GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-02-2012, 13:19   #51
FAS1
GT Sponsor
 
FAS1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 738
I'm curious as to how many homes/businesses in the community support this FD and how many fires/emergencies they respond to monthly?
__________________
Glenn

http://www.fas1safe.com
"The Fast and Secure One"
Link to Facebook: FAS1 SAFE
FAS1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:19   #52
VC-Racing
General Flunky
 
VC-Racing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: S.Fork of The Edisto River, SC
Posts: 2,217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
Probably not, ISO is a scam and once you lose a paid department look to see that rating screw you royally...Who do you think is employed to do the surveys???

Someone will drop a dime once your full time unit is disolved and that rating will go south.
It is based on where the water is, how many firefighters, type of equipment,, response times.... there is NO WAY a volunteer department can rate as good as a full time paid all else being equal.

Look here..
http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/2000/ppc2005.html



Not true. We are vol. and we have a 4 and has maintained it since 05 or 06 . Orangeburg SC Public Safety just went from a 4 to a 3 and they are full time . So to quote you again " there is NO WAY a volunteer department can rate as good as a full time paid all else being equal" thats horse hockey...
__________________
Son, never kick a fresh cow turd on a hot day .. Hank Jr. On "The View".

Last edited by VC-Racing; 11-02-2012 at 13:23..
VC-Racing is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:20   #53
huskerbuttons
Senior Member
 
huskerbuttons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 1,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
For decades we had a volunteer fire department. We taxed ourselves in our little district to build stations, provided them with whatever equipment they needed, new trucks, training, etc. The department had one full time employee, the chief.

Then, the department accepted a grant to hire 14 full time employees.

Then the department unionized. Added more paid employees.

Well, behold. The department is broke.

Now, the grant has run out and there is no money to pay the salaries so they're asking for an increase in taxes or else there will be a cut in services and people will lose their jobs. 90% of the budget now goes toward salaries and benes. Aren't public unions great for America?

I haven't talked to one person who plans to vote for the tax. We didn't need these FT employees with benefits for decades. We don't need them now. We'd prefer to see our home insurance increase than pay these union thugs.
I read very well. In your op you state the grant money has run out and there is no money. That is a decrease in revenue. I too would be upset if they were asking me to give them $500 more a year in taxes. And your opinion DOES matter, it matters a lot. But it matters in good times and in bad. When your Dad was the President of the board it was solvent. Now that people who have no idea how to budget and run a service are in charge, it sounds like it is going to hell in a handbasket.

What I am saying is that we need business people who know what the hell they are doing, running our services. It is when you risk your family and your neighbors family because of your anger that baffles me. You need to come to the table with a solution and a plan / deadline in which to accomplish it.

As for your income or value of your property I could care less. Everyone in my District has an equal share regardless of what they make or what they own. My board is made up of highly successfull business people who make the time to show up for meetings, knowing they make their community a better place to live.

I hope you can find a solution that is good for the community and the FD. You count on them to help you when you need it, now they are counting on you to help them when they need it.

Last edited by huskerbuttons; 11-02-2012 at 13:22..
huskerbuttons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:21   #54
Mayhem like Me
Semper Paratus
 
Mayhem like Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,152
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
It's a real union. "Firefighters Local #####" I believe. Was just on the web page.

Once a union is involved,it will continue to grow and grow in terms of cost and everytime they ask for more tax money they'll issue the same veiled threats if we don't give it.
But your state does not go by collective bargining so WTF did you all bend over and let this happen.. you have no one to blame but yourselves...

Your local government does not REPEAT DOES NOT have to deal with these guys...
__________________
How do you establish intent?
Well when a naked man is chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he's not collecting for the red cross...Inspector H. Callahan
Mayhem like Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:22   #55
Mayhem like Me
Semper Paratus
 
Mayhem like Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,152
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by VC-Racing View Post
Not true. We are vol. and we have a 4 and has maintained it since 2005 . Orangeburg SC Public Safety just went from a 4 to a 3 and they are full time . So to quote you again " there is NO WAY a volunteer department can rate as good as a full time paid all else being equal" thats horse hockey...
read the standards and get back to me...

