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Old 10-30-2012, 22:47   #61
NEOH212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaech View Post
No

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
It sounds like somebody has a case of butt hurt....



Awwww, too bad.....



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Old 10-31-2012, 00:24   #62
Clutch Cargo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
He's going to the paintball ranch tomorrow and afterwords he's going home to his mothers basement to play World of Warcraft.

(After he rubs his mothers feet that is.)

Mr. Yeager's credentials speak for themselves:

• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Less Lethal Munitions #00040S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Firearms #00041S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Chemical Weapons #00042S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Expandable Baton #00043S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified Police Officer and K-9 handler #97276 - inactive
* Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
* F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
* TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
* FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed” courses
* A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
* Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
* Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
* Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
* Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
* Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
* NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
* NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
* Glock Certified Armorer
* Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
* Knife Defense Instructor
* Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
* Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
* S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
* Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
* Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
* Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
* Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
* Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
* Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
* Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
* S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
* D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
* Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
* Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
* Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
* John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
* Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
* SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
* 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
* Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
* 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
* 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
* 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
* 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
* Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
* Pat Rogers 3-Day Carbine Operator Course
* Caliber Press - Street Survival 2 days
* Glock 2.5 day Instructor Workshop
* NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor
* Rogers Shooting School - Pistol / Intermediate
* Rogers Shooting School - Rifle / Advanced
* Surefire Tactical Technology Specialist Course
* Larry Vickers' AK Operator Course
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Last edited by Clutch Cargo; 10-31-2012 at 00:27..
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Old 10-31-2012, 01:14   #63
NEOH212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Mr. Yeager's credentials speak for themselves:

• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Less Lethal Munitions #00040S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Firearms #00041S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Chemical Weapons #00042S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Expandable Baton #00043S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified Police Officer and K-9 handler #97276 - inactive
* Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
* F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
* TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
* FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed” courses
* A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
* Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
* Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
* Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
* Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
* Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
* NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
* NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
* Glock Certified Armorer
* Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
* Knife Defense Instructor
* Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
* Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
* S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
* Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
* Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
* Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
* Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
* Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
* Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
* Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
* S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
* D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
* Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
* Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
* Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
* John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
* Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
* SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
* 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
* Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
* 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
* 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
* 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
* 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
* Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
* Pat Rogers 3-Day Carbine Operator Course
* Caliber Press - Street Survival 2 days
* Glock 2.5 day Instructor Workshop
* NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor
* Rogers Shooting School - Pistol / Intermediate
* Rogers Shooting School - Rifle / Advanced
* Surefire Tactical Technology Specialist Course
* Larry Vickers' AK Operator Course

And all that being the case I'd expect him to be smarter than his idiotic comments in the video. Credentials for the most part mean nothing more than you've satisfied someones criteria. Or if you will, they give you a certificate stating you agree with their school of thought.

Bearing that in mind, credentials don't always mean that person is a expert or is 100% correct. Especially when they have been proven otherwise over the course of many years on a given topic. IE- The .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .45 Gap.

Just because the .40 doesn't work for him doesn't mean it's not effective or that people can't shoot it effectively. Should I bother to mention the fantastic track record that the .40 has earned over the course of many years?

You tell me.

Dispute that! (Go ahead, argue with facts.)




I've read a lot about him. I respect him and a lot of his viewpoints. However, I'm at odds with him on this one and I can't believe someone with his experience and expertise would make such a ridiculous statement. Especially when considering there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.


As they say, Opinions are like arse openings. Everybody has one and is convinced theirs is the only one that doesn't stink.


After watching the video, I've come to the conclusion that Mr. Yeager has consumed too much Jager.

To each their own but remember, just because someone doesn't want to believe it doesn't make the truth any less true.

