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Old 10-31-2012, 16:20   #81
uz2bUSMC
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Eh... I'll save it for another time.
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Last edited by uz2bUSMC; 11-01-2012 at 07:19..
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Old 10-31-2012, 23:00   #82
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I love how he makes a small *****/compensation joke about guys who shoot .40s.

And yet...

Shaved head (check)
Goatee (check)
Tat sleeve (check)
Overly tight t-shirt (check)

So, what's this guy compensating for?
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:32   #83
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Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
I've shot .45 200+P Gold Dot and it was HARSH. I don't even want to mess with 230+P.

I know you carry 165gr Gold Dots in .40. I forget what you use in .45.... 230gr Gold Dot?
Your correct. In .40, I primarily carry the 165 Gold Dot. I also really like my test results with the Ranger T-Series in the same weight.

The 200 +P in .45 is a bit snappy out of the poly guns. In a all metal frame gun such as a 1911 or a Sig 220, it's not as bad.

In .45 I usually carry the 230 Grain Gold Dot but lately I've been carrying the Ranger T-Series 230 grain JHP (RA45T) standard pressure load. (I got a good deal on a thousand rounds of RA45T so I couldn't pass it up. Besides, my supply of 230 Gold Dot is drying up.)

I'm very strongly considering the HST 230+P though. (I'm actually considering +P ammo. I never thought I'd see the day I'd do that! LOL!)

It's the only +P load I've tested so far that doesn't feel like +P but still delivers on the velocity!

I'm normally not a big fan of +P ammo in any caliber since it's usually a good bit more snappy than the standard pressure stuff. This HST load is the one exception so far. I don't know how they did it but it delivers on the velocity and shoots like standard pressure ammo!

It has more muzzle blast but I don't notice a change in recoil or point of impact from the standard pressure Ranger ammo, standard 230 ball, or the 230 Gold Dot.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:33   #84
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Originally Posted by Henry's Dad View Post
I love how he makes a small *****/compensation joke about guys who shoot .40s.

And yet...

Shaved head (check)
Goatee (check)
Tat sleeve (check)
Overly tight t-shirt (check)

So, what's this guy compensating for?


Certainly not his over inflated ego!

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Old 11-01-2012, 01:39   #85
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Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
I've shot .45 200+P Gold Dot and it was HARSH. I don't even want to mess with 230+P
Yes. In most cases, that's the trade off with +P ammo and why I've almost completely avoided it over the years.

However, as the case is with the HST 230 +P that I've been extensively testing in the past few months, I guess there are always exceptions that are a game changer!
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Last edited by NEOH212; 11-01-2012 at 01:40..
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:17   #86
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Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
You might, very well, have a point; however, Iím still concerned about the 40ís exceedingly high initial pressure spike. I donít like it; and it causes me to mistrust any polymer frame pistol the 40 is used in. (Letís not forget the first 40ís and 10ís were metal frame pistols.)
I presume you mean the pressure spike shortly after ignition but also presume that it is within SAAMI limits. At that time, the pressure is contained entirely within the barrel and breechface with the barrel locked into the slide. As such the material of the frame is unimportant provided it can take the recoil loads and the right polymers are well able to do that. The great advantage of polymer in a burst case or chamber is that the high pressure gases don't burst the frame and the pressure is exhausted, along with the magazine, through the magazine well. The disadvantage with the metal framed pistol in the same circumstance is that the same pressure breaks the wooden grips and drives the splinters into the shooter's hand. If the burst happened forward of the trigger guard, I can believe that a metal dust cover would offer more protection than a polymer one but that is a much rarer event.

What bothers me with the .40S&W and 357SIG is that fitting a bigger diameter case into the space designed for a 9mm might result in thinner walls and burst chambers in cases where a 9mm with the same level of malfunction might survive, bulged but unburst. This obviously doesn't bother me very much because I have not investigated it.

I do agree that the .40S&W has stretched the limits a little too far. The 10mm is able to produce so much more performance simply because its extra case volume allows it to reduce the spike. By squeezing 10mm Lite performance into the length of the 9mm they are pushing close to the limit of the pressure spike. This, I think, is why there are +p and +p+ loads for the 9mm but not for the 40S&W. If they had designed it to be even as litle as 1 or 1.5mm longer they would have avoided the problem. That would have meant that new designs of pistol would have to have been made and they would then have been designed to be the proper weight. The slight front to back length increase of the grip would not have been as difficult for shorter hands to accommodate as with the 10mm and more people might now be shooting the S&W .40 instead of the .45ACP.

We have talked, in this thread, of the fact that some .40S&W pistols were designed as slight modifications of existing 9mm, but that others, HK and Steyr for instance, were designed for the .40 in the first place with 9mms versions of the bigger pistols rather than the other way round. S&W, of course, always intended it to be for modified 9mm pistols and that single thing might be why its investment was agreed to by S&W and Winchester. In my .40S&W Extra it might never have seen the light of day, but it is a shame that the didn't do it properly. Even as it is, I think it is a better compromise than the 9mm.

.....
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Yeah, it slipped out all right! What? Cambridge or Eaton.
Nothing so special or grand unfortunately. What wonders the world might have seen had it been so! My schooling was very mixed for various reasons. University was a great basis, but writing has just been a matter of continuing effort and self criticism.


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Humbling, isnít it! This is the reason, ĎWhyí I continue to hang around internet gun forums, too.
On occasion it is humbling. "How could I have been so STUPID!" On the other hand I have cultivated a mindset that regards discovering my errors as a beneficial gain in my knowledge. Then it can be a pleasure to find I have been wrong but am now less likely to be so - but not always!

I am blessed or cursed with an excess of curiosity and a tendency to notice ideas, including my own, that don't make enough sense. So these moments are not rare. I am continually delighted and amazed at how much can be disovered just by thinking in a constructive way from implication to implication. Some things are so just because they can't be any other way.

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Old 11-01-2012, 12:42   #87
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To me that versatility means nothing. I choose what I consider the best weight/velocity for a self-defense round and I practice with something that matches that as closely as possible. I'm not constantly switching around between weight and velocity extremes.
Perhaps it doesn't matter to you, but if I can make the most of my gun then why not? I carry quality factory JHP's for self defense and to me, that's plenty for "social" work. I practice with normal loads as well, but if I want more I've got it. Should I happen to want something softer, I've got that too and to me, that's a good thing to have.

If I had to choose one pistol cartridge it would be the .40. I like the .45 (ACP and Super), I don't dislike the 9mm and have no use for the 10mm, so I sold it. Such broad versatility means I can have all bases covered without having to own one pistol for this, one for that, etc.
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Old 11-01-2012, 13:51   #88
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Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
Perhaps it doesn't matter to you, but if I can make the most of my gun then why not? I carry quality factory JHP's for self defense and to me, that's plenty for "social" work. I practice with normal loads as well, but if I want more I've got it. Should I happen to want something softer, I've got that too and to me, that's a good thing to have.

If I had to choose one pistol cartridge it would be the .40. I like the .45 (ACP and Super), I don't dislike the 9mm and have no use for the 10mm, so I sold it. Such broad versatility means I can have all bases covered without having to own one pistol for this, one for that, etc.
Good thinking, brother.
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Old 11-01-2012, 13:58   #89
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>James Yeager
yeah, no.
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Old 11-01-2012, 15:24   #90
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He probably would have saved himself a lot of criticism if he would have explained that most people can shoot a 9mm better than they can shoot a .40 Example; you may be able to out shoot me with your .40 while I'm using my 9 but you can not shoot a .40 better than you can shoot a 9mm. But if you like the larger caliber and don't feel the faster splits make any difference then shoot what you like! Caliber wars are stupid IMO. Calibers play such a small part in SD. There are too many variables to ever quantify one caliber over the other. I have seen a lot of people shot with a lot of different loads. Shot placement is key and multiple shots on target trumps larger calibers IMHO. If you have the cash to practice enough with a .40 to be as efficient as I am with my 9mm then my hats off to you!
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Old 11-01-2012, 16:13   #91
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He probably would have saved himself a lot of criticism if he would have explained that most people can shoot a 9mm better than they can shoot a .40 Example; you may be able to out shoot me with your .40 while I'm using my 9 but you can not shoot a .40 better than you can shoot a 9mm. But if you like the larger caliber and don't feel the faster splits make any difference then shoot what you like! Caliber wars are stupid IMO. Calibers play such a small part in SD. There are too many variables to ever quantify one caliber over the other. I have seen a lot of people shot with a lot of different loads. Shot placement is key and multiple shots on target trumps larger calibers IMHO. If you have the cash to practice enough with a .40 to be as efficient as I am with my 9mm then my hats off to you!