ALL THNGS BEING EQUAL .. you will be penalized for having volunteer response vs response from in house.





Company personnel — ISO credits the personnel available for first alarms of fire. For personnel not normally in the fire station (for example, volunteers), ISO reduces the value of the responding members to reflect the delay due to decision, communication, or assembly. ISO then applies an upper limit for the credit for manning, as it is impractical for a very large number of personnel to operate a piece of apparatus. 15


So You In fact are WRONG..

If Orangeburg goes volunteer and remains a 3 call me....that would be apples to apples.
__________________
How do you establish intent?
Well when a naked man is chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he's not collecting for the red cross...Inspector H. Callahan

Last edited by Mayhem like Me; 11-02-2012 at 13:26..
Mayhem like Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:28   #56
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,683


Quote:
Originally Posted by huskerbuttons View Post
I read very well. In your op you state the grant money has run out and there is no money. That is a decrease in revenue. I too would be upset if they were asking me to give them $500 more a year in taxes. And your opinion DOES matter, it matters a lot. But it matters in good times and in bad. When your Dad was the President of the board it was solvent. Now that people who have no idea how to budget and run a service are in charge, it sounds like it is going to hell in a handbasket.

What I am saying is that we need business people who know what the hell they are doing, running our services. It is when you risk your family and your neighbors family because of your anger that baffles me. You need to come to the table with a solution and a plan / deadline in which to accomplish it.

As for your income or value of your property I could care less. Everyone in my District has an equal share regardless of what they make or what they own. My board is made up of highly successfull business people who make the time to show up for meetings, knowing they make their community a better place to live.

I hope you can find a solution that is good for the community and the FD. You count on them to help you when you need it, now they are counting on you to help them when they need it.
No you were talking about a decrease in tax base specifically. That isn't the case.

In my community it's a millage. That means the higher the assessment the higher the tax. It isn't an equal share. In fact, we have a $75000 exemption.

I'm investigating getting a board appointment now.
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:30   #57
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,683


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
But your state does not go by collective bargining so WTF did you all bend over and let this happen.. you have no one to blame but yourselves...

Your local government does not REPEAT DOES NOT have to deal with these guys...

I will let you know what I learn. This just bit my butt yesterday
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:33   #58
Dennis in MA
Get off my lawn
 
Dennis in MA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Taunton, MA
Posts: 52,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
We had an excellent rating as a volunteer department. It hasn't improved since becoming paid and unionized. The only thing that has changed are the expenses.

Yet interestingly enough the new chief is issuing all sorts of veiled threats about how the rating will drop and services will be less. We were fine before these THUGS came along. Where is their value?
Mass actually DEFEATED a proposal to lower the sales tax on thugs. Teacher union thugs. I had seemingly bright conservatives telling me we'd be broke with a sales tax decrease.

The last time we actually lowered taxes here the year started with a 1 a 9 and a 7. Sad.
__________________
The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd.
Dennis in MA is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:34   #59
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,683


Here's the great part. If we reject both the renewal and the new tax,my bill just here at home drops $750 per year.
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:37   #60
VC-Racing
General Flunky
 
VC-Racing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: S.Fork of The Edisto River, SC
Posts: 2,217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
read the standards and get back to me...

ALL THNGS BEING EQUAL .. you will be penalized for having volunteer response vs response from in house.
Company personnel — ISO credits the personnel available for first alarms of fire. For personnel not normally in the fire station (for example, volunteers), ISO reduces the value of the responding members to reflect the delay due to decision, communication, or assembly. ISO then applies an upper limit for the credit for manning, as it is impractical for a very large number of personnel to operate a piece of apparatus. This is 15% of the score for the Fire Station , but it doesn't give the total amount of penalty of paid over volunteer. Vol. depts still get some of this credit. its still not enough to affect the rating if the dept has met the other criteria.
__________________
Son, never kick a fresh cow turd on a hot day .. Hank Jr. On "The View".