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Last edited by NEOH212; 11-01-2012 at 01:35..
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Old 10-31-2012, 01:42   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
That's what I love about the .40. I can load it light if I want to, or can load it normal or even hot and have everything covered. I can shoot a 135gr plated at 950 fps or a JHP at 1600 fps. A 165gr bullet at 850 fps or 1400 fps. A 200gr bullet at 800 fps or 1200 fps. A 180gr bullet at 850 fps or 1300 fps. All the while I have great capacity, brass is practically free, and can have it in a 9mm sized handgun. When the 9mm or .45 (acp) can give me that kind of versatility, let me know.
A 200gr bullet at 1200fps in a 40? I dont think I have seen a SAAMI spec'd load that does that. Granted, I am not a 40 guy, but that seems to be more along the line of 10mm.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:03   #65
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If you love the .40 caliber then you will take offense to the video. Personally, I could not care any less.

In reality, if you shoot the 40 caliber well, you will probably be faster shooting the 9mm. If you feel that the 40 is vastly superior to make up for the speed, then so be it. If you think modern 9mm hollowpoints bridge the gap, then you will be happy with the 9mm.

I like the 45 for my own reasons!
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:54   #66
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Credentials, experience, talent, whatever... people can still have strange and inexplicably silly opinions on matters. Rob Leatham uses FMJs for home defense.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:02   #67
cowboy1964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
So many of the 9mm fanboys tout the +P+ ammo and say it's equal to the .45 now. Ok, now I get to tout the Winchester Ranger T-Series 230 +P or the Federal HST 230 +P.

Take a hard look at the test data and tell me that the 9mm outperforms either of those loads. I think not. There is no way in hell.
I've shot .45 200+P Gold Dot and it was HARSH. I don't even want to mess with 230+P.

I know you carry 165gr Gold Dots in .40. I forget what you use in .45.... 230gr Gold Dot?
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:14   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
English, great post, and very informative!

That's one of the main reasons I started this thread and put this video up.

So in a sense, if the platform was build FOR the .40, sort of like a 4th gen glock in .40 caliber, it should be as durable as a 9mm glock, since the recoil spring was now built around the .40, correct? Given the pressure in the barrel doesn't matter as much as slide momentum, right?
First, thank you! Second, not quite.

The 4th gen Glock is still a .40S&W conversion built on what is essentially a pistol designed for the 9mm. It has the same frames as the 9mm range and the slides are virtually the same weight as the 9mm range. As a result the slide velocity has to be greater in approximate proportion to the difference in bullet momentum. This produces two potential problems. The first is that the pistol has substantially more felt recoil thn the 9mm. Tolerance for felt recoil varies from person to person but for any individual at any point in their development there is some threshold over which a small increase changes the perception from OK to not OK at all. This is why so many people posting say it is not a problem and so many others complain about its unacceptable snappiness.

The second problem is whether it wears out the pistol faster than the 9mm. The Glock is a relatively special case here because the slide is brought to a final stop by the inner front of the slide round the recoil spring impacting a step in the frame. Because the polymer used for the frame is tough and resilient it seems able to endure this more or less indefinitely without damage. The other impact is that of the barrel impacting the steel locking block. That is supported by the polymer frame which has a little give, but if the locking block did wear enough to start to cause a problem it is cheap and easy to replace. What the video did not address was whether this potential for accelerated wear, which he claims to have experienced, affects Glocks as much as steel and aluminium framed pistols where metal to metal impact is a real problem. I don't know the answer to that but police armorers who have large scale experience of both should be in a better position to know the answer than someone who runs a training school.

If we come back to felt recoil, the Glock has another advantage relative to hammer fired pistols in particular but also to the S&W and the XD. The Glock has a much lower barrel axis and so the muzzle flip effect relative to total recoil is much reduced. Even with its lower weight the Glock can feel as though it less recoil than a SG Sauer for instance.

I don't have a .40S&W Glock but I do have a 19, a 20 and a 33. The 357SIG of the 33 is much the same recoil as the .40S&W in the 27 and I don't find it a problem now that I have modified the shape of the trigger guard. The split times of the 19 with 9mm and the 20 with 10mm are very close and if I were in a gunfight I would much sooner have the 20 than the 19 for the extra KE per shot at very little time penalty between shots. I would like a G32 so that I could compare its split times to the 19, but I have to many pistols already.

