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Old 11-13-2012, 13:38   #276
Slug71
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Ironic that you talk about rumors, wanting someone fired, and yet think employment at will is bad.

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He had been warned and suspended before for performance and bullying. Problem was, he is union.
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Old 11-13-2012, 13:39   #277
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Slug,

Don't take it as I am saying you are a bad person. Probably each of those incidents you had a rationale for why you did what you did. I really don't see any malice from what you have said.

What I generally see is that much of the time you have been been the guy always seen at the "scene of the crime". Right or wrong that is likely how you have been looked at.

I don't know you, but from what you have said, I suspect you are mid to late 20s, single, and working retail. There are also probably other teen and 20s girls there and you have some level of interest.

If this is true, just be aware that if you play with fire (flirt with the girls at work...are just too friendly with them..etc) expect to get burned. My advice (which I didn't do..) is keep work and the dating scene separate. Women are trouble at work. Learn that soon and always be ready for it.


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Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
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Old 11-13-2012, 13:43   #278
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.. Women are trouble at work. Learn that soon and always be ready for it..

Correction: Male-female interpersonal relationships in the workplace are trouble.

Just don't.. Ever.

If you and a woman share so much attraction that you cannot resist, then one or the other needs to get a different job first.

Otherwise, just be adults and accept that both your jobs may be forfeit.
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Old 11-13-2012, 13:49   #279
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Correction: Male-female interpersonal relationships in the workplace are trouble.

Just don't.. Ever.

If you and a woman share so much attraction that you cannot resist, then one or the other needs to get a different job first.

Otherwise, just be adults and accept that both your jobs may be forfeit.
What about same sex relationships??? We have to be PC here.


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Old 11-13-2012, 13:50   #280
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What about same sex relationships??? We have to be PC here.
...
I have no experience with that... he's on his own in that regard.
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Old 11-13-2012, 13:53   #281
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Correction: Male-female interpersonal relationships in the workplace are trouble.

Just don't.. Ever.

If you and a woman share so much attraction that you cannot resist, then one or the other needs to get a different job first.

Otherwise, just be adults and accept that both your jobs may be forfeit.
I don't agree. She may look like Janet Reno...but as soon as she says "he was undressing me with his eyes and I am uncomfortable" you is screwed. Not only are you out of a job, but your buddies are laughing at you for wanting Janet Reno.

Disclosure. There is someone for everyone so Janet you may find a man (or whatever your preference is)


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Old 11-13-2012, 14:03   #282
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And the opinion of anyone interested in liberty and a free market. I realize both of these run contrary to your political objectives.



Your Marxist revolution is well underway, Bruce. Celebrate!
Heck, he was just a right-wing capitalist on another thread. Brucev is having some "issues."
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Old 11-13-2012, 14:09   #283
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Heck, he was just a right-wing capitalist on another thread. Brucev is having some "issues."
Maybe he is a liberal trying to come out of the closet and let everyone know he is a liberal but is still ashamed of it in public?


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Old 11-13-2012, 14:47   #284
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Heck, he was just a right-wing capitalist on another thread. Brucev is having some "issues."
Maybe we should start calling him Mitt.
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Old 11-13-2012, 15:51   #285
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Slug,

Don't take it as I am saying you are a bad person. Probably each of those incidents you had a rationale for why you did what you did. I really don't see any malice from what you have said.

What I generally see is that much of the time you have been been the guy always seen at the "scene of the crime". Right or wrong that is likely how you have been looked at.

I don't know you, but from what you have said, I suspect you are mid to late 20s, single, and working retail. There are also probably other teen and 20s girls there and you have some level of interest.

If this is true, just be aware that if you play with fire (flirt with the girls at work...are just too friendly with them..etc) expect to get burned. My advice (which I didn't do..) is keep work and the dating scene separate. Women are trouble at work. Learn that soon and always be ready for it.


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I get what youre saying and that could be it. Our job often involves us being there though as we have to gain the footage

Im 32 and dating a girl. She works there.
I know, i know. Big no no. I thought hard and long about it since ive been burnt before. But she is really good to me and we been together over a year.
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Old 11-13-2012, 20:04   #286
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I get what youre saying and that could be it. Our job often involves us being there though as we have to gain the footage

Im 32 and dating a girl. She works there.
I know, i know. Big no no. I thought hard and long about it since ive been burnt before. But she is really good to me and we been together over a year.
Probably being gone is a good thing in the long run. Better to lose a job than a woman that makes you happy.


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Old 11-13-2012, 22:01   #287
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Correction: Male-female interpersonal relationships in the workplace are trouble.

Just don't.. Ever.

If you and a woman share so much attraction that you cannot resist, then one or the other needs to get a different job first.

Otherwise, just be adults and accept that both your jobs may be forfeit.
It can be done. The problem is that it takes two reasonable, mature, responsible adults to make it work, even if ends before someone finds work elsewhere. About 99% of the population peaked in regards to maturity level in Jr. High.
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Old 11-14-2012, 00:52   #288
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I have no problem with it. Anything else makes it far too hard to get rid of the slackers and the people that don't perform.

It's not fair to expect those that work hard already to carry the people that don't. (One of the many reasons that I despise unions.)
I'm a member of a union, and have been for a long time. Question 1- are you or have you been just so I know what im dealing with? With your stereotype, I'm gonna guess no. I started with this current company when the owner opened his doors, me and him together have built it to now be a pretty big, competitive electrical company. I run all the big work. Whats makes you think if I don't perform I will keep my job? Please let me in on this secret all you union haters know about which us union guys have never actually had the benefit of receiving. I've basically done enough schooling and training to be a damn doctor, and so has every other man/woman on the list at the hall willing to do the job if I can't. I can be laid off or fired and day any time for not doing my job, and the hall can do nothing for me. Unfortunately since I'm the boss, I'm also one who has to decide who to keep or not on my jobs when it slows down. Guess who I always pick? the best workers always stay.
Please explain how I can keep my job if I decide to turn into a slug or a hack.
Sorry but I take things like this personal, especially when they are 100% false.
I've worked both sides of the fence, if anything, I saw WAY more slugs on the non-union side, as it was much less competitive. Its stressed to us day one of our apprentiship- always give an honest days work, do it right, do it safe, take pride in your work. That's what we do every day.
Don't do those things, your gone. Bottom line
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:41   #289
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Carrying a Union card isn't like wearing a bulletproof vest, it's all about the contract the Union negotiates that leaves a bad taste in people's mouth.

We have a Union at one of our paper mills. It has all the language about seniority, lay offs, grievance filing, what constitutes a union job, hours worked, overtime rules, shift schedule, etc. The damn thing is a 36 Page long instruction manual on what and how you have to manage the employees.

Every 2 years its back to the table for tough negotiations, and it is never as fair for the company as non union employment.

The contract doesn't say you can't be fired for screwing up, it just limits the company's flexibility.

*Someone doesn't show for work, you have to call the most senior person, not the best person.

*Want someone to take on an extra task? Must run it by the Union first. Same thing with changing someone's job.

*Need to shut off a machine for a few weeks and lay off some guys until business gets better? That's fine but you still have to pay them.
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:22   #290
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It can be done. The problem is that it takes two reasonable, mature, responsible adults to make it work, even if ends before someone finds work elsewhere. About 99% of the population peaked in regards to maturity level in Jr. High.
I agree.
I agree that work relationships have potential pitfalls not present in off-site relationships.
I've seen it work successfully for others who were people I would label as "responsible, mature" adults. Especially if they have common external interests such as raising kids.
And I agree with the Jr High assessment too.

Dang - I should have just said "I agree".
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:34   #291
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I'm a member of a union, and have been for a long time. Question 1- are you or have you been just so I know what im dealing with? With your stereotype, I'm gonna guess no. I started with this current company when the owner opened his doors, me and him together have built it to now be a pretty big, competitive electrical company. I run all the big work. Whats makes you think if I don't perform I will keep my job? Please let me in on this secret all you union haters know about which us union guys have never actually had the benefit of receiving. I've basically done enough schooling and training to be a damn doctor, and so has every other man/woman on the list at the hall willing to do the job if I can't. I can be laid off or fired and day any time for not doing my job, and the hall can do nothing for me. Unfortunately since I'm the boss, I'm also one who has to decide who to keep or not on my jobs when it slows down. Guess who I always pick? the best workers always stay.
Please explain how I can keep my job if I decide to turn into a slug or a hack.
Sorry but I take things like this personal, especially when they are 100% false.
I've worked both sides of the fence, if anything, I saw WAY more slugs on the non-union side, as it was much less competitive. Its stressed to us day one of our apprentiship- always give an honest days work, do it right, do it safe, take pride in your work. That's what we do every day.
Don't do those things, your gone. Bottom line
I was part of a union for several years. If you look back at my previous posts in this thread, you will get a nice taste of why unions are terrible for employers.

