by our program.
At this point I would say we should simply agree to disagree. Our experiences have formed vastly different opinions, and I doubt either of us will persuade the other. We still share a common interest in firearms, and obviously are both deeply invested in our trades.

I see no point in flogging this horse any further.
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:26   #400
di11igaf
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At this point I would say we should simply agree to disagree. Our experiences have formed vastly different opinions, and I doubt either of us will persuade the other. We still share a common interest in firearms, and obviously are both deeply invested in our trades.

I see no point in flogging this horse any further.
I agree, I should stick to general glocking. I'll end here. here's independent analysis of 900 construction projects (funded by non-union $), plus there ones who did the analysis were not union. This is only construction and skilled trade unions, ie: me.
Seems to verify exactly what I've seen the last 15 years.
Off topic- the conduit run at 3:50 is artwork.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw610qHGyM8
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