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Old 11-02-2012, 09:22   #101
English
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Originally Posted by gatorboy View Post
""But, English, a scaled up G-17 is what everyone has always said the G-22 actually is! The G-22 is really nothing more than a trial and error modified G-17 - Which is exactly how I think Gaston and the boys actually built the thing. (Compliments of the ingenuous gun-buying American public.)""
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The slides were heavier from day one. The barrel and chamber were both made very close to the same thickness as the 9mm (by way of larger breechface [duh] and larger O.D. barrel) which is same pressure. Other than 20# recoil spring which many of us 40 and 357auto shooters did, what else is there? Make it fat like a 10mm/45? Only reason I don't carry 10mm everyday personally.
Thanks for that. I can see that the 22 is heavier than the 17 by 0.88 oz and so the slide is the same extra weight, but do you know the slide weight? The standard recoil spring is, I believe, the same.

I am happy with both possibilities for weight, That is, the present light weight and a heavier weight with a slightly wider slide. One provides easier carry and the other provides nicer shooting with less felt recoil. I believe that the extra slide width need not go outside the frame width to give a substantial benefit. It does not need to b as fat as the .45, but neither would it be as soft shooting.

For what it is worth, I would stick with the present size and weight if I were carrying for extended periods. That is especially so for the G33 and 27.

English
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:09   #102
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Has anyone here ever worn out a .40 Glock, or any .40, or any pistol at all? I think this is a huge red herring.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:31   #103
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Originally Posted by English View Post
Thanks for that. I can see that the 22 is heavier than the 17 by 0.88 oz and so the slide is the same extra weight, but do you know the slide weight? The standard recoil spring is, I believe, the same.

I am happy with both possibilities for weight, That is, the present light weight and a heavier weight with a slightly wider slide. One provides easier carry and the other provides nicer shooting with less felt recoil. I believe that the extra slide width need not go outside the frame width to give a substantial benefit. It does not need to b as fat as the .45, but neither would it be as soft shooting.

For what it is worth, I would stick with the present size and weight if I were carrying for extended periods. That is especially so for the G33 and 27.

English
If the G22 was made from the frame, barrel, and slide of a G17, then wouldn't the G22 weigh less from having less metal in the barrel than the G17?
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Old 11-02-2012, 13:21   #104
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Has anyone here ever worn out a .40 Glock, or any .40, or any pistol at all? I think this is a huge red herring.
^^^Exactly. You would think someone with his experience in the training world could show us a few examples of these .40s that had to be put out to pasture.

I'll be happy to give them a good home.
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Old 11-02-2012, 13:33   #105
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^^^Exactly. You would think someone with his experience in the training world could show us a few examples of these .40s that had to be put out to pasture.

I'll be happy to give them a good home.
My G17 is 24 years old. It is still going strong with a new frame and barrel.
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Old 11-02-2012, 14:03   #106
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My 23 is a '97 vintage, and runs fine. Shoots cloverleafs if I do my part.
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Old 11-02-2012, 16:26   #107
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Well, I recognised his training site as one of the big name ones but didn't know he was James Yeager. Now that I know that I am no more impressed. I only noticed one correct thing in his whole presentation, and that was that many .40S&W pistols were scaled up 9mms and that as such they were not heavy enough for the recoil of the round. In passing he admitted that this was not true of the HK and other pistols designed specifically for the .40. Even that is only partly true in a pratical sense because the Glock, with its light weight, is easier to carry and for many that more than outweighs the extra felt recoil. Think of a Glock in .40S&W as sharing the characeristics of a pocket pistol. Power per ounce is a major criterion! 2 inch 357 Magnum snubies are not fun to shoot but people still carry them for good reason.

The wear issue is unimportant and he misunderstands it. Even if the pistols wear out in, say, 35,000 rounds, the cost of replacing the pistol is small relative to the total cost of ammunition expended. Many people who carry a pistol 12 or more hours a day will think that a saving of 4 to 6 oz or so is a good trade off.

If the .40 is a high pressure round, so is the 9mm - they are very close. More important the pressure inside the barrel has very little effect on wear. Bullet momentum and slide velocity are the most significant parameters for wear rate and the bullet momentum of his favoured .45ACP is much higher than the 9mm but designers usually deal with it by having a heavier slide. A 9mm conversion barrel will not drive the slide fast enough in a G21 or 20 for instance. The bullet momentum of the .40S&W, as originally defined from the FBI tests which established the 10mm Lite, had a bullet momentum equal to the normal 230gn .45ACP.

That segues into the FBI and the ontogenesis of the .40S&W. When the FBI set up the test protocol for their post Miami Shootout pistol selection they specified that no round had to have more than the bullet momentum of the normal .45ACP. ab initio, they included the .38Sp for comparisson, since that was what had failed in Miami, the 9mm and the .45ACP. Only once the test team was set up did one of the team suggest the inclusion of the 10mm. The idea was agreed to, but, because of the recoil limit, he handloaded all the test rounds to equal the recoil of the .45ACP using a 180gn bullet. By a very small margin that light loading of the 10mm beat the .45ACP but the team said they would be hapy with either.

This had several consequences. The first was that the FBI ordered a large quantity of 10mm loaded to the test specification. They never had full power 10mm rounds. The second was that they ordered a big batch of 10mm pistols from S&W. Those pistols were about 3 oz heavier than the 1911 Government model and so had slightly less felt recoil. All the so amusing stories about the recoil being too much for wimpy FBI Agents were just nonsense. The scrapping of the 10mm project and the escape from the S&W contract were all a matter of internal politics and a rather dirty story. It was a couple of years before S&W brought out the .40S&W and so it was not a matter of the FBI choosing it as a replacement for the 10mm.

So we have the famous, extremely self confident but ignorant James Yeager repeating the tales that he could pick up in any gun website, without wondering if they are true or false.

Perhaps most importantly, he makes the unsupported claim that all the main cartridges are as effective as each other - 9mm, .40S&W, 357SIG, .45GAP and .45ACP - but that on the spurious basis of pressure one shoud choose either the 9mm or the .45ACP. That is, the two cartridges with the greatest divergence of characteristics - light and moderately fast versus heavy and distinctly slow! To know that the five major self defence rounds are equal in their effects he would have had to shoot lots of people with the different rounds under controled circumstances. Neither he, nor anyone else, has done that. He is talking nonsense.

And then he makes the claim that he has trained 3000 people in the last month alone. That is 100 per day if he works a 30 day month. I wonder how much personal attention he gives them? Does he give them all some kind of survey to fill in of how long their various pistols last? If he does such a thing why does he not tell us the results rather than saying that he is a great trainer and so he just knows.

The simple truth is that James Yeager can probably teach people to shoot pistols with reasonable competence, but he has little or no understandig of the nature of knowledge, and its falsification or verification within some limits of confidence.

English
he said 3000 students last year , not last month ....
How many ppl did you trained??
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:40   #108
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G22 or G23

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My 23 is a '97 vintage, and runs fine. Shoots cloverleafs if I do my part.
I am having a hard time choosing!
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Old 11-06-2012, 13:13   #109
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Has anyone here ever worn out a .40 Glock, or any .40, or any pistol at all? I think this is a huge red herring.
180's are docile in .40! The HST 180 is IMO, the best bang for your buck when considering price, recoil, performance and ease of attaining. It is what I would suggest my mother, daughter and wife to use. I like them also but prefer 155-165 GD's which admittedly take more practice and strength because they are a bit 'poppy' I guess you could say. ANYONE without physical limitations could learn to be sufficient enough with the .40 to make the jump to higher (though I agree, slight) performance than the 9mm worth it.

9mm is fine, I believe it. .40 is better and I believe that also.
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Old 11-06-2012, 13:20   #110
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And those 200+P GD's recoil harder than any .40 load. Using the M&P 45C as a comparison to the G23 with G-A 155 GD's @ 1,300. The M&P is quite a bit heavier also. I like them though, a good (the best) 200 gr. .45 bullet IMO.
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Old 11-06-2012, 13:39   #111
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180's are docile in .40! The HST 180 is IMO, the best bang for your buck when considering price, recoil, performance and ease of attaining. It is what I would suggest my mother, daughter and wife to use. I like them also but prefer 155-165 GD's which admittedly take more practice and strength because they are a bit 'poppy' I guess you could say. ANYONE without physical limitations could learn to be sufficient enough with the .40 to make the jump to higher (though I agree, slight) performance than the 9mm worth it.

9mm is fine, I believe it. .40 is better and I believe that also.
I moved up from 9mm not to cut a bigger hole with the increased diameter so much as to be able to launch heavier projectiles. If I could have found a G21 when I was looking, instead of the G23 I did find, I'd be shooting .45 instead, a 230 gr bullet ( I keep the 23 loaded with 180 gr HP). My reasoning is, use as much mass as possible to punch through bone- ribs, sternum, etc. - using a hollow-point bullet to try to prevent the bullet from exiting the BG and injuring a bystander.
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Old 11-06-2012, 14:21   #112
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^ Sound reasoning for the switch. My favorite 180's are HST and GS Bonded for a bonded bullet.

14 180's weigh two oz. less than 14 230's. G4 23 is about an oz. less than G4 21 (just weighed both unloaded, no mags). 23 is about 5/8" shorter slide and 1/2 shorter grip. I think you did well there also.

Most 180's penetrate better than most 230's, especially through barriers. Takes a +P to get the velocity close to a 180 and that would be from a 5" barrel. Sectional Density is almost identical with the 180 @ .160 and the 230 @ .162

The 180 and 230 HST are hard to decypher when fully expanded through naked water jugs looking from the top. From the side and back they're more easliy distinguished when side by side.
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Old 11-06-2012, 15:18   #113
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@gator- I use the Q4369 Winchester White box 180 gr JHP ammo- it's the same bullet, same velocity, as the 180 gr PDX1- the Q4369 is loaded in brass cases, PDX1 in nickel-coated brass.

I run an odd trigger combo too. I use the 8 lb connector it came with (old police trade-in) with a 6 lb trigger spring. I shoot just fine with it; I ordered and tried a stock, 5 lb connector, and tried the stock spring too, but went back to the + connector and 6 lb spring. I read that the most popular combo is the exact opposite- 3.5 lb conn with NY1 spring. I haven't tried that combo. The gun is for HD, and I like the fact that it's not going off without a deliberate pull of the trigger.

I go to the range early sometimes, to have the pistol range to myself, to practice point shooting, left hand shooting, etc. I had the 23 in my left hand with the 5 lb conn/5 lb spring in it, and was thinking about my next shot, when it went off with next to no conscious input from me- I had tightened my grip in anticipation of the next shot, and milked it. It was probably just part of getting the left-hand used to shooting, but it didn't happen with the + conn, so that went back in. Next range trip, no problems. I figured, if it could happen at the range, admittedly with my left hand (I'm a righty), then it could happen under stress, with my dominant right hand, even though I spend considerable time at the range (since I bought my first in '94, a police trade-in 686).
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Old 11-06-2012, 15:32   #114
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Mr. Yeager's credentials speak for themselves:

• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Less Lethal Munitions #00040S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Firearms #00041S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Chemical Weapons #00042S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Expandable Baton #00043S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified Police Officer and K-9 handler #97276 - inactive
* Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
* F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
* TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
* FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed” courses
* A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
* Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
* Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
* Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
* Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
* Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
* NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
* NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
* Glock Certified Armorer
* Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
* Knife Defense Instructor
* Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
* Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
* S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
* Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
* Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
* Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
* Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
* Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
* Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
* Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
* S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
* D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
* Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
* Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
* Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
* John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
* Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
* SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
* 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
* Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
* 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
* 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
* 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
* 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
* Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
* Pat Rogers 3-Day Carbine Operator Course
* Caliber Press - Street Survival 2 days
* Glock 2.5 day Instructor Workshop
* NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor
* Rogers Shooting School - Pistol / Intermediate
* Rogers Shooting School - Rifle / Advanced
* Surefire Tactical Technology Specialist Course
* Larry Vickers' AK Operator Course
And yet, he still can't manage to handle the .40! I guess it's those small hands or something.

The short man's disease is strong with this one.
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Last edited by Roering; 11-06-2012 at 15:34..
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Old 11-06-2012, 15:55   #115
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With all those certifications you would think he would know when a parking brake is engaged on a vehicle. Just goes to show you can have countless numbers of certs to hang on the wall but when the SHTF your mind and Murphy's law will still **** with you.

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Old 11-07-2012, 10:57   #116
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I agree

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With all those certifications you would think he would know when a parking brake is engaged on a vehicle. Just goes to show you can have countless numbers of certs to hang on the wall but when the SHTF your mind and Murphy's law will still **** with you.

Paulie
Murphy's Law sxxcks!
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Old 11-07-2012, 14:07   #117
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With all those certifications you would think he would know when a parking brake is engaged on a vehicle. Just goes to show you can have countless numbers of certs to hang on the wall but when the SHTF your mind and Murphy's law will still **** with you.

Paulie
I might be mistaken, because my eyes got tired reading through the list, but I don't think there was a single qualification for parking brake releasing.

English
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Old 11-07-2012, 16:07   #118
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I might be mistaken, because my eyes got tired reading through the list, but I don't think there was a single qualification for parking brake releasing.

English
His list of qualifications covers a lot of stuff, and those are just the formal classes. How much did he learn from casual visits to civilian shooting ranges?
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Old 11-07-2012, 21:31   #119
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Here is why Rob Pincus prefers the 9mm over the 40S&W.

http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_...1b43S,bbSbHJ7K
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Old 11-07-2012, 23:15   #120
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When did Col. Jeff Coopers advice and wisdom no longer become relevant? The man that pioneered the very body of knowledge that many of these uber-operators try to pass as their own.




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