I hated everything about the IBEW union I belonged to except the salary perks. I was a $12.36 an hour technician working on kiosk equipment. Anything over 8 hours a day was time and a half, anything over 40 hours a week was time and a half, anything on SUNDAY was time and a half, and anything on observed holidays was double time and a half. All that time and a half was stackable up to QUADRUPLE time and a half. Needless to say I was putting in roughly 12 hour days, roughly 70 hours a week, and working every Sunday and holiday possible. I was making near $50k some years on a $12.36 an hour rate.

Also, if there was anything wrong beyond the machine with wiring, etc. I had to call someone else and sit there twiddling my thumbs watching someone else work. Drug testing was forbidden with the exception of very rare circumstances and tracking hours using a timeclock was also forbidden. Our hours were tracked on time sheets. We had employees that arrived late every day and left early every day however their time sheets showed them arriving early and leaving late daily. Whatever moron signed that contract on behalf of that company should have been fired on the spot.

I am perfectly happy where I am now. I negotiate my own terms with my employer. I don't need any organization to take money from me weekly and speak on my behalf. Not assisting with things outside my job description when necessary is also against my work ethic. If something needs to be done that isn't my responsibility, I am glad to help if I am not tied up in something.

What do you think one of the causes for General Motors and Daimler Chrysler needing billions in taxpayer dollars was? First and foremost, it was them missing the window on fuel efficient vehicles when gas prices were skyrocketing. Second, it was them making inferior products to their competition both foreign and domestic. Third, it was the UAW not willing to compromise on the average $70 an hour it was paying to workers, both through pensions and on the job still.

Unions are cancer for good businesses plain and simple.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:51   #292
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I was a temp-to-hire working in shipping/receiving in a warehouse. On guy was found sleeping in one of our trucks we were loading and fired.

Two days later was back on shift, complete with back pay for those two days, thanks to the union.

I decided that day I didn't like unions.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:53   #293
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I know it has it's benefits like being able to quit. But do you think that it should be revised so that employers can't terminate without reason or warning?

With the way the economy is, I think employees should at least be given a verbal and/or written warning before being terminated and have the chance to 'fix' whatever the issue may be.

Seems there's so much talk about getting people back to work and creating job but what about keeping people at work?
I worked under the table for 4 years before I was 16 "at will". I've worked about 10 years since then legitimately "at will". Been without a job for over 2 months once due to injuries (I DO support worker's comp, even though I hate it). Making great money right now. Got a job I like doing. In a field I like being in.

At will works for me.

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Old 11-14-2012, 15:33   #294
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I'm a member of a union, and have been for a long time. Question 1- are you or have you been just so I know what im dealing with? With your stereotype, I'm gonna guess no.
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Carrying a Union card isn't like wearing a bulletproof vest, it's all about the contract the Union negotiates that leaves a bad taste in people's mouth.
I'm ex-union, Operating Engineers. I didn't feel bulletproof before we became a union shop, nor after, but I did notice a distinct distancing between the two sides involved...

For my 2% tithe, a union-type would show up once a month with a box of donuts and ask how things were going. He was a nice guy, and I was grateful... the shop I was in was a good one (Caterpillar dealership), and while there were some problems, it wasn't anything a union could fix, it was just personalities in the office. To that end, the union guys were very proud of the repeated re-hirings of drunks, goof-offs, and generally unpleasant people who were rightfully fired for a variety of reasons. Somehow, the union used to coerce those in charge to rehire these people, and do it regularly.

I don't miss it. I've worked in non-union shops (including my current one) that are far more generous with pay, time off, opportunities for growth, and most importantly, respect. I won't go so far as to say that unions are completely archaic, but your time is past. You had your place in history, and I'm grateful (especially for weekends), but individual negotiations are replacing organized labor. That won't stop the die-hard working class heroes from saying how tough it is out there, and that unions are the only salvation from a life of drudgery and glorified slavery. Maybe so, but I doubt it.
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Old 11-14-2012, 15:47   #295
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Also, to the OP: I thought about your plight today when I heard some news... a municipal employee somewhere in Illinois had managed to skim $53 million over the course of several years that was used to finance a lavish lifestyle, which included a horse breeding farm.

She's been caught and indicted. Even if she returns all of the money, she's looking at prison, which is fine. But the real victims are not the city of Dixon that she robbed, but the people she employed to honestly run her dealings, like the above-mentioned horse farm. The state's coming after that, and it will be liquidated so that monies can be recovered... maybe those working for that particular farm can keep their jobs, but it's doubtful. It's almost certainly going to be auctioned off in pieces.

So the employees are screwed, and through no fault of their own. The government, and not some union-busting capitalist swine billionaire broker, is the one kicking these people to the curb, and without a bit of malice. It just is. So what do you think these people who are now unemployed are to do in their position? That's right, nothing.

They collect their unemployment while they look for work, because it's all they can do. Oh, sure, they could hire a lawyer who would make a pain of himself on their behalf to the government, the recently indicted embezzler, the state, the milkman, cable provider, et. al., but really the best and only thing to do is say "Well, chalk that up to experience", and find some other suitable employment. Which is what you should do, instead of showing your ass here on a public forum and serially whining about how you were wronged.

Everyone's been wronged, repeatedly, in life for a variety of reasons. It hurts, but it really hurts if you dwell on it without learning from it. Step away from the keyboard, and find a new employer. People are trying to come to America from all over the world for a chance to collect trash at minimum wage.
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Old 11-14-2012, 16:14   #296
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I don't miss it. I've worked in non-union shops (including my current one) that are far more generous with pay, time off, opportunities for growth, and most importantly, respect. I won't go so far as to say that unions are completely archaic, but your time is past. You had your place in history, and I'm grateful (especially for weekends), but individual negotiations are replacing organized labor. That won't stop the die-hard working class heroes from saying how tough it is out there, and that unions are the only salvation from a life of drudgery and glorified slavery. Maybe so, but I doubt it.
Thats fine, whatever it takes to better yourself, but I disagree with our time is past. I work construction, not a desk job. I can only speak for the skilled trade labor unions/locals I've worked around.
There's good and bad people in EVERY trade, every industry, unions are no exception. People constantly say with OSHA now and all these regs unions are no longer needed.
When I started non union at 16, within the first month they had me doing things I should NEVER had done, not even now 15 years later. Working in 480v 800amp gear energized like it was nothing. I didn't know any better. Other guys did it, told me to do it, everyone was afraid to ask for a flash suit and the contractors were too cheap/didnt care enough to buy any PPE, nor did they require it.
Shortly after I watched a guy burn his whole face off and thought he was dead. I'm not saying this only happened cause we were non-union blah blah, but I'll say **** like that don't fly in my local. Accidents are gonna happen, but there has to be a line.
The problem is the working class heroes like the guy I knew that burned his face off. Too job scared to say no, an employer who could give two ****s, bad things happen. Maybe if this poor chap had been issued the correct PPE gear he'd still be alive, maybe not-it couldn't have hurt though.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBvmPRqfmo
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Old 11-14-2012, 16:28   #297
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I'm ex-union, Operating Engineers. I didn't feel bulletproof before we became a union shop, nor after, but I did notice a distinct distancing between the two sides involved...

For my 2% tithe, a union-type would show up once a month with a box of donuts and ask how things were going. He was a nice guy, and I was grateful... the shop I was in was a good one (Caterpillar dealership), and while there were some problems, it wasn't anything a union could fix, it was just personalities in the office. To that end, the union guys were very proud of the repeated re-hirings of drunks, goof-offs, and generally unpleasant people who were rightfully fired for a variety of reasons. Somehow, the union used to coerce those in charge to rehire these people, and do it regularly.

I don't miss it. I've worked in non-union shops (including my current one) that are far more generous with pay, time off, opportunities for growth, and most importantly, respect. I won't go so far as to say that unions are completely archaic, but your time is past. You had your place in history, and I'm grateful (especially for weekends), but individual negotiations are replacing organized labor. That won't stop the die-hard working class heroes from saying how tough it is out there, and that unions are the only salvation from a life of drudgery and glorified slavery. Maybe so, but I doubt it.
I will never negotiate with a union. I'll fire everyone before I will accept a union in my shop. They are vampires, plain and simple.
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Old 11-14-2012, 16:37   #298
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Thats fine, whatever it takes to better yourself, but I disagree with our time is past. I work construction, not a desk job. I can only speak for the skilled trade labor unions/locals I've worked around.
There's good and bad people in EVERY trade, every industry, unions are no exception. People constantly say with OSHA now and all these regs unions are no longer needed.
When I started non union at 16, within the first month they had me doing things I should NEVER had done, not even now 15 years later. Working in 480v 800amp gear energized like it was nothing. I didn't know any better. Other guys did it, told me to do it, everyone was afraid to ask for a flash suit and the contractors were too cheap/didnt care enough to buy any PPE, nor did they require it.
Shortly after I watched a guy burn his whole face off and thought he was dead. I'm not saying this only happened cause we were non-union blah blah, but I'll say **** like that don't fly in my local. Accidents are gonna happen, but there has to be a line.
The problem is the working class heroes like the guy I knew that burned his face off. Too job scared to say no, an employer who could give two ****s, bad things happen. Maybe if this poor chap had been issued the correct PPE gear he'd still be alive, maybe not-it couldn't have hurt though.
..
If you feel you need the IBEW to speak for you then so be it.
That's the great thing about life in America, we have those kinds of choices.