I think that you are correct about the .40 being harder to shoot than a 9mm. I am about to buy a G22 after 23 years of carrying/shooting a G17.
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Old 11-01-2012, 16:22   #92
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
I think that you are correct about the .40 being harder to shoot than a 9mm. I am about to buy a G22 after 23 years of carrying/shooting a G17.
Wow! You certainly are no stranger to the G17! Hopefully you'll get another 23 years out of your G23.
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Old 11-01-2012, 19:01   #93
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I think he just sucks at shooting the 40. I love my 40, and yes it takes a little more practice to get used to v.s a 9mm or 45 in a compact package, but I think it's well worth it. For the record I pretty much like em all though.
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Old 11-01-2012, 19:05   #94
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Originally Posted by JW1178 View Post
Does the go tee and tattoos make him somehow an expert? What's his GT handle?


The tats are ghey but that is not a 'go tee' but rather a Vandyke.

Do continue as I have think the .40 is a great round.
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Old 11-01-2012, 19:16   #95
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Originally Posted by Henry's Dad View Post
I love how he makes a small *****/compensation joke about guys who shoot .40s.

And yet...

Shaved head (check)
Goatee (check)
Tat sleeve (check)
Overly tight t-shirt (check)

So, what's this guy compensating for?


I wonder what kind of vehicle he drives. I could imagine him hopping out of a jacked up pickup truck with stacks cut out of the bed, wearing a Tapout shirt and white framed sunglasses.... that would top it off!!!
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Old 11-01-2012, 19:26   #96
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James Yeager well hes a looser to start, he lost on one man army show didnt even come in second, second off he states that he lost 3 budys in iraq in an ambush, usually the ones who live were hiding while the ones fighting die mmm makes ya think about this guy, i think hes full of **** if you cant hold a 40 and shoot it then you dont need to be messing with weapons, ive got one (a 40)its what my 120lb wife shoots, hes just another ass clown that wants to spout off, let him have his fun but that was 6min and 32sec of my life ill never get back
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Old 11-01-2012, 21:20   #97
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Originally Posted by JW1178 View Post


I wonder what kind of vehicle he drives. I could imagine him hopping out of a jacked up pickup truck with stacks cut out of the bed, wearing a Tapout shirt and white framed sunglasses.... that would top it off!!!
Either that, or his wife makes him drive a minivan.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:04   #98
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Ugh, really? This crapola again?

I'm convinced that many of these "tactical firearms instructors" all repeat the same mantra about using 9mm and "shot placement" to sell classes.

They get students brainwashed to believe that all they need are a G19, and cheap 9mm ammo and several classes to defend themselves, and to not worry about ballistics or "magic bullets".

Well, I don't believe in "magic bullets", but as long as I can shoot it proficiently, I want the most powerful round I can have in a package that's reliable, concealable, and controllable.

Do I believe in, and more importantly count on "1 shot stops"? NO. But, there may be times where 1 shot is all you get before your adversary is on top of you, and your pistol now won't go back into battery, and it's now a grappling match; where it's either go hands on, go to a blade, or try to re-rack slide. I'd really prefer that if all I get is 1 round in the guy, I want it to do as much damage as possible, making the rest of the encounter more favorable to me.

How anyone can say that there is "no difference" in being hit with a heavier, faster moving projectile given the same materials and construction, is beyond reason.

Forget about shot placement for a minute- you have a choice- a high school all city pitcher throwing an 8 ounce baseball at your head, or Nolan Ryan throwing a 10 ounce baseball at your head?