I also have a Steyr M1-40A and that is about 4 oz heavier than the G19 or G23 with a barrel axis as low or a little lower than the Glock. That is very nice to shoot but it was designed for the .40S&W in the first place and it has a superb grip design. How much of its "niceness" is due to the extra weight and how much to the grip shape, I don't know.

If you are seriously considering buying a .40S&W Glock I don't think you should be put off by Yeager's opinion but I would advise caution if you are new to handguns. Recoil is something you have to get used to in stages and starting off with the recoil of a .40S&W Glock is likely to cause you lasting problems. If you really want one, get a 9mm conversion barrel and one or two 9mm magazines at the same time. Then you can work up in stages and do much of you practice shooting with cheaper and easier to shoot 9mm.

English
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:49   #69
SCmasterblaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Mr. Yeager's credentials speak for themselves:

• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Less Lethal Munitions #00040S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Firearms #00041S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Chemical Weapons #00042S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Expandable Baton #00043S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified Police Officer and K-9 handler #97276 - inactive
* Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
* F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
* TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
* FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed” courses
* A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
* Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
* Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
* Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
* Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
* Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
* NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
* NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
* Glock Certified Armorer
* Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
* Knife Defense Instructor
* Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
* Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
* S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
* Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
* Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
* Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
* Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
* Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
* Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
* Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
* S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
* D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
* Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
* Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
* Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
* John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
* Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
* SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
* 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
* Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
* 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
* 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
* 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
* 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
* Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
* Pat Rogers 3-Day Carbine Operator Course
* Caliber Press - Street Survival 2 days
* Glock 2.5 day Instructor Workshop
* NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor
* Rogers Shooting School - Pistol / Intermediate
* Rogers Shooting School - Rifle / Advanced
* Surefire Tactical Technology Specialist Course
* Larry Vickers' AK Operator Course
His CV must be a real pain to write!
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:06   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
But, English, a scaled up G-17 is what everyone has always said the G-22 actually is! The G-22 is really nothing more than a trial and error modified G-17 - Which is exactly how I think Gaston and the boys actually built the thing. (Compliments of the ingenuous gun-buying American public.)
I have no disagrement wth that apart from the fact that it is only the bore and the lips of the magazine that were scaled up! After a while they also put another pin in the locking block. All I was saying was that the resulting lightness has carry benefits at the cost of shooting benefits. To some that is worth while. If only they had increased the slide weight to about half way between the 9mm and the .45, there would be far fewer complaints about the snappiness of the .40.
Quote:

Maybe so, but all I care about is how well, or not, a caliber (or chambering) handles and shoots. For whatever reasons it's just plain easier to, 'run and gun' with either a 9 x 19mm, or a 45 ACP pistol. This is the plain 'n pragmatic everyday truth of the matter!
Same answer as above. Do you ever use a pocket pistol? It is a compromise of everyday convenience over slight ease of shooting. That is mainly in practice and there is only a small chance of needing to actually fight when the extra KE might well compensate for the slight increase of split time. In a fight I am sure you would not be noticing the extra recoil and doubt the accuracy would be much different.
Quote:

(I'm not even going to get into any of my personal concerns about Glock 9mm or 45 ACP pistols being a lot safer to use than several of the other Glock caliber/chamberings.)
Ah yes! afascinating subject but not for now.
Quote:

NOT kidding! I absolutely love reading this paragraph. It looks like HerrGlock isn't the only one around here who has his own unique, 'way with words'. Outstanding! (But, what the Hell, are you doing on Glock Talk?)
Thank you. I try to keep it under control but sometimes it slips out.
Quote:

I've, now, read so many different versions of this story that I no longer know what to believe?
I think my version is correct but I have lost the source. It is easy to find out that the 10mm was always 10mm Lite and the weight of the S&W was about 3oz heavier than a 1911 hence relatively mild recoil.
Quote:

Well, in all honesty, this is where I (and I suspect a great many other gunmen) get a lot of my gun information from too.
Yes, but some of us apply the test of reason and argument to what we find on the internet. (I include you in this group.) I have learned a lot that I did not know before by this process as it has made me re-think previously unexamined opinions.
Quote:

In all fairness to Mr. Yeager, I've often heard or seen Gabe Suarez say almost exactly the same thing. I, also, think that the term, 'pressure' needs to be clarified. I wouldn't choose a 40 over a 9 or a 45 on the basis of, 'pressure' too. The question becomes, 'What kind of pressure are we actually talking about here?'
Yes, Gabe Suarez used to be a .40S&W advocate and then became a 9mm advocate. I think, but don't know, that he has been against the .45ACP for a long time - he certainly is now. I disagree with him about the 9mm but agree with him about lots of other ideas about pistol craft. I think Suarez has put a lot of quite original thinking into his ideas and testing them as far as is practical. Without knowing enough about Yeager, I don't think he is that kind of individual, but I don't doubt the shooting ability of either of them.

I think Yeager is just talking about simple psi of the gas inside the barrel.
Quote:

YOU DEFINITELY CAUGHT HIM!



One of the first people I ever ran into on internet gun forums is James Yeager. (I was an early member of, 'Lightfighter.com'.) The man was a gentleman; and he proved to me that he, at least, understands pistolcraft. I've, also, watched several videos of Yeager running a pistol course. Fact is the man can shoot! Is he a hero? Is he a coward? I don't know. A more important question might be, 'Can he teach what he knows about pistolcraft to others?'

I've watched that, 'Route Irish' ambush video several different times. What I see is a man who clearly got himself, 'off the X' in time; and, unlike his comrades, did not promptly return to it. Truth be told, what Yeager did that day is no different than what thousands and thousands of other combat troops have, also, done in many another war. I mean, heck, Napoleon Bonaparte, himself, did nearly the exact same thing when he ordered the bridge at Leipzig to be prematurely destroyed before a large portion of his badly beaten and retreating army was able to escape across it.

I guess things can look a lot different when you're the one who's, 'on the X'. Then again, if I had a friend who abandoned me to fight my own way off a road or out of a building, assuming I survived, that friend and I would be through - Forever!

Personally, I'm not going to, 'Monday morning quarterback' what Yeager did that day. He didn't do it to me; and, were I there, I might have, in fact, chosen to do the same thing, myself. So the only question to be answered is a purely subjective one, 'Do I trust this man to, 'guard my six' when it counts?'

My, 'gut opinion'? ....... No.
I don't have an opinion about this aspect of Yeager's character as I don't know enough of the facts. I don't know where he ran to or what he did when he got there. If he was laying down effective covering fire from a relatively protected position, that could well have been more use than returning to the vehicle and getting shot on the way. If he was just crouching in a ditch it would be a different matter.

English
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:35   #71
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Irregardless, my next handgun will be a G22. I have bullets, brass, dies, primers, and powder ready to go.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:38   #72
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Irregardless
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:06   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Credentials, experience, talent, whatever... people can still have strange and inexplicably silly opinions on matters. Rob Leatham uses FMJs for home defense.
If i were a bad guy, I don't think I would want Leatham shooting at me regardless of what ammo he's using lol
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:28   #74
OctoberRust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
First, thank you! Second, not quite.

The 4th gen Glock is still a .40S&W conversion built on what is essentially a pistol designed for the 9mm. It has the same frames as the 9mm range and the slides are virtually the same weight as the 9mm range. As a result the slide velocity has to be greater in approximate proportion to the difference in bullet momentum. This produces two potential problems. The first is that the pistol has substantially more felt recoil thn the 9mm. Tolerance for felt recoil varies from person to person but for any individual at any point in their development there is some threshold over which a small increase changes the perception from OK to not OK at all. This is why so many people posting say it is not a problem and so many others complain about its unacceptable snappiness.

The second problem is whