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Old 11-03-2012, 15:01   #26
Kingarthurhk
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Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
"Now, consider the fact that everyone is required to qualify four times a year, and there is a lot of "range play" as well that consume rounds: shoot and move, down and disabled, on and on."
"It is a package deal. Also, the philosophy is to qualify with what you are going to carry, so it has never been full metal jackets, it has always been hollow points. "
Kingarthurhk! What are you basing this on? Who says "everyone" is required to qualify four times a year? And what does "package deal" mean? And how can you possibly compare the ammo used by the military, fighting a war, to a law enforcement agency?

And anyone who says JHP rounds are cheaper then FMJ rounds have not shopped around enough for the best price! Why do you think every major police department uses FMJ rounds to qualify? According to you it's because they cost more!!
30 years with the largest police department on the west coast and I have not heard of any of this.
15 years of experience?
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Old 11-03-2012, 15:33   #27
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The 46,000 rounds is a non-issue ever since I said that I stand corrected. But some of you keep bringing it up!!
That's just a small part of the amount I was referring to.

"On top of that, the DHS buy order was for about 40,000,000 rounds of .40 S&W JHPs all told. That’s a lot of ammo."

This is mainly what I was referring to. That's 40 million!!!!!!

And when you said "everyone" is required to qualify a certain number of times, I took that to mean everyone in law enforcement. I know this is not the case with LAPD and a number of other departments! You did not specify.

I hope everyone here knows that I am extremely Pro Law Enforcement. I just thought this high number concerns me!
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Old 11-03-2012, 15:55   #28
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Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
The 46,000 rounds is a non-issue ever since I said that I stand corrected. But some of you keep bringing it up!!
That's just a small part of the amount I was referring to.

"On top of that, the DHS buy order was for about 40,000,000 rounds of .40 S&W JHPs all told. Thatís a lot of ammo."

This is mainly what I was referring to. That's 40 million!!!!!!

And when you said "everyone" is required to qualify a certain number of times, I took that to mean everyone in law enforcement. I know this is not the case with LAPD and a number of other departments! You did not specify.

I hope everyone here knows that I am extremely Pro Law Enforcement. I just thought this high number concerns me!
It is because you are ignorant. And that is not your fault. .40 Caliber ammunition has been standard issue pistol since I was stuck with the Beretta 96D, then the H&K .40 USP DA, and then the Sig DAK. However, this will blow your mind too, if you purchase your own pistol you can get a Glock, but it has to be a 9mm. Also, for the longest time the Customs issued pistol was the Glock 19. Now, the privately owned pistols are the Glock 17 and 26. I carry both, because I like Glock. It is reliable. I don't like 9mm, but if it is Glock that is what you get.

Also, you will have to consider that on top of the .40 there is 12 guage and .223 amuntion. The standard 3 gun for Border Patrol these days is H&K P200, a Wilson Combat 12 guage, and an M-4 (now 3 round burst).

So, you have virutally every federal law enforcement agency carrying .40 for the standard sidearm, except Glock freaks like me. Though, years ago the FBI when I worked along side their Agents carried Glock 22 .40, the Glock expception to the rule apprently.

So, virtually everyone out there has .40. The academies burn through tons of the stuff. For those who are street hires they have to have a pistol course that consumes a great deal of ammo to bring them up to speed.

Then you the folks out in the field qualifying 4 times a year, being issued duty ammo and practice ammo on top of that, and it ends up being a butt load of ammo.

So, the figures are not off. There is no great conspiracy. It is just someone noticed the volume of ammo. Considering there are about 200k of those folks out there more or less, the ammuniton draw is not that staggeringly impressive.
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Old 11-03-2012, 15:56   #29
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IMHO, this isn't that much ammo considering the number of people involved.
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Old 11-03-2012, 16:05   #30
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So, virtually everyone out there has .40. The academies burn through tons of the stuff. For those who are street hires they have to have a pistol course that consumes a great deal of ammo to bring them up to speed.

Then you the folks out in the field qualifying 4 times a year, being issued duty ammo and practice ammo on top of that, and it ends up being a butt load of ammo.


If that's a buttload of ammo, I need a new butt!

That's more than I want in my butt!