I really think the whole ".40 uncontrollable recoil impulse" is repeated by people who either don't shoot much, or who have girly, delicate wrists and hands, or both.

I went shooting last week, and took my dad, who hasn't shot in quite some time. I brought my gen 2 G19, and my gen 3 G23. We shot 115 gr 9mm FMJ, and 180 gr TMJ .40(like FMJ, but with a truncated flat nose)

While I'll admit the .40 definitely has more recoil, it is not all that difficult to keep a 4-5 inch group at 20 yards or so rapid fire.

I basically did a back to back comparison with my 19 & 23 doing mag dumps into identical targets at identical distances, and the groups were almost identical. (with the exception of bigger holes with the .40)

My dad had a little harder time with the .40, but he still had decent groups. Since he's not used to shooting, the 9mm was more "pleasant" to shoot. And I'll admit, the 9mm is very mild, and easy on the hands, wrists, arms, etc.

I don't consider myself a .40 "fanboy". I really don't care. I use what works. If I can shoot it proficiently, I use it. If it makes a bigger, deeper hole, and hits harder, how can that be bad?

There is only a 2 round difference in capacity between the 19 & 23. So that is a non-issue. If the 14 rounds of .40 didn't solve my problem, then it's time to reload. However, the odds of that happening are literally less than winning the lottery.

Would I feel naked, and undergunned with a 9mm? No. It's fine. It has nothing to do with ***** size, or ego, or any other crap that is spouted by the same guys all the time. And please, spare me the "9mm is cheaper, so I can train more", garbage too. I buy ammo in lots of a thousand. It's about $20 more for .40. I guess I'm lucky enough to be one of the "1%" so I can afford the extra 20 bucks.

The guys who say this crap are buying 50 round boxes at walmart when their wife will let them. Sorry, but if you're buying 50 round boxes, you're plinking, not training. If 20 bucks difference is keeping you from "training", then you have bigger problems in your life.

These arguments are lame. Just shoot what you like- preferably, the most powerful round you can control, that offers a reasonable capacity, and can conceal if necessary. PERIOD.

P.S. I purchased a Lone Wolf .357 Sig bbl for my G23, and wanted to try it out, but unfortunately, the range was out of .357 sig ammo! I just got the darn bbl in the mail, and like a dummy, figured they'd have some.
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:43   #99
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""But, English, a scaled up G-17 is what everyone has always said the G-22 actually is! The G-22 is really nothing more than a trial and error modified G-17 - Which is exactly how I think Gaston and the boys actually built the thing. (Compliments of the ingenuous gun-buying American public.)""
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The slides were heavier from day one. The barrel and chamber were both made very close to the same thickness as the 9mm (by way of larger breechface [duh] and larger O.D. barrel) which is same pressure. Other than 20# recoil spring which many of us 40 and 357auto shooters did, what else is there? Make it fat like a 10mm/45? Only reason I don't carry 10mm everyday personally.
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:48   #100
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Your correct. In .40, I primarily carry the 165 Gold Dot. I also really like my test results with the Ranger T-Series in the same weight.

The 200 +P in .45 is a bit snappy out of the poly guns. In a all metal frame gun such as a 1911 or a Sig 220, it's not as bad.

In .45 I usually carry the 230 Grain Gold Dot but lately I've been carrying the Ranger T-Series 230 grain JHP (RA45T) standard pressure load. (I got a good deal on a thousand rounds of RA45T so I couldn't pass it up. Besides, my supply of 230 Gold Dot is drying up.)

I'm very strongly considering the HST 230+P though. (I'm actually considering +P ammo. I never thought I'd see the day I'd do that! LOL!)

It's the only +P load I've tested so far that doesn't feel like +P but still delivers on the velocity!

I'm normally not a big fan of +P ammo in any caliber since it's usually a good bit more snappy than the standard pressure stuff. This HST load is the one exception so far. I don't know how they did it but it delivers on the velocity and shoots like standard pressure ammo!

It has more muzzle blast but I don't notice a change in recoil or point of impact from the standard pressure Ranger ammo, standard 230 ball, or the 230 Gold Dot.
I use +p+ for my G17 ccw load. I don't notice a big change in recoil.
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