[di11igaf]

Originally Posted by Z71bill

Oldie but still good - I actually used this article to help beat back a union organizing effort at one of the plants I managed.

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/ar...d=2002_3571467

"But it has become a sour moment for other labor leaders because the Teamsters didn't use union construction workers.
They were told by the Teamsters that union contractors cost too much."

The Teamsters union guys were even smart enough to figure out using union electricians cost too much!

There's always somebody willing to do it cheaper.
Ya I remember when that went down you wanna know the really funny thing ?
They DID hire both union electricians and pipefitters to fix ****ed up **** at that hall less than 2 years after it was done, the contractors who originally did the work only warrantied it for a year. The sad part is it took only a few years for problems to start popping up. I propably still have the newsletter with the article.
I bet you left that part out of your little anti-union organizing effort didn't you.

and here look I can do it too- even the non-union contractors agree ibew electricians are better trained, higher skilled workers.
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...p~20000210.php

Question: Hi mike, my name is Charlie, and I own Ace Electrical Service (made up name) in South Florida (made up location). I just spent the weekend watching your estimating videos and it was great. I am writing to ask you your thoughts on the industry's labor problems. First, I will tell you a little about myself, I was trained properly as an electrician in Massachusetts and I ran my own company there for 16 years and had good help. I have had my own company here in Florida for 4 years and the help seems to be getting worse. I have always been nonunion.

My company does commercial buildouts and service. I am having trouble finding good electricians and have spent a fortune on advertising for help. It is not a money or benefits problem, I pay high wages; provide paid vacations and health insurance at no cost to my employees. But today It is hard to find a person with a good drivers license, never mind electrical skills and in this economy, the wages are not far off the local union scale.

I am thinking of a possible change to a union shop to get skilled labor, and I have spoke to the local union business agent (BA). Please write back and tell me your thoughts on this issue. A company is only as good as its people are and I need some good people.

As a general contractor, the biggest problem I see in the industry is the lack of a well-trained workforce.
In my area, which is Las Vegas, twenty years ago residential construction was totally union. Over the this period of time the Home Builders have become largely nonunion and as a result, I see less and less skilled labor in the industry.

I have concluded that without an experienced construction workforce, we are building entire developments of inferior housing. When the Union had a strong presence in the Industry, we had a well-trained labor force. As it stands today, the work force is unskilled and unqualified.

This is reflected in the quality of new construction today. Poor workers, equals poor supervisors, equal Poor Quality.

Richard Franklin, Las Vegas, Nevada

I too am a small contractor performing the same kind of work as the writer. After running into the same type of problems as he, I decided to talk with the local (IBEW Local 595), I found that the process was very straight forward, and although it took me several months to final decide to organize, I did. I am very happy to report that this was a wise decision. Now, I have access to a SKILLED labor pool as well as continuing education courses for myself.

Ed Broome, California

I am a Union Electrician and a Union Electrical Contractor (never been nonunion). I have known some nonunion contractors that have become union and they said that they should have done it sooner. They cannot believe that all they have to do is show the men the job and then just make sure that the checks are there once a week. No more going to the job in the morning making sure that everyone is working and then being there at quitting time to make sure that everyone has worked all day. Yes, it does involve some extra paperwork but no more time then it takes to baby-sit a job. In addition, you can be assured that the job is done right the first time and on time.

[AWoods]

There may always be someone who can do it cheaper, but there is not always someone who can do it just as well for cheaper. Business owners generally know that you get what you pay for.

Well the labor cartels shut down another business today, costing 18k people their jobs, shutting down service to the customer, and hurting those foolish enough to invest in a union shop.

If this had been a right-to-work situation, the company would not have had to shut down.

[Z71bill]

Originally Posted by di11igaf

There's always somebody willing to do it cheaper.
Ya I remember when that went down you wanna know the really funny thing ?
They DID hire both union electricians and pipefitters to fix ****ed up **** at that hall less than 2 years after it was done, the contractors who originally did the work only warrantied it for a year. The sad part is it took only a few years for problems to start popping up. I propably still have the newsletter with the article.
I bet you left that part out of your little anti-union organizing effort didn't you.

and here look I can do it too- even the non-union contractors agree ibew electricians are better trained, higher skilled workers.
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...p~20000210.php

Still funny as hell that Teamsters see NO ADDED VALUE to union labor when they are paying for the work -

[DanaT]

I hope every union employee gets the same. Unemployment line.