Last edited by VC-Racing; 11-02-2012 at 13:39..
VC-Racing is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:39   #61
Bilbo Bagins
Slacked jawed
 
Bilbo Bagins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 11,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
For decades we had a volunteer fire department. We taxed ourselves in our little district to build stations, provided them with whatever equipment they needed, new trucks, training, etc. The department had one full time employee, the chief.

Then, the department accepted a grant to hire 14 full time employees.

Then the department unionized. Added more paid employees.

Well, behold. The department is broke.

Now, the grant has run out and there is no money to pay the salaries so they're asking for an increase in taxes or else there will be a cut in services and people will lose their jobs. 90% of the budget now goes toward salaries and benes. Aren't public unions great for America?

I haven't talked to one person who plans to vote for the tax. We didn't need these FT employees with benefits for decades. We don't need them now. We'd prefer to see our home insurance increase than pay these union thugs.

Why on earth did they go from one full time chief and a bunch of volunteers to adding 14 full time employees?

Also the killer with public unions are the benefits. My township pays $26K a year just for benefits, for each unionized employee. Then people wonder why some township go with private contractors to do trash, landscaping and snow plowing. Maybe because for the cost of one employee you can have the service contracted out.
Bilbo Bagins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:50   #62
hotpig
CLM Number 211
IAFF Local 4766
 
hotpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: SW / West Central Illinois
Posts: 4,401


My greedy Union Firefighter EMT starting salary is a few cents above minimum wage. We have to have them because the volunteers are unreliable since most have a job or two to support their families.

Years ago there was a waiting list at many of the volunteer and combination volunteer career departments. Those days are gone until people are able to have time to volunteer again.

The mandatory Government training runs many off. That does not even count the regular fire training that they have. Being a volunteer has become a full time job.

We have applied for the same grant. We will have to lay those firefighters off at the end of the grant unless they luck out and replace guys that retire or go to larger better paying departments. At the very least these grant firefighters get two experiencerience as a paid firefighter giving them points to get hired at other departments.

Having a tax increase and paying a extra 500.00 is just crazy. The only way that I would consider it would be if it saved that on my insurance. I think I read that the ISO on this department has not changed. I think the ISO says it takes seven volunteers to equate to one career firefighter. If they have good water and equipment they needassessed assesed again. We just went down another point after our last ISO inspection thanks to increased water supply and staffing.
__________________
Keep your guns stashed and your powder dry.
hotpig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:55   #63
fireguy129
NRA Member 2008
 
fireguy129's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Northeast Pa, usa
Posts: 2,644


How do you go from a volunteer with 1 paid chief to 14 paid guys??????? Nobody saw this trainwreck coming? Sounds like a SAFER grant expired, a few towns near me bought into them, thinking things would improve by the time the grant wound down. It didn't.
And just for the record. Small Volunteer department, under 100 calls a year. Under 2 minutes out the door, average response of 12 guys last year. We have a 6 in hydranted areas, a 9 outside of it. We would have scored lower, but another department in the municipality didn't keep records as well as they could have. That affected the whole community rating. If I remember right, it's about every 10-15 years for an evaluation.
fireguy129 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 13:57   #64
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,683


Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpig View Post
My greedy Union Firefighter EMT starting salary is a few cents above minimum wage. We have to have them because the volunteers are unreliable since most have a job or two to support their families.

Years ago there was a waiting list at many of the volunteer and combination volunteer career departments. Those days are gone until people are able to have time to volunteer again.

The mandatory Government training runs many off. That does not even count the regular fire training that they have. Being a volunteer has become a full time job.

We have applied for the same grant. We will have to lay those firefighters off at the end of the grant unless they luck out and replace guys that retire or go to larger better paying departments. At the very least these grant firefighters get two experiencerience as a paid firefighter giving them points to get hired at other departments.

Having a tax increase and paying a extra 500.00 is just crazy. The only way that I would consider it would be if it saved that on my insurance. I think I read that the ISO on this department has not changed. I think the ISO says it takes seven volunteers to equate to one career firefighter. If they have good water and equipment they needassessed assesed again. We just went down another point after our last ISO inspection thanks to increased water supply and staffing.
Something kinda unique here is that we have a lot of blue collar workers working shift work in their real jobs leaving room to volunteer.
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 14:08   #65
hotpig
CLM Number 211
IAFF Local 4766
 
hotpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: SW / West Central Illinois
Posts: 4,401


Quote:
Originally Posted by FAS1 View Post
I'm curious as to how many homes/businesses in the community support this FD and how many fires/emergencies they respond to monthly?
His department is tax based on the value assessment of property. So it does not matter if they have no calls or ten per pay. Population also does not matter although in most cases more people means more property to tax.

Like the military fire and police are paid for what they are ready to do more than what they actually do.

Really when you think about it we are paid to protect the value of a district more than the people. The higher the value regardless of population the more resources the department gets.
__________________
Keep your guns stashed and your powder dry.

Last edited by hotpig; 11-02-2012 at 14:09..
hotpig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 14:15   #66
fireguy129
NRA Member 2008
 
fireguy129's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Northeast Pa, usa
Posts: 2,644


What does 14 paid guys get you on a staffed day, 2? Call volume comes into play when the beans need to be counted. Is it worth $500k a year, when they roll once every 3 days? Any high hazard occupancies? Does the FD run EMS too? Hard to say for sure without knowing a lot more, but at the end of the day, the community gets what they pay for.
fireguy129 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 14:20   #67
hotpig
CLM Number 211
IAFF Local 4766
 
hotpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: SW / West Central Illinois
Posts: 4,401


Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Something kinda unique here is that we have a lot of blue collar workers working shift work in their real jobs leaving room to volunteer.
We used to have the same. Winchester, two steel mills, paper, box mfg, glass works, three oil refineries, Alcan ammo, and dozens of other medium and small plants.

The generation before me used to graduate high school and get multiple good paying job offers just in town.
__________________
Keep your guns stashed and your powder dry.
hotpig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 15:31   #68
Mayhem like Me
Semper Paratus
 
Mayhem like Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,152
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by VC-Racing View Post
Company personnel — ISO credits the personnel available for first alarms of fire. For personnel not normally in the fire station (for example, volunteers), ISO reduces the value of the responding members to reflect the delay due to decision, communication, or assembly. ISO then applies an upper limit for the credit for manning, as it is impractical for a very large number of personnel to operate a piece of apparatus. This is 15% of the score for the Fire Station , but it doesn't give the total amount of penalty of paid over volunteer. Vol. depts still get some of this credit. its still not enough to affect the rating if the dept has met the other criteria.
Like I said all things being equal the volunteer department cannot score as high...you were wrong its okay just be a man and admit it...I sat on a board to sift through this crap years ago I know a bit about how it works. At any rate good luck...CF you will need it our FD has its own mill rate and runs on calls we cancel them on just to inflate run numbers..

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
How do you establish intent?
Well when a naked man is chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he's not collecting for the red cross...Inspector H. Callahan
Mayhem like Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 15:47   #69
devildog2067
Senior Member
 
devildog2067's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Near Chicago, IL
Posts: 15,761
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpig View Post
The generation before me used to graduate high school and get multiple good paying job offers just in town.
The world has changed. It takes more skills than the average high school graduate has now to get a "good paying job" in America these days.

That's neither right nor wrong, it just is.
devildog2067 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 15:49   #70
VC-Racing
General Flunky
 
VC-Racing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: S.Fork of The Edisto River, SC
Posts: 2,217
Whatever, all Depts will never be equal.

There are some in another county that has 1 paid person during the day and 2 at night and relies on vol. to show up for equipment and manpower. They have the same rating as a vol. Dept., but are rated as a manned station. So as i said earlier , vol.depts can be rated just a good as a paid dept.
In our dept we have 24 on the roster. 17 of those are cert. FF . The other 7 are awaiting classes to be scheduled.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
__________________
Son, never kick a fresh cow turd on a hot day .. Hank Jr. On "The View".
VC-Racing is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 17:25   #71
Brucev
Senior Member
 
Brucev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
I know CF, and yes he can pay a difference of $500 without even noticing..

I think that his concern is..
a) $500 increase now, but where does it end?
b) The principal of not having your basic self-interests held hostage by union influence when past history proves that the community can provide for itself without a "public service employee union".
Judging from his various posts, CF is a whiner. What he notices or does not notice is irrelevant.

$500? For a house trailer, that would be a lot. Depending on the house, $500 would be about right.

As to unions, what's the problem? Businesses have their own union to advocate for their interest to the legislators which those businesses own and operate for their own interest. So, what's the problem with unions? Why are you so frightened of working men and women joining together to seek their own common interest? Are you afraid that they will force you to ... (it's a dirty word I know but someone has to say it ) ... accept compromise?
Brucev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 17:30   #72
Brucev
Senior Member
 
Brucev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
I take it you haven't read the whole thread.

Perhaps you'd like to send in my $500 additional tax? You'll receive the same value as me for it.
I've read the thread as it stood when the response was posted. The complaint, etc. boiled down to the same kabuki posturing protesting outrage at whatever it is that chaffs you.

As to additional tax and value received, it's irrelevant. Many Americans pay taxes for a dod that gives them exactly zero value. Many Americans pay for a fed. govt. that bails out wingtippers on wall street, from which they receive not value at all. Why should anyone care when you puff and blow over your bruised wallet? It's irrelevant. It just doesn't matter.
Brucev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 19:58   #73
devildog2067
Senior Member
 
devildog2067's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Near Chicago, IL
Posts: 15,761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Many Americans pay taxes for a dod that gives them exactly zero value.
I'm not going to argue that the Department of Defense is run correctly, or that it's efficient, or that it makes the best use of my taxpayer dollar. They could spend less money and still defend our country.

But if you honestly think the Department of Defense delivers zero value to the taxpayer you are absolutely insane. It's not an accident that America hasn't been invaded in 200 years--it's a strong military and good natural borders.
devildog2067 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 19:58   #74
RonS
Senior Member
 
RonS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Oh, USA
Posts: 10,170
The purpose of government is to make more government. Spending tax dollars to give grants to hire more government employees is quite common. They know that small towns will use the money to hire people and then not want to give them up when the grant runs out. Teachers, firemen, cops, lots of grants to hire them, not so many to keep them. Sounds like your little community took the bait.

I have no beef against unions, they have as much right to operate as private employers have to operate their businesses, although the government always favoring them with regulations and lawsuits is getting tiresome.

They say it is hard to cheat an honest man, your community wanted something for nothing, or perhaps like many towns and businesses they just under estimated the amount of economic growth that would be required to make the payments on what they wanted, like a guy planning on making his Vette payments with pay raises that he hasn't gotten yet.

I hope you can rebuild your VFD and that the voters learned something. I will say that your anger at the professionals who took those jobs is probably misplaced. They are just guys working for a living. They were offered good jobs and took them. If you can honestly say that in their shoes you would turn down a similar opportunity you need ask yourself if you really mean it or are just beating your chest. I don't know any VFD members who are young enough and qualified who wouldn't go pro if given the chance to work for a decent organization. Not their fault that those responsible for running and paying for the dept didn't do their jobs better.
__________________
Decent law abiding people must fear criminals and the law while criminals have nothing to fear.
RonS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2012, 20:08   #75
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,822
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Why are you so frightened of working men and women joining together to seek their own common interest?
Why are you so frightened of business owners joining together to seek their own common interest when setting prices and wages for workers?
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:59.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,041
345 Members
696 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42