I had my face and fingers in many energized 480VAC MCCs and other cabinets over the years. Shouldn't have, but I did.
Got "tickled" a few times, thankfully I lived to tell about it.

Rather than depend on someone to speak for me though, I made my own choices about what risks I will and will not be exposed to. When I had to, I moved on. When I found companies I could comfortably and successfully work with, I did so. Never had to pay any union dues..
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June 28, 2012: the day the American republic died.

Uncontrolled, unaccountable government spending + Graduated income-tax = SLAVERY

Last edited by Atlas; 11-14-2012 at 16:38..
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Old 11-14-2012, 17:56   #299
di11igaf
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
If you feel you need the IBEW to speak for you then so be it.
That's the great thing about life in America, we have those kinds of choices.

I had my face and fingers in many energized 480VAC MCCs and other cabinets over the years. Shouldn't have, but I did.
Got "tickled" a few times, thankfully I lived to tell about it.

Rather than depend on someone to speak for me though, I made my own choices about what risks I will and will not be exposed to. When I had to, I moved on. When I found companies I could comfortably and successfully work with, I did so. Never had to pay any union dues..
Me joining the union had nothing to do with me wanting someone to negotiate for me. I wanted the best training and the best job i could get in my trade. Working for guys who still had to say 'righty tighty-lefty loosy' to themselves when they used a wrench or screwdriver started to become a joke. An apprentiship was non-existent when i started non-union. My union dues help pay for my free 5 years of school(which also counted as college credits towards an electrical engineering degree), plus the endless number of other free training I get if I want. Its not just dues, its partly MY union hall, my dues are necessary to keep my local alive. I vote where my money goes, and every cent is accounted for. I pay a total of around 300~/year. We vote as a whole on every decision. There is a contract with the employers, they have a minimum they must pay us. Most people think everyone makes the same no matter what. If a contractor feels you are worth more, the pay may go above and beyond our rate.
How many here pay the NRA dues for them to negotiate on your behalf? I do as well, but I know where every cent is spent from my dues to my local, plus I get a lot more say where the money goes.
I still work on energized 480 as well when necessary, but with the right equipment and no one trying to make it seem like if I don't to not bother showing up the next day.
I can't agree that 277/480 tickles though(I know that was meant to be sarcastic), last time I got nipped with a 277v neutral my teeth chattered so hard I cracked a tooth. You never forget that metal taste neither.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hef View Post
I will never negotiate with a union. I'll fire everyone before I will accept a union in my shop. They are vampires, plain and simple.
Good for you. I'm sure your employess appreciate that and want you to succeed.
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Last edited by di11igaf; 11-14-2012 at 18:10..
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Old 11-14-2012, 18:01   #300
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Originally Posted by Hef View Post
I will never negotiate with a union. I'll fire everyone before I will accept a union in my shop. They are vampires, plain and simple.
You guys act like it will instantly put you out of business. Here's what it does to a contractor- nothing. You may at worst have to give your guys a raise. If they are not worth it, why are they working for you? Maybe you already pay them above the union rate, then you keep paying them.
If you want cheap labor, you hire our apprentice's.
Now what if you land a huge job and you need 10 times the manpower you have now, quickly. What would you do if you didn't have a hall to hire out of? Hire Joe schmo off the street. Hire some pedo off craigslist? A crew of illegals? A temp agency who got their guys from a jail halfway house/street combo?
You make one call to the local, unlimited supply of EQUALLY trained, qualified workers, the next day.
Why do all the data centers(JP Morgan chase, bank one, Google, Facebook, amazon), new hospitals, huge casinos, etc almost always go union?
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Last edited by di11igaf; 11-14-2012 at 18:28..
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42