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[kat1950]

The unions with their high wages are killing this country, as for construction they take 3 times as long to do something as none union, I live here in Florida and thank god we are with virtually no unions, in the Disney days union workers were so slow, Disney had to call in non union contractors to meet deadlines.

Just look what they did to the American auto industry. Have relatives that work for GM, if you want to see a disgrace, just go to one of their plants on Monday morning before the gates are opened and look at what is getting paid 3 times more an hour than Toyota in Kentucky, Nissan in Tennessee, BMW in Alabama, etc,etc, it truly is a sicking sight.

[CaptCave]

Originally Posted by di11igaf

Firstly I'll respond and answer as long as I'm not attacked like I'm personally responsible for the end of civilization since I'm a union electrician. I did this to better myself and support my family, period. I come to this forum cause I own glocks.
Secondly,
Let's look at WHY they went on strike, its the members choice to strike or not. Not only that, if a union strikes, the companies can replace the workers with non-union workers. Back to this later. You said-
'Simply put the money wasnt there to pay them more. A company doesnt go to bankruptcy and liquidate assets if it doesnt have to. So, 5000 greedy,low skill workers close a company and force 18500 out of jobs.'
You said it like they were asking for a raise, if this is what you heard its not true. As you said these are already low skill jobs, as far as money in the pocket, probably not much above minimum wage, but they had decent benefits. Hostess want to cut benefits almost in half, as well as cut in the pocket pay. This has been going on for a WHILE now, this just didn't happen over night. Hostess has filed bankruptcy twice in 8 years, but their top 20 got a ****ing 80% salary increase, up until recently record bonuses also. When they stopped the bonuses, they converted part of the performance based bonuses for the top into salary instead, cause they were performing oh so well with 2 backruptcy's. THIS is why they went on strike, a few months ago the top decided they would bump salaries to where they were previously, so ultimately they made no sacrifice, why should the worker, who ISNT raking in millions? Its the owners right to pay whatever salaries he wants to his top management, but its also the workers right to dis-approve of it and not just take it in the ass.
Should they have striked? I don't know, but put yourself in their shoes, they were probably livid. If it were non-union workers, instead of striking, many would of quit. What would you have done. I don't agree with every thing every union does, I'm not huge on public unions and I know they're not necessary in every industry. I'm in a private union, where the workers and the business owners get along just fine, sometimes even work side by side, as I do with the owner of the contractor I work for. I happen to believe they are a benefit here, obviously so do all the contractors who opened their doors ready to hire our members.
OK, the end for now.

So a 100% reduction in pay and benefits was better than what Mgmt was offering...

Another 18k Jobs gone...thanks, bakers, bums, and grain moochers union.

And another 18k people on the government bill...

YAY UNIONS

[Roger1079]

Originally Posted by kat1950

The unions with their high wages are killing this country, as for construction they take 3 times as long to do something as none union, I live here in Florida and thank god we are with virtually no unions, in the Disney days union workers were so slow, Disney had to call in non union contractors to meet deadlines.

It doesn't surprise me. I have seen union construction workers do their thing. One guy taking measurements, another doing the framing, another putting up the drywall, and yet another person doing the taping, and another for the mudding. 5 guys to do the job of 2 and they do more sitting and watching not including 15 minute breaks every hour. All while making double what a non union worker makes. It is an absolute joke that anyone defends these organizations.

The bottom line is anyone that feels they need a union for job security either is working for the wrong company or is doubtful of their own value to the company they work for.

BY THE WAY, DI11IGAF, YOU STILL HAVE NOT RESPONDED WITH YOUR OPINION OF MY EXAMPLE OF A UNION AT WORK. I REALLY DO WANT TO SEE WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH THE WAY MY EXPERIENCE WENT DOWN.

[devildog2067]

Originally Posted by di11igaf

Firstly I'll respond and answer as long as I'm not attacked like I'm personally responsible for the end of civilization since I'm a union electrician.

You need to grow some thicker skin.

I did this to better myself and support my family, period.

That's the right reason.

No one is opposed to the idea of unions. People banding together to better represent their collective interests is something we are all free to do.

The problem is that in this country, unions don't do a good job of representing your interests--they represent their own. Unions should care about the long-term health of the companies their members work for, and they should tell the truth.

And the truth is, a non-union electrician can do just as good of a job as a union electrician. Do they always? No. But if you quit the union tomorrow and took your skills elsewhere, you'd be just as good an electrician as you are today. Being part of a union doesn't magically make you better. So idiotic hyperbolic stories about how buildings wired by non-union electricians just make you look like a union shill.

You said it like they were asking for a raise, if this is what you heard its not true. As you said these are already low skill jobs, as far as money in the pocket, probably not much above minimum wage, but they had decent benefits. Hostess want to cut benefits almost in half, as well as cut in the pocket pay.

Nope.

Hostess NEEDED to cut benefits in half in order to survive.

They couldn't, so they didn't.

Hostess has filed bankruptcy twice in 8 years, but their top 20 got a ****ing 80% salary increase, up until recently record bonuses also.

So what?

Those folks were probably doing a whole lot of work. Not only that, Hostess needed to offer the money in order to attract talent. What kind of top manager wants to join a company that's about to go out of business? Hostess was desperately in need of top management talent, and they had to pay for it.

When they stopped the bonuses, they converted part of the performance based bonuses for the top into salary instead, cause they were performing oh so well with 2 backruptcy's.

When a company has 18k workers, the amount of their pay (even if they make minimum wage) dwarfs what the management makes. If you take a million dollars a year out of the executive pay package and split it up among 18,500 workers, you know what that comes to? Fifty bucks. A year.

You think those Hostess workers would rather have fifty bucks a year, or have paid a million bucks to get a top manager to oversee their turnaround?

Its the owners right to pay whatever salaries he wants to his top management, but its also the workers right to dis-approve of it and not just take it in the ass.

And how do you think the workers feel about what just happened?

Should they have striked?

Of course not.

I don't know

How can you say that? They all lost their jobs! They drove the company out of business (again)!

but put yourself in their shoes, they were probably livid.

So what?

Since when does how one "feels" about something change the math?

We see instances over and over again where unions in this country fail to represent the best interests of their members. How many times must unions burn their membership before union members say "no"?

[di11igaf]

Originally Posted by DanaT

I hope every union employee gets the same. Unemployment line.


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Ya ya, **** you.
I should lose my job JUST cause I'm in a union, I have nothing else to say to you other than that

Originally Posted by Roger1079

It doesn't surprise me. I have seen union construction workers do their thing. One guy taking measurements, another doing the framing, another putting up the drywall, and yet another person doing the taping, and another for the mudding. 5 guys to do the job of 2 and they do more sitting and watching not including 15 minute breaks every hour. All while making double what a non union worker makes. It is an absolute joke that anyone defends these organizations.

OK, so you see this with your limited time with union workers, yet ive been on a job site almost every day for over 15 years and I have not seen this ONCE, not one ****ing time.
First of all , people who frame and hang drywall are in a COMPLETELY different trade than finishers, so were the finishers/painters union also?
Carpenters don't finish drywall, maybe they can, but union carpenters don't, most non-union don't either.
Secondly, have you ever hung a piece of 5/8 drywall by yourself or sheet rocked a whole building?This is how its done union or not, its by far the most efficient way. Drywall is almost always two guys. One up on a scaffold taking measurements and hanging, one guy on the ground preps, cuts and helps hang,moves scaffold with the guy still on it to go to the next piece then repeat. otherwise the guy on the scaffold would have to get up and down every.single.sheet., it just don't work like that.
So all in a day 5 guys - one framing, one measuring, one hanging, one taping, one mudding.
Soooo, there was nothing at all in these walls? No electric, no plumbing, no insulation, no receptacles, no switches, nothing huh? That's pretty unusual. Before I go farther and call you on the bull****, I'll let you answer and clarify, there wasn't anything in these walls?
And BTW, never once in 16 years of non-union or union have I had more than one break in a day. Tools on at 7:00, 15 min coffee break at 9:30, tools down at 11:55 back on at 12:30, clean up at 3:15. Religiously every day union or not its universal.
I've never seen anybody break every hour, if they even tried that **** they'd be gone that day, no doubt about it.

