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Old 11-06-2012, 09:43   #201
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I've often wondered how much the tax burden would increase without FF and EMT volunteers. In NJ, almost all but the most urban communities are still served by vollies. They are an asset to the community. I was a volunteer EMT for over 10 years. Thousands of calls for service, and the community did not get charged a dime, other than donations they voluntarily made. Fortunately, most training for FF's and EMT's is still affordable that it can be picked up by the respective department. Once the training requirements go up, then you need to look at where the money is going to come from.
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Old 11-06-2012, 13:11   #202
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Just for the record, volunteers are just as able to attain the certifications. We've got EMT's in our department, along with Pro Board Certified members from Haz Mat ops and FF1 to Fire Officers and Fire Inspectors. No pay involved.
Well, sure. Like mentioned before, it's not all that hard to get your EMT-Basic with AED. All those classes mentioned could be knocked out in about 6 months. No paramedic would work for free unless they're doing it on the side though. It takes too much training to get to that level. That's not even taking into account protocols and medical direction. These sorts of things don't just happen. Not in the sue-happy state of the world we live in today.

Seriously, you all should consider taking some time to educate yourself on what you're talking about. CF, you and your neighbors are going to be the ones that suffer out of ignorance, not me. It's one thing to live in a community that can't afford these services, and that's understandable. Doesn't make much sense to have ALS fire in a community with one or two officers at most cruising around. Is that really the situation here though, or are you just upset with progress?
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Old 11-06-2012, 13:15   #203
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Voted against the renewal and the new tax. I don't respond well to threats and thug tactics.
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Old 11-06-2012, 13:17   #204
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After the employees get fired they can learn to weld so we can quit bringing in Mexicans to do it. No unions in the ship yards either.
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Old 11-06-2012, 15:02   #205
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Well, sure. Like mentioned before, it's not all that hard to get your EMT-Basic with AED. All those classes mentioned could be knocked out in about 6 months. No paramedic would work for free unless they're doing it on the side though. It takes too much training to get to that level. That's not even taking into account protocols and medical direction. These sorts of things don't just happen. Not in the sue-happy state of the world we live in today.
Not sure what you mean...

Lots of medics work for free to get the patient contact time they need for (in rare circumstances) DO school or more typically, PA school.

Nobody (more succinctly, very few people) goes thru EMT-B/ EMT-I/EMT-P school, RN school, LPN school to volunteer full time, all the time.

The salary for medics (nationwide average) is depressingly low - somewhere in the region of $15-17/hr. For that investment most folks who go thru 'medic school know that if they do the 2yr associate degree program they would be better off doing the RN program and averaging $25 hr.
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Old 11-06-2012, 15:52   #206
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5yrs as a volunteer medic.
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Old 11-06-2012, 17:27   #207
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it's always funny to read these union hatters.....some unions suck.....others don't.....just vote the way you want and be done with it.....
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Old 11-06-2012, 17:32   #208
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Not sure what you mean...

Lots of medics work for free to get the patient contact time they need for (in rare circumstances) DO school or more typically, PA school.

Nobody (more succinctly, very few people) goes thru EMT-B/ EMT-I/EMT-P school, RN school, LPN school to volunteer full time, all the time.

The salary for medics (nationwide average) is depressingly low - somewhere in the region of $15-17/hr. For that investment most folks who go thru 'medic school know that if they do the 2yr associate degree program they would be better off doing the RN program and averaging $25 hr.
DO school or PA school? Whatcha mean G? The two aren't in the same arena.
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Old 11-06-2012, 18:24   #209
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DO school or PA school? Whatcha mean G? The two aren't in the same arena.

No, they are not the same by any stretch, but are more similar than they are dissimilar....just like me, you, Tantrix and TBO collectively have more in common than any of us and Pelosi, Bloomberg and Obama.


Physician Assistant school
Doctor of Osteopathy


One (here, and in many instances in other places) requires a minimum # of patient contact hours (500-1500, depending on where, what school, etc).

The other...does not generally have a teaching hospital, and sometimes applicants need a referral from another DO and prior demonstrated experience with patient care.

Last edited by Gallium; 11-06-2012 at 18:25..
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Old 11-06-2012, 18:32   #210
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Not sure what you mean...

Lots of medics work for free to get the patient contact time they need for (in rare circumstances) DO school or more typically, PA school.

Nobody (more succinctly, very few people) goes thru EMT-B/ EMT-I/EMT-P school, RN school, LPN school to volunteer full time, all the time.

The salary for medics (nationwide average) is depressingly low - somewhere in the region of $15-17/hr. For that investment most folks who go thru 'medic school know that if they do the 2yr associate degree program they would be better off doing the RN program and averaging $25 hr.
Well obviously nobody volunteers full-time. I would go on a limb to say many who obtain First Responder or EMT certification, will either do so to volunteer only or to volunteer to gain experience to eventually get on a full-time paid position. I've known a few wanting to get in to PA school and go the medic route to have a paying job while in school. That was the only reason they had though.

I can tell you I didn't get into this profession to get rich. Sure, I could have gone to RN school and made more money. But then I wouldn't enjoy my work as much. Wearing scrubs, wiping butts, changing catheters...no thanks. Believe me, nurses usually earn that price difference.

We're seriously calling firefighters thugs though, just because they want to be paid for their work and expertise. I suppose the police should be all volunteer too. They're just a bunch of thugs with a union too after all.
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Old 11-06-2012, 19:07   #211
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I never said it was a good idea to use non tested/labeled product. I merely pointed out the difference (or lack thereof).

You can also take it further. Why not use double packed sterile gloves? That is much safer to the patient. Also, why allow latex? Some people have allergies to latex and that is one of the reasons to use nitrile gloves. Where do you want to stop?

FWIW we use double packed, sterile nitrile gloves.


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I see where you are coming from on this. Although it does seem like a good idea to just double glove, there's that whole liability part when it comes to the employer and OSHA standards.
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Old 11-06-2012, 19:08   #212
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No, they are not the same by any stretch, but are more similar than they are dissimilar....just like me, you, Tantrix and TBO collectively have more in common than any of us and Pelosi, Bloomberg and Obama.


Physician Assistant school
Doctor of Osteopathy


One (here, and in many instances in other places) requires a minimum # of patient contact hours (500-1500, depending on where, what school, etc).

The other...does not generally have a teaching hospital, and sometimes applicants need a referral from another DO and prior demonstrated experience with patient care.
That must be new. Its been a few years but I applied to and interviewed at a DO school and their requirements didn't differ significantly from allopathic (MD) schools. All looked favorably on some experience in healthcare work but focused on academic and MCAT numbers. The only difference I ever saw was that DO schools were slightly less competitive than MD schools.
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Old 11-06-2012, 19:12   #213
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Well obviously nobody volunteers full-time. I would go on a limb to say many who obtain First Responder or EMT certification, will either do so to volunteer only or to volunteer to gain experience to eventually get on a full-time paid position. I've known a few wanting to get in to PA school and go the medic route to have a paying job while in school. That was the only reason they had though.

I can tell you I didn't get into this profession to get rich. Sure, I could have gone to RN school and made more money. But then I wouldn't enjoy my work as much. Wearing scrubs, wiping butts, changing catheters...no thanks. Believe me, nurses usually earn that price difference.

We're seriously calling firefighters thugs though, just because they want to be paid for their work and expertise. I suppose the police should be all volunteer too. They're just a bunch of thugs with a union too after all.
We have a lot of paramedics floating around here who work 14 and 14 on oil rigs. 14 days on, 14 days off. 26 weeks off a year leaves a lot of room to be on a volunteer department.
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Old 11-06-2012, 21:17   #214
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We have a lot of paramedics floating around here who work 14 and 14 on oil rigs. 14 days on, 14 days off. 26 weeks off a year leaves a lot of room to be on a volunteer department.
I don't doubt that at all. The difference though is that a paramedic only does paramedic things if the agency he or she is representing has ALS protocols. ALS protocols require medical direction, which usually requires a paycheck to a local ER physician. Volunteer services don't have that kind of money. Seriously, I just wish you'd have your ER physician buddies explain this to you.

Last edited by slathrum; 11-06-2012 at 21:18..
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Old 11-06-2012, 23:08   #215
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I don't doubt that at all. The difference though is that a paramedic only does paramedic things if the agency he or she is representing has ALS protocols. ALS protocols require medical direction, which usually requires a paycheck to a local ER physician. Volunteer services don't have that kind of money. Seriously, I just wish you'd have your ER physician buddies explain this to you.

What state are you in?
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Old 11-06-2012, 23:43   #216
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What state are you in?
Missouri
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Old 11-06-2012, 23:49   #217
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I see where you are coming from on this. Although it does seem like a good idea to just double glove, there's that whole liability part when it comes to the employer and OSHA standards.
if I were making the decision, I would not take the liability as an employer to save money in this manner.
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Old 11-06-2012, 23:51   #218
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No, they are not the same by any stretch, but are more similar than they are dissimilar....just like me, you, Tantrix and TBO collectively have more in common than any of us and Pelosi, Bloomberg and Obama.
You think TBO agrees?
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Old 11-06-2012, 23:51   #219
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Well its done. The voters gave the FD the tax renewal but denied them the increase they asked for. I voted against both but can live with this. Let the chips fall where they may.

Best I can tell they're going to be shedding some excess weight.

Now to bust the union.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 11-06-2012 at 23:52..
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Old 11-06-2012, 23:53   #220
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I don't doubt that at all. The difference though is that a paramedic only does paramedic things if the agency he or she is representing has ALS protocols. ALS protocols require medical direction, which usually requires a paycheck to a local ER physician. Volunteer services don't have that kind of money. Seriously, I just wish you'd have your ER physician buddies explain this to you.

I hate to appear as if I am splitting hairs, but I think I'm about to learn something...


Not all ALS protocols require med direction. SOME of them do, but certainly not all, not even for your state.

Question: Is running a IV ALS or BLS ?

Answer: ALS.

Question: Do EMT-P need medical control /direction for running an IV?

Answer: No.
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Old 11-07-2012, 00:54   #221
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I hate to appear as if I am splitting hairs, but I think I'm about to learn something...


Not all ALS protocols require med direction. SOME of them do, but certainly not all, not even for your state.

Question: Is running a IV ALS or BLS ?

Answer: ALS.

Question: Do EMT-P need medical control /direction for running an IV?

Answer: No.
Really?!? BLS here(w/a variance)...

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Old 11-07-2012, 04:55   #222
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Really?!? BLS here(w/a variance)...

Red

That's why I asked where he was. MOST things in pre-emergency medical care are local.

Where I live, one set of EMT-B's cannot use a glucometer. In the very same county, another rescue squad has glucometers on their buses. Mind you, it takes 5 minutes tops to cover calibration, use of and disposal of sharps/potential for exposure/etc...but that is how its done here.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:47   #223
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You wonder why some localities use glucometers and some don't. Hmm, why is that? Oh wait...it's medical direction! Somewhere, someone took the trouble to develop a protocol that allows an EMT-B for such and such fire dept to make use of an intervention that is in the EMT-B scope of practice in your particular state. In this case it was the use of a glucometer. They then approached a physician who decided that it was a good idea and said physician felt reasonably comfortable in the ability of these EMT Basics to perform this intervention. This is how EMS works. Everywhere. Well, in the US anyway. Checking someone's blood sugar is an easy sell though. Not all that hard to keep from screwing that up. Even IV access is relatively benign. As the skill level goes up though, you typically need a good relationship between EMS provider and medical director in developing protocols and off-line medical direction. When it comes to performing invasive ALS procedures that typically only physicians perform in a controlled hospital setting, that sort of direction does not come easily or without a price.
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:28   #224
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You wonder why some localities use glucometers and some don't. Hmm, why is that? Oh wait...it's medical direction! Somewhere, someone took the trouble to develop a protocol that allows an EMT-B for such and such fire dept to make use of an intervention that is in the EMT-B scope of practice in your particular state. In this case it was the use of a glucometer. They then approached a physician who decided that it was a good idea and said physician felt reasonably comfortable in the ability of these EMT Basics to perform this intervention. This is how EMS works. Everywhere. Well, in the US anyway. Checking someone's blood sugar is an easy sell though. Not all that hard to keep from screwing that up. Even IV access is relatively benign. As the skill level goes up though, you typically need a good relationship between EMS provider and medical director in developing protocols and off-line medical direction. When it comes to performing invasive ALS procedures that typically only physicians perform in a controlled hospital setting, that sort of direction does not come easily or without a price.

I see you've completely missed my point. Additionally, there are instances where standing orders and new protocols have superseded "medical direction". In my state things flow down from the state level, and in many instances (fire in particular) the state and the rest of the nation takes cues from NY City.

I asked a question about ALS<>IV lines.

- G
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Old 11-07-2012, 13:17   #225
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Well its done. The voters gave the FD the tax renewal but denied them the increase they asked for. I voted against both but can live with this. Let the chips fall where they may.

Best I can tell they're going to be shedding some excess weight.

Now to bust the union.
That's a better result than the nation got last night.
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