Randy
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Old 11-03-2012, 16:14   #31
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If that's a buttload of ammo, I need a new butt!

That's more than I want in my butt!

Randy
Well, let's see: Do law enforcement have to be exposed to CS Gas? Check. Do they have to sprayed with OC spray? Check. Do they have to be shot with a taser gun? Check. So, taking a round in the butt can't be too far oof.
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Old 11-03-2012, 16:17   #32
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Well, let's see: Do law enforcement have to be exposed to CS Gas? Check. Do they have to sprayed with OC spray? Check. Do they have to be shot with a taser gun? Check. So, taking a round in the butt can't be too far oof.
"Oof" is right!
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Old 11-03-2012, 16:42   #33
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This is rather weird question and follow up question to be coming from a "30 year cop". Most of this is common sense and simple math. I expect a conspiracy theorist to be shocked, not a LEO who should have basic knowledge of training and the ability to do simple math.
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Old 11-03-2012, 18:03   #34
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I can't open the link right now, but if it's from the previous stories I've read on it, it was a contract for UP TO a particular amount. DHS owns and operates the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, which trains officers and agents from the vast majority of federal law enforcement agencies (including SSA and NWS and many other obscure agencies' Offices of Inspector General Special Agents). Think about how much firearms training is done in LAPD's academy. Then think about how many academies are going on AT ONE TIME on FLETC; it's in the dozens. Think about how many rounds each class uses, and multiply that out. That's just the basic classes, not even counting the advanced training that's going on. Plus all the ammo needed for all of the agencies under DHS to requalify and train under their policies. THAT is why they put out those bids.
I don't think its unreasonable at all. It takes A TON of ammo in all that training and roughly 50 rounds on each individuals belt, minimum.
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Old 11-03-2012, 18:05   #35
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I understand all of that but all of this ammo is JHP. You don't need JHP for training or qualifications.

And the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration's National Weather Service is getting 46,000 rounds of 40 S&W Jacketed Hollow Points. For what? I didn't know their were pistol packing weatherman!!!

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Old 11-03-2012, 19:06   #36
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I am at a loss as to what the problem is.

At my agency, each officer shoots 50 rounds per month at the range and qualifies once per quarter. On top of that, each officer probably shoot another 100 round per year practicing new drills. That comes out to 700 rounds per officer, per year. We shoot the same ammo at the range as we shoot in the field for reasons of civil liability. This way if someone sues us over an officer involved shooting, their lawyer can't claim we were unfamiliar with the characteristics of our duty ammo because we only shoot ball at the range.

I am going to assume the Fed follow a similar protocol. The article says the Feds bought 40,220,000 rounds. By my agency's standards that's enough annual practice ammo for 54,457 officers. So how many cops do the Feds have? Let's count -

8,500 Special Agents HSI
7,000 Deportation Officers & Immigration Enforcement Agents
21,370 Border Patrol agents
21,186 CBP Officers
4,400 +/- Secret Service Special Agents + Uniformed Division
295 Social Security Special Agents

Total 62,751

I'm sure there are a lot more, but lets just go with these.

62,751 Feds X 700 rounds per year = 43,925,700 rounds needed

OOPS. It looks like the Feds didn't order enough ammo for everyone to practice monthly at the range over the next fiscal year. They are either going to have to order 3,705,700 more rounds, or someone is going to have to skip going to the range, or they are going to have to stop shooting bad guys in the field.
DOJ as a whole, mint police, washington dc police, Irs police, just to name a few feds that also need to practice with ammo.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:28   #37
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Let's see, I have been called Ignorant, having a lack of Common Sense, can't do Simple Math and having no Knowledge of Training. At the same time being told that I should know all of this having 30 years as a police officer, detective and detective supervisor.

Maybe you all are correct. For the last 8 years on the job I worked a specialized Surveillance Unit where we would sometimes remain in the field for days at a time. Before that I worked homicide and before that gang suppression and investigation. I was never involved in procuring ammunition or any other tools of the trade other that testing vests and individual weapons and vehicles for the units I was in.