[Roger1079]

Originally Posted by di11igaf

Ya ya, **** you.
I should lose my job JUST cause I'm in a union, I have nothing else to say to you other than that


OK, so you see this with your limited time with union workers, yet ive been on a job site almost every day for over 15 years and I have not seen this ONCE, not one ****ing time.
First of all , people who frame and hang drywall are in a COMPLETELY different trade than finishers, so were the finishers/painters union also?
Carpenters don't finish drywall, maybe they can, but union carpenters don't, most non-union don't either.
Secondly, have you ever hung a piece of 5/8 drywall by yourself or sheet rocked a whole building?This is how its done union or not, its by far the most efficient way. Drywall is almost always two guys. One up on a scaffold taking measurements and hanging, one guy on the ground preps, cuts and helps hang,moves scaffold with the guy still on it to go to the next piece then repeat. otherwise the guy on the scaffold would have to get up and down every.single.sheet., it just don't work like that.
So all in a day 5 guys - one framing, one measuring, one hanging, one taping, one mudding.
Soooo, there was nothing at all in these walls? No electric, no plumbing, no insulation, no receptacles, no switches, nothing huh? That's pretty unusual. Before I go farther and call you on the bull****, I'll let you answer and clarify, there wasn't anything in these walls?
And BTW, never once in 16 years of non-union or union have I had more than one break in a day. Tools on at 7:00, 15 min coffee break at 9:30, tools down at 11:55 back on at 12:30, clean up at 3:15. Religiously every day union or not its universal.
I've never seen anybody break every hour, if they even tried that **** they'd be gone that day, no doubt about it.

I said CONSTRUCTION workers, not ELECTRICIANS. There were outlets in the walls, conduit, flex, boxes for low voltage cabling, etc. as well as 277v light fixtures in the soffet and A/C ducting for vents and returns, but since construction workers don't do electric or air conditioning I didn't mention it. And yes, I have hung drywall before. It isn't rocket science nor does it take a team of people to do. By the way, the framing I was referring to was aluminum also, which I'm pretty sure a carpenter wouldn't handle either.

And this is now the third time you are ignoring the account I mentioned about union behavior when dealing with a true problem employee. I even gave you the post number to reference. Would you mind reading it and telling me how what happened there was fair for the employer or this persons colleagues? Please rationalize the union's decision in that situation. Are you ignoring it because you know there is no justification, or have you still not bothered to read it because you are too busy ranting about how normal workers do inferior work compared to union employees?

[di11igaf]

Originally Posted by Roger1079

I said CONSTRUCTION workers, not ELECTRICIANS. There were outlets in the walls, conduit, flex, boxes for low voltage cabling, etc. as well as 277v light fixtures in the soffet and A/C ducting for vents and returns, but since construction workers don't do electric or air conditioning I didn't mention it. And yes, I have hung drywall before. It isn't rocket science nor does it take a team of people to do. By the way, the framing I was referring to was aluminum also, which I'm pretty sure a carpenter wouldn't handle either.

And this is now the third time you are ignoring the account I mentioned about union behavior when dealing with a true problem employee. I even gave you the post number to reference. Would you mind reading it and telling me how what happened there was fair for the employer or this persons colleagues? Please rationalize the union's decision in that situation. Are you ignoring it because you know there is no justification, or have you still not bothered to read it because you are too busy ranting about how normal workers do inferior work compared to union employees?

Oh, they were construction workers.
OK, what is a construction worker? Find me a website for the union your talking about. I, as an electrician am a construction worker, carpenters are construction workers(yes carpenters frame with metal or wood studs depending on specs, most commercial is metal studs, this is always carpenters work. its one of the biggest parts of their job-again union or not), ironworkers, painters/finishers, pipefitters, tin knockers(HVAC) are all construction workers but different trades. Its just a broad term its not a trade.
So, the outlets, conduits, flex, boxes, duct work, 277 lighting and this was all done in a day?
Framing goes up first, then all that work you just spoke of goes into the framing and supported BY the framing, which I'm sure you know could be weeks or months before they can hang drywall and close up the walls.
So how were 5 guys framing, HANGING, and finishing when the walls are full of all that ****?
1-Carpenter frames walls
2-all trades do their work inside said walls
3-carpenters now rock walls close up all work just done
4-finishers finish, painters paint
Your story sounds good to the home handyman hacks or people whose entire construction knowledge comes from TV- and if I wasnt responding everyone would believe it then regurgitate it as fact, but it makes no sense to someone who knows how to 'construct'(you made the trade up I didn't.)

As for your other 'story', the union doesn't tell an employer 'no you can't fire this person.' If they think it was unjust maybe they would look into it. The employer can fire anyone if they have a reason, and if they didn't fire that guy it was their choice. Maybe they knew they guy had a prescription to them, and they were afraid it would get ugly if he was fired for something he legally had a prescription for. I dont know all the details, he probably was a dumb ass who deserved to be fired, but damn its not like they don't exist on ANY non-union job and manage to stay somehow.
There's exceptions to every rule, and ****ed up people in all walks of life who slip through the cracks
In my local, the contractor has the right to refuse to hire ANY worker for any reason, and I fully agree with it, so does the local as a whole.
If you get a bad name for whatever reason, every contractor will refuse you and you'll literally never work. That's how anyone who does manages to slip through our cracks are pruned

[JW1178]

Every business owner would love to see the Unions go away so they could hire whoever is willing to work cheapest. Must suck when all the skilled workers are united and refuse to work under a certain rate and get kicked around. Here the economy is crap and some business owners can't take advantage of people being desparate for work.

Like I said, I work in the automotive repair industry. The problem is that most shops all do the same crap (messing with pay, free work, ect) and it's hard to find a shop that doesn't do these things, especially in this economy. Perhaps if there was a Union presence, either the Union would come in and put an end to it or companies knowing that we could unionize would stop this crap.

[Roger1079]

Originally Posted by di11igaf

Oh, they were construction workers.
OK, what is a construction worker? Find me a website for the union your talking about. I, as an electrician am a construction worker, carpenters are construction workers(yes carpenters frame with metal or wood studs depending on specs, most commercial is metal studs, this is always carpenters work. its one of the biggest parts of their job-again union or not), ironworkers, painters/finishers, pipefitters, tin knockers(HVAC) are all construction workers but different trades. Its just a broad term its not a trade.
So, the outlets, conduits, flex, boxes, duct work, 277 lighting and this was all done in a day?
Framing goes up first, then all that work you just spoke of goes into the framing and supported BY the framing, which I'm sure you know could be weeks or months before they can hang drywall and close up the walls.
So how were 5 guys framing, HANGING, and finishing when the walls are full of all that ****?
1-Carpenter frames walls
2-all trades do their work inside said walls
3-carpenters now rock walls close up all work just done
4-finishers finish, painters paint
Your story sounds good to the home handyman hacks or people whose entire construction knowledge comes from TV- and if I wasnt responding everyone would believe it then regurgitate it as fact, but it makes no sense to someone who knows how to 'construct'(you made the trade up I didn't.)

I never said all this work was finished in a day. That is you assuming what I meant. Our facility was renovated across three floors over the course of nearly a full year. This was in 2006. We still have electricians in the building nearly every day and that is because we are constantly adding or moving things. You can try to discredit me all you want, I know what I saw and dealt with daily. I couldn't care less what some guy on the internet thinks of me as a person or about my knowledge/lack of knowledge on a subject such as plumbers (using another bundled term i think), electricians, carpenters all being called "construction" workers. The bottom line is the crew doing the stuff involving DRYWALL and FRAMING were the laziest people I have seen in a long time and I assure you they were union.

Originally Posted by di11igaf

As for your other 'story', the union doesn't tell an employer 'no you can't fire this person.' If they think it was unjust maybe they would look into it. The employer can fire anyone if they have a reason, and if they didn't fire that guy it was their choice. Maybe they knew they guy had a prescription to them, and they were afraid it would get ugly if he was fired for something he legally had a prescription for. I dont know all the details, he probably was a dumb ass who deserved to be fired, but damn its not like they don't exist on ANY non-union job and manage to stay somehow.
There's exceptions to every rule, and ****ed up people in all walks of life who slip through the cracks
In my local, the contractor has the right to refuse to hire ANY worker for any reason, and I fully agree with it, so does the local as a whole.
If you get a bad name for whatever reason, every contractor will refuse you and you'll literally never work. That's how anyone who does manages to slip through our cracks are pruned

The union impeded the ability of the company to gather the necessary evidence to terminate the employee to their standards. They knew he was taking Oxycontin and that there was no prescription for it. They knew he was taking it at work because one day the pills fell out of his pocket when he was at his workstation looking like a lobotomy patient. What person with a prescription for a schedule 2 drug keeps his pills in a plastic sandwich bag? This is what finally got the union rep to come witness for himself. This was because he could no longer ignore the issue as the union had done for months by refusing to allow a drug test. The drug test was finally agreed to but only with 30 days notice.

He failed the test even with the notice and could not furnish a prescription or a doctors name who had prescribed them to him. He was not allowed to be fired without the company putting him through rehab. He went to rehab for several weeks (don't remember the exact length of time anymore) and got clean. He cam back to work and was fine for about 2 weeks. Then one day, drooling mess was back again. Another drug test, this time unscheduled and another failure. Fired now? Nope! Back to rehab he goes at the demand of the union. He gets clean again and he comes back to work. Low and behold, after a couple weeks we are back to square one again. Fired now? Of course not. Back to rehab again. Cleaned up, for a third time and things must be changed. Another relapse after three weeks and another drug test and FINALLY the union stopped fighting his termination. This entire process took about a year from the start of his problem and the want for a drug test to actual termination.

All this while the rest of the employees suffered by being shortstaffed because he was wasted at work or shortstaffed because he was checked into a rehab facility. Maybe the company did have the right to fire him, that end I will never know. If they did have this right, they chose not to without solid evidence of such through failures of drug testing. You can't blame them for that since he would then be the "victim" to an attorney and would certainly file suit for wrongful termination. The union refused for to allow the drug testing until the point where they could no longer ignore the fact that there was a problem with the employee.

Unions killed the American auto industry. GM and Chrysler would be bankrupt if it weren't for the billions given to them with our tax dollars. Unions have now killed Hostess. In these two situations they ran the well dry causing the companies to flounder. Yeah, that has to be good for the employees.

[devildog2067]

Originally Posted by JW1178

Every business owner would love to see the Unions go away so they could hire whoever is willing to work cheapest.

Every rational person, in every transaction, chooses what provides the best value. Business owners are no different.

If two people are offering to do the same job, why shouldn't the business owner choose the one who wants to work the cheapest?

Must suck when all the skilled workers are united and refuse to work under a certain rate and get kicked around.

Doesn't "suck" at all. That's how the system is supposed to work.

Like I said before, no one is against the "idea" of unions. If all of the workers with a particular skill want to join together and represent themselves collectively, that is their right.

If the union does a poor job of representing their interests, they won't get hired. If the skill that they have isn't all that valuable or isn't that difficult to learn, they won't get hired. Being in a union doesn't give them any power that they don't have already, it just makes it easier to exercise the power that they do have.

Here the economy is crap and some business owners can't take advantage of people being desparate for work.

You can't "take advantage" of someone when two people enter a transaction and have all the information.

If you're a mechanic and you usually charge $100/hr, but it's Sunday morning and you've been out of work because the economy is rough and you need money by tomorrow morning to make your house payment and I offer you some work on the side for $40/hr, that's not "taking advantage" of anyone. It's a transaction that creates value for both parties.

You get some money that you would not otherwise have gotten. I get some work done that wasn't worth $100/hr to me but is worth $40/hr.

Obviously I made the above example up, but your odd and irrational hatred of "business owners" makes no sense. Business owners sign your paychecks. It's not an evil club, and if you hate them so much, save a bit of money and open your own shop and become one.

