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Old 11-02-2012, 18:35   #21
flyandscuba
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I'm running 230's at 1350+ from a 5" barrel - producing 930 ftlbs of energy. Compared to off the shelf 240's in 44 magnum from a 4" revolver at about the same speed - they are very similar in energy.

Can you load 44 Magnum hotter and push the bullets faster or heavier through an 8 3/8" revolver or an 18" carbine? Sure.

However, the goal with the 460 Rowland is to get mid-range 44 Magnum power from a comfortable to carry auto loader with a greater magazine capacity.


13+1 of my 1350+ 230's compared to 6 240's from a 44 revolver at a similar speed... Yeah, I'll take the 460 Rowland. Especially with an extra 13-rd magazine (or two) at the ready.

The numbers show that the 460 Rowland produces more energy than "full power" 10mm Auto from a similar sized pistol - which is what I am replacing...

It's not for everyone - but I'm satisfied with my decision.

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Old 11-02-2012, 20:37   #22
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The Rowland looks like an interesting cartridge. I am curious how your XD holds up in the long term with the added power.

I like the 1911 platform but there have been some reliability issues at 10mm power levels, raising this would seem to be pushing an already questionable situration.

Keep us posted.
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Old 11-02-2012, 20:39   #23
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Cool pistol, no doubt ... and I'm guilty of loving my powerful autoloaders. And I'll never talk down on the .460 - hell, I almost converted my old Kimber to one.

Enjoy that pistol. Some gel tests would be nice!
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Old 11-02-2012, 20:42   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copo9560 View Post
The Rowland looks like an interesting cartridge. I am curious how your XD holds up in the long term with the added power.

I like the 1911 platform but there have been some reliability issues at 10mm power levels, raising this would seem to be pushing an already questionable situration.

Keep us posted.
I honestly don't see any problem with 10mm 1911's OR these compensated conversions. If try are built nice and tight they will last at LEAST tens of thousands of rounds.
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Old 11-02-2012, 21:05   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyandscuba View Post
I'm running 230's at 1350+ from a 5" barrel - producing 930 ftlbs of energy. Compared to off the shelf 240's in 44 magnum from a 4" revolver at about the same speed - they are very similar in energy.

Can you load 44 Magnum hotter and push the bullets faster or heavier through an 8 3/8" revolver or an 18" carbine? Sure.

However, the goal with the 460 Rowland is to get mid-range 44 Magnum power from a comfortable to carry auto loader with a greater magazine capacity.


13+1 of my 1350+ 230's compared to 6 240's from a 44 revolver at a similar speed... Yeah, I'll take the 460 Rowland. Especially with an extra 13-rd magazine (or two) at the ready.

The numbers show that the 460 Rowland produces more energy than "full power" 10mm Auto from a similar sized pistol - which is what I am replacing...

It's not for everyone - but I'm satisfied with my decision.

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I'm sorry. Did you say "comfortable to carry"? Excuse me are talking about a g21 with a 1-2 inch compensator?
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:36   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyandscuba View Post
The bullet is the same as 45 ACP (.451) and you can use regular 45 ACP dies to reload with. Once a pistol (1911, XD, or Glock) has been converted to 460 Rowland, you can shoot 45 Super, 45 ACP +P, and 45 ACP through the pistol without changing the barrel (no conversion barrel needed - unless you wanted to get one for 400 Corbon... Dont know why you would want that) springs, or mags -- the extractor is strong enough to keep the cartridge at the proper headspace.
This actually sounds like a great idea to me, and if I wasn't already so "invested" in 10mm, I would be seriously considering it. I'm just not in a financial situation right now to "invest" in the 460 Rowland, and I'm not going to sell my 10mm guns and dies until I no longer have enough strength in my hands to fire them, in which case, would also be the end of the 460 for me.

I was curious, though, if you don't mind me asking...does this set up suffer from the same thing the 10mm does? That is, most .40 bullets are made to expand at lower velocities, so don't hold up well at 10mm auto velocity. I would think that for most or all bullets made for .45ACP, that problem would actually be worse for the 460 Rowland. So is there anything other than hard cast bullets tough enough to withstand the 460's velocity and still expand/perform properly? I'm almost thinking if you could use bullets made for .45LC (.454) you wouldn't have a problem, but unless you could resize them to .451...I don't see that working too well.
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:09   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDC20 View Post
This actually sounds like a great idea to me, and if I wasn't already so "invested" in 10mm, I would be seriously considering it. I'm just not in a financial situation right now to "invest" in the 460 Rowland, and I'm not going to sell my 10mm guns and dies until I no longer have enough strength in my hands to fire them, in which case, would also be the end of the 460 for me.

I was curious, though, if you don't mind me asking...does this set up suffer from the same thing the 10mm does? That is, most .40 bullets are made to expand at lower velocities, so don't hold up well at 10mm auto velocity. I would think that for most or all bullets made for .45ACP, that problem would actually be worse for the 460 Rowland. So is there anything other than hard cast bullets tough enough to withstand the 460's velocity and still expand/perform properly? I'm almost thinking if you could use bullets made for .45LC (.454) you wouldn't have a problem, but unless you could resize them to .451...I don't see that working too well.
The problem is, the .45LC, .454C and up jacketed bullets are usually to heavy/long to be effectively used in the .460R. The smaller HD/SD bullets suffer the same performance limitations as other lower velocity cartridge bullets, including the 10mm. Most .451", 230 gr. JHP's are rated subsonic or trans-sonic (.45 Super), but not to say they wouldn't work. It depends on what you consider acceptable bullet performance. A JSP or HC bullet would be a much better option, all things considered, if you want to take advantage of full potential .460R.

Bullet diameters are a non-issue. The ".45's" are the same bore. The .45ACP, .45S, .45GAP, .45WM, .45LC, .454C, .460SW, and .460R are all .451" bore.

Now, the claim that the .460R brings full (or even moderate) .44M power, is a serious overstatement, and misleading. It doesn't. It's an impressive cartridge, to be sure, but it's not all that.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1360165

Start reading at post #190.
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Old 11-03-2012, 17:11   #28
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Here's the thing that I don't get:

Quote:
The 460 case is 0.060" longer than a 45ACP
That doesn't seem like much, so I look up the load tables....

http://www.loaddata.com/members/sear...loading%20Data

VS

http://www.loaddata.com/members/sear...=26&header=.45

... and the two cartridges are using completely different sets of powders. Obviously, the Rowlands loads are hotter.... but, is the Rowland's case radically stronger than the .45ACP case? If so, ......



The concept of lopping off .060 of an inch and reloading a Rowland short comes to mind.
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Old 11-03-2012, 18:07   #29
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The .45 acp and Super are limited by pressure rather than case capacity. The extra length is just to prevent chambering in the wrong gun. Stronger brass just means you hit your pressure limit sooner due to reduced case capacity.

There are a few guys using LW barrels and running 460 R type loads, not sure that it is especially smart, but.... It isn't like modern brass and barrels are going to grenade if you exceed .45ACP pressures, or even .45 Super. The problem is you really need some slide weight and/or a comp when you are pushing that far past the designed parameters.

-Edit- After doing some calcs, I would NOT use a LW barrel at .460R pressures. It probably wouldn't grenade the first time out, but proof load pressures would be higher than burst pressure, so the safety margin would be REALLY thin. The .45 barrel is only about 77% as strong as the 10mm barrel if they are made of the same material and heat treated the same, while the Roland pressure is slightly higher than 10mm.

Last edited by Any Cal.; 11-03-2012 at 21:09..
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Old 11-03-2012, 18:24   #30
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You could load 45 Super brass to 460 Rowland pressures - just don't shoot it in a non-comp'd or non-ported ACP barrel... You need either the comp or ports to delay unlocking & to slow the slide velocity.

The longer case of the 460 Rowland is purely for the purpose of preventing chambering in a 45 ACP barrel - it adds no additional case capacity, as the bullets are seated deeper into the case to retain the OAL needed for 45 ACP magazines.


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Old 11-03-2012, 18:46   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervaDoe View Post
Here's the thing that I don't get:


That doesn't seem like much, so I look up the load tables....

http://www.loaddata.com/members/sear...loading%20Data

VS

http://www.loaddata.com/members/sear...=26&header=.45

... and the two cartridges are using completely different sets of powders. Obviously, the Rowlands loads are hotter.... but, is the Rowland's case radically stronger than the .45ACP case? If so, ......



The concept of lopping off .060 of an inch and reloading a Rowland short comes to mind.
The reason for lengthening the case is not to increase case capacity. The C.O.L. is the same, for .45ACP and.460R. It is to ensure the Rowland round isn't chambered into a .45ACP pistol. The .45ACP barrels aren't designed to withstand over twice their original pressure. The .460R internal case capacity is actually slightly less than the .45ACP, as the case wall, web and head are thicker, more or less a lengthened .45 Super case.
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Old 11-03-2012, 19:24   #32
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FlyandScuba,

I'm pretty interested in the Rowland.

Do you happen to know how it performs at longer range? Does the 10mm carry out to 100 yards better, or does the 460 still have a power advantage at that kind of range? I'm specifically wondering about the comparison with each being fired out of a Mechtech (so a long barrel).

You don't have any ballistics info that can answer my question, do you?

Thanks for any help or info.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:41   #33
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Since the thread is already doing this...

I am getting rid of ALL 10mm as well. Nicke10mm has seen the pic of my gun. It is as new. G20SF, 4 high caps, KKM, LW, 6" factory, and the stock barrel in the G20. (4) barrles !

PM me for PICS and prices.. All Is in tip top like brand new cond. The KKM has about 20rds through it, LW not many, the whole gun about 100 rds 'maybe' !

Not a high jack here, just tired of it, and see no need in it, (the 10) and got brass , lead etc, as well. Getting another M1911 45acp I don't need !

BTW.... NO cut what soever on the 10mm. Just for "ME" I have no further use for it, and like the OP, I got other plans !

Have missed all you old boys... We're hangin in there.. Thanks to all who write us and check on us !

Thanks OP for allowing my post. Good luck with your project amigo !

Y'all stay safe !


Bless y'all


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Old 11-04-2012, 12:48   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
The reason for lengthening the case is not to increase case capacity. The C.O.L. is the same, for .45ACP and.460R. It is to ensure the Rowland round isn't chambered into a .45ACP pistol. The .45ACP barrels aren't designed to withstand over twice their original pressure. The .460R internal case capacity is actually slightly less than the .45ACP, as the case wall, web and head are thicker, more or less a lengthened .45 Super case.
Good info.
Thanks.
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Old 11-04-2012, 17:18   #35
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Looks interesting for sure, I said sayonara to the 10mm as well. I do load for the .45 Super and I've reached the conclusion that it's enough for me. I know the 460 does even more than the .45 Super, but the way I look at it is, driving .45 ACP bullets a lot faster than they're designed to isn't always a good thing, bullet failure is almost guaranteed. I do like that you can load and fire some heavier (250gr+) loads and they will work as long as they will feed, but most are revolver bullets and don't always feed the best in semi-autos.
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Old 11-05-2012, 21:03   #36
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Boy, its tempting.

But, I think I am going to stick with the 10mm. Its about all I'll really use, if i need more power, there is the FNFAL.

I looked hard at the 460 early on, but was put off that the brass was 2-3X that of 10mm.
I get 45 brass for the picking, but i BUY 10mm brass, as i think its about the best all around caliber out there. I like the 40 option as well.

for PURE practicality, and for general SD use, the 45 it about tops.

When we start talking 10mm/460/44 we start getting into the 80/20 rule territory, in a way. we are out there.

Who knows? Next year I might be back with revolvers.
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Old 11-05-2012, 21:19   #37
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As I shoot a lot of .44 Mag in revolvers, I too considered dumping my 10mm equipment. I rarely shoot it anymore. Every time I get it ready for a "photo session", I decide to put it back in the safe and let it sit some more. My G20 has carried me through more than a few competitions and I actually like it.

Last year, a friend brought up buying a G21 upper for it...then I could have both 10mm and .45 cal cartridges with the same frame.
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Old 11-05-2012, 21:22   #38
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If it is safe to fire 45 ACP in a barrel chambered for the Rowland 460 then by the same reasoning it should be safe to fire 40 S&W out of the 10mm without bothering with a conversion barrel no? The differences in length being .06 inches and .14 inches respectively.
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Old 11-05-2012, 21:54   #39
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Yep, it is fine in a Glock, not necessarily in other guns.
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Old 11-08-2012, 15:00   #40
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What I want to know if if you (flyandscuba) still have the converted AMT backup and if you are planning to sell it and what you are looking to get for it. Should I delay my purchase of a wood stove?
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