I guess allot of you college boys who sometimes would work the field in between ordering thousands of rounds of ammunition for all weapons your department would use, and attempt to train others, then in the meantime bad mouth old dinosaurs like me and wonder why working cops don't understand the expenditures of his department.

I came on the job to arrest evil doers and did not care about who orders what in what quantity!

Someone's got to do it but bad mouthing those who don't are beneath most of you who really are cops!
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:47   #38
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Well, let's see: Do law enforcement have to be exposed to CS Gas? Check. Do they have to sprayed with OC spray? Check. Do they have to be shot with a taser gun? Check. So, taking a round in the butt can't be too far oof.
PA's as end users are not required to take the ride, or CS gas.

ETA: I saw you said LEO's in general. I thought you were talking about the Patrol.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:55   #39
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I forgot where I read it but someone did the math for every agency and every training and qual and all that and the math works out to about maybe a few year's worth of ammo for everything. Relatively speaking, it's not that big of a deal compared to how much ammo some of us hoard.

^^^ I've posted the math covering this in umpteen different threads. I won't go through the entire equation again, but here's some numbers to get you started:

DHS is REQUIRED to qualify quarterly, and the "standard" ammo issue per qual is 250 rounds. That's 1000 rounds of ammo per officer, per year. So multiply officers X 1000 rounds, and you get how many rounds per year each agency needs.

Or conversely, take the number of rounds purchased by the agency, divide it by 1000, then divide THAT figure by the number of officers, and you get how many years it will take to shoot up that ammo at current rates of consumption. Usually, you take the figure posted by the tinfoil hatter, then divide it by (officers*1000) and the answer is in the single digits, if it isn't a decimal figure.

People have no idea of the order of magnitude you're dealing with when it comes to Federal Government ammo consumption. Then again, most people also can't be bothered to do some basic math to check and see if the "sky is falling" headline they're parroting is going to make them look like an idiot or not.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:58   #40
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Oh, and I nearly forgot the tinfoil hat claim of "if all this ammo is for practice, why are they buying HOLLOWPOINTS?"

The answer was already covered by a previous post in this thread:

Quote:
We shoot the same ammo at the range as we shoot in the field for reasons of civil liability. This way if someone sues us over an officer involved shooting, their lawyer can't claim we were unfamiliar with the characteristics of our duty ammo because we only shoot ball at the range.
That, and also because if you shoot ball at the range, you can be guaranteed that some booger eater is going to sneak some home and it will find its way into his duty carry ammo. At DHS, we only deal with duty-carry ammo. This way we only have to deal with one type, and you don't have to worry about having the wrong kind on hand. We only have one type of ammo: the right kind (and damn the expense).

Tens of thousands of rounds for ANY agency in the Fed Gov is NOTHING. Statistically negligible.

Millions of rounds for an agency is maybe a 5 year supply, at best.

Billions of rounds - either an agency is expanding, or they're buying ammo a decade ahead, or it's a contract for multiple agencies, like maybe the entire DHS or DOJ putting out one collective contract for all the agencies under their umbrella.

A trillion plus rounds - Might be time to raise an eyebrow, unless it's a DOD wartime contract. For a civilian agency though, that *MIGHT* be an order of magnitude large enough where you might be justified in worrying.

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Old 11-03-2012, 21:02   #41
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This is rather weird question and follow up question to be coming from a "30 year cop". Most of this is common sense and simple math. I expect a conspiracy theorist to be shocked, not a LEO who should have basic knowledge of training and the ability to do simple math.
In his defense he is retired. Probably at least a few years if not more.

When I bump into some our retirees either looking to qual for thier guns or just bumping into them on the street they often get a puzzled look on their face when I tell them the latest. It takes me time to remember they haven't gotten memos for up to 15 years that I have gotten.

I always say the minute you walk out the door of your LE career you are pretty much out of date.

If you come back you need a refresher. I needed one when I came back from nearly a year off for surgeries.
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Old 11-03-2012, 21:18   #42
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a Wilson Combat 12 guage,
Holy crap. I'd never heard of these. I thought I was done with boomsticks...until I saw this:

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Old 11-04-2012, 00:03   #43
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Actually, and this is only in relation to what I have seen and heard with regards to the specific 85 grain Ranger SXT 380ACP ammo. When the LCP first came out and everyone and their second cousin once removed bought one for their backup, there came the need to buy enough 380 ammo for everyone to qual with their LCP.

Of course, there were other 380ACP backups and off duty weapons, but the LCP really took that caliber to a whole new level of prevalence. So, of course, the range/training crew bought up all the FMJ ammo to meet the needs of the officers.

Then the FTF started happening for some reason. Got to the point where the range crew just ordered the Ranger SXT ammo for quals as well as issue as they were the only ones to feed 100% in the LCP. So guess what, every 380 order was for SXT, aka JHP, no FMJ.

From the outside looking in, without any other information, it would look as if the orders for SXT in that caliber all of a sudden increased fivefold overnight. But it is not the entire picture.
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:10   #44
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I understand all of that but all of this ammo is JHP. You don't need JHP for training or qualifications.

And the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration's National Weather Service is getting 46,000 rounds of 40 S&W Jacketed Hollow Points. For what? I didn't know their were pistol packing weatherman!!!

The site is " http://guns.com/ ". Today's story!
I was shocked when I left the state, where we qualified and practiced with cheapo ammo, and went to the feds, where ammo pretty much seems to grow on trees.

Most years, I probably shot two or three thousand rounds at the range every year. When I retired, I think we had something like 6000 sworn. That's a lot of bullets.

I remember qualifiying by shooting hundreds of rounds of 62 grain .223 rounds that cost .70 each.

Federal purchasing is weird, too, sometimes. One agency will often purchase items on their contract for another agency, and it will look on paper like that agency bought it for themselves.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:12   #45
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In his defense he is retired. Probably at least a few years if not more.

When I bump into some our retirees either looking to qual for thier guns or just bumping into them on the street they often get a puzzled look on their face when I tell them the latest.

Same here. I've met a number of retirees who carry their .38s with LRN because that's what they retired with. I'm like, "do you realize you're three generations behind in .38 carry ammo?"

Which is why I try to round up as many boxes of duty issue Gold Dot .38s as I can. "Here you go, pops."
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:42   #46
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Same here. I've met a number of retirees who carry their .38s with LRN because that's what they retired with. I'm like, "do you realize you're three generations behind in .38 carry ammo?"

Which is why I try to round up as many boxes of duty issue Gold Dot .38s as I can. "Here you go, pops."
Worked for Jim Cirillo, didn't it?
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Old 11-04-2012, 14:07   #47
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Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
Let's see, I have been called Ignorant, having a lack of Common Sense, can't do Simple Math and having no Knowledge of Training. At the same time being told that I should know all of this having 30 years as a police officer, detective and detective supervisor.

Maybe you all are correct. For the last 8 years on the job I worked a specialized Surveillance Unit where we would sometimes remain in the field for days at a time. Before that I worked homicide and before that gang suppression and investigation. I was never involved in procuring ammunition or any other tools of the trade other that testing vests and individual weapons and vehicles for the units I was in.

I guess allot of you college boys who sometimes would work the field in between ordering thousands of rounds of ammunition for all weapons your department would use, and attempt to train others, then in the meantime bad mouth old dinosaurs like me and wonder why working cops don't understand the expenditures of his department.

I came on the job to arrest evil doers and did not care about who orders what in what quantity!

Someone's got to do it but bad mouthing those who don't are beneath most of you who really are cops!
Trigger finger we did pile on a bit. Thankyou for your service. In my defense I only accused you of being a captain or a chief.

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Old 11-05-2012, 03:53   #48
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Originally Posted by EPTSSP View Post
PA's as end users are not required to take the ride, or CS gas.

ETA: I saw you said LEO's in general. I thought you were talking about the Patrol.
I have been through three different agencies. I have been CS gased and OC sprayed. Fortunately, not tasered yet.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:55   #49
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Holy crap. I'd never heard of these. I thought I was done with boomsticks...until I saw this:

Cop Talk

Where is the googly-eyed, cupid's arrow/heart smiley?
We use/used the one's with the shorty barrels that would be a Tax Stamp to personally own. Either way, Wilson Combat isn't cheap. Also, I was suprised for all that dough they are prone to surface rust.
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