The problem is that most shops all do the same crap (messing with pay, free work, ect) and it's hard to find a shop that doesn't do these things

See? There's your opportunity right there.

If what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt you) then you've identified a huge opportunity. If you open a shop that doesn't behave this way, you'll easily be able to attract the best quality workers. You should then be able to offer a better quality product/service, which means you'll be able to get plenty of business.

Put your money where your mouth is and stop complaining about "business owners" taking advantage of people.

[Z71bill]

Unions are to business what termites are to a home.

At first a few termites are no big deal - but over time if they are allowed to grow and keep eating away - the whole house collapses.

Can anyone name a few heavily unionized private industries that have not been crushed by union termites?

[Hef]

Originally Posted by JW1178

Every business owner would love to see the Unions go away so they could hire whoever is willing to work cheapest. Must suck when all the skilled workers are united and refuse to work under a certain rate and get kicked around. Here the economy is crap and some business owners can't take advantage of people being desparate for work.

Like I said, I work in the automotive repair industry. The problem is that most shops all do the same crap (messing with pay, free work, ect) and it's hard to find a shop that doesn't do these things, especially in this economy. Perhaps if there was a Union presence, either the Union would come in and put an end to it or companies knowing that we could unionize would stop this crap.

I've been a carpenter for 20 years. I've worked around union guys but never joined a union, nor would I ever consider it. At first, I didn't join because I knew exactly how good I am at what I do and could negotiate my employment agreements successfully without outside help. I am very good at what I do, I know it, and people who sought to hire me know it too.

As time went on, I saw how unions operate, and wanted no part of it. They extort high wages from businesses. They protect the mediocre, slow, lazy, incompetents, and substance abusers from being fired when they really should be. They create the conditions that allow 4 men to stand around and watch 1 work, while all 5 get paid. With the carpenters union, the old guys try not to teach the young guys any more than they have to as a way to protect their own jobs. I wanted no part of it.

As an employer, I refuse to let a group of people who have no skin in the game dictate to me how the business will operate. If the union wants to come in and write me a check, say $60,000 per employee, I will sell them shares and then they can have a say. Otherwise, they can bite me.

[Hef]

Originally Posted by devildog2067

Every rational person, in every transaction, chooses what provides the best value. Business owners are no different.

If two people are offering to do the same job, why shouldn't the business owner choose the one who wants to work the cheapest?



Doesn't "suck" at all. That's how the system is supposed to work.

Like I said before, no one is against the "idea" of unions. If all of the workers with a particular skill want to join together and represent themselves collectively, that is their right.

If the union does a poor job of representing their interests, they won't get hired. If the skill that they have isn't all that valuable or isn't that difficult to learn, they won't get hired. Being in a union doesn't give them any power that they don't have already, it just makes it easier to exercise the power that they do have.



You can't "take advantage" of someone when two people enter a transaction and have all the information.

If you're a mechanic and you usually charge $100/hr, but it's Sunday morning and you've been out of work because the economy is rough and you need money by tomorrow morning to make your house payment and I offer you some work on the side for $40/hr, that's not "taking advantage" of anyone. It's a transaction that creates value for both parties.

You get some money that you would not otherwise have gotten. I get some work done that wasn't worth $100/hr to me but is worth $40/hr.

Obviously I made the above example up, but your odd and irrational hatred of "business owners" makes no sense. Business owners sign your paychecks. It's not an evil club, and if you hate them so much, save a bit of money and open your own shop and become one.



See? There's your opportunity right there.

If what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt you) then you've identified a huge opportunity. If you open a shop that doesn't behave this way, you'll easily be able to attract the best quality workers. You should then be able to offer a better quality product/service, which means you'll be able to get plenty of business.

Put your money where your mouth is and stop complaining about "business owners" taking advantage of people.

People who have never been responsible for other people and/or business will never understand what you just said.

[Roger1079]

Originally Posted by Hef

I've been a carpenter for 20 years. I've worked around union guys but never joined a union, nor would I ever consider it. At first, I didn't join because I knew exactly how good I am at what I do and could negotiate my employment agreements successfully without outside help. I am very good at what I do, I know it, and people who sought to hire me know it too.

As time went on, I saw how unions operate, and wanted no part of it. They extort high wages from businesses. They protect the mediocre, slow, lazy, incompetents, and substance abusers from being fired when they really should be. They create the conditions that allow 4 men to stand around and watch 1 work, while all 5 get paid. With the carpenters union, the old guys try not to teach the young guys any more than they have to as a way to protect their own jobs. I wanted no part of it.

As an employer, I refuse to let a group of people who have no skin in the game dictate to me how the business will operate. If the union wants to come in and write me a check, say $60,000 per employee, I will sell them shares and then they can have a say. Otherwise, they can bite me.

This, and exactly this. I am willing to bet the union supporters posting in this thread likely fall into this category. There is absolutely no other reason why anyone would defend union organizations. Some here even seem to be brainwashed into thinking their work is superior simply because they are backed by a union.

[Roger1079]

Originally Posted by Hef

People who have never been responsible for other people and/or business will never understand what you just said.

I understand it perfectly and the only business I ever owned had only me as an employee and failed before it even got off the ground. My father on the other hand built his business over a 50 year period from the ground up. When the union reps came by to solicit employees he told them to go pound sand. He also informed everyone that any of his employees that wanted to support unionization could find the door and not to let it hit them on the way out. He was the boss and he was always fair to everyone. He had an open door policy that any of the employees could always utilize. His philosophy was that anyone who wanted an outside organization to handle their business matters for them didn't have the spine to be one of his employees and obviously didn't like his method of doing business, so why let them stay. I have to agree with that philosophy.

[Hef]

Originally Posted by Roger1079

This, and exactly this. I am willing to bet the union supporters posting in this thread likely fall into this category. There is absolutely no other reason why anyone would defend union organizations. Some here even seem to be brainwashed into thinking their work is superior simply because they are backed by a union.

I will gladly put my work out to be compared against the best of what the unions can put forth. The idea that the unions produce the best is yet another pro-union fallacy that they use to justify their false belief that trade unions are needed.

[DanaT]

So lets see what "buying union" gets us.

For my union electrician maybe you can show how good a union is.



I come to you with a 24V DC heater. The heater has a maximum output of 30,000btu. I am kinda a cheap guy and only want to run this with the minimum size copper wire to a location 31 meters away from the transformer. What size of copper wire should I use and how large of a circuit breaker should be put in line?

[certifiedfunds]

Originally Posted by DanaT

So lets see what "buying union" gets us.

For my union electrician maybe you can show how good a union is.



I come to you with a 24V DC heater. The heater has a maximum output of 30,000btu. I am kinda a cheap guy and only want to run this with the minimum size copper wire to a location 31 meters away from the transformer. What size of copper wire should I use and how large of a circuit breaker should be put in line?

You're not playing fair lol

[DanaT]

Originally Posted by certifiedfunds

You're not playing fair lol

Why is that? We have union experts on the forum.

[Arquebus12]

Originally Posted by DanaT

So lets see what "buying union" gets us.

For my union electrician maybe you can show how good a union is.



I come to you with a 24V DC heater. The heater has a maximum output of 30,000btu. I am kinda a cheap guy and only want to run this with the minimum size copper wire to a location 31 meters away from the transformer. What size of copper wire should I use and how large of a circuit breaker should be put in line?

I don't have it at my fingertips, but I reference NEMA standards all the time on line in my business.

I'm another one to deny loudly any claims that "Only the best tradesmen are Union Tradesmen". I say that because I'm one of the best at my trade, and have had the pleasure of working with others that have far superior skill sets than I do.

What I can't help but notice is the amount of vehemence and gravitas that's coming from the pro-union folks on this thread. It's almost religious, the amount of zeal and fervor that's being put forth towards defending their beliefs. At the same time, others are able to calmly demonstrate the faults and shortcomings of union labor without any real effort, based on their first-hand experiences.

[DanaT]

Originally Posted by Arquebus12

I don't have it at my fingertips, but I reference NEMA standards all the time on line in my business.

Hint. You cant look it up in a book. It is obviously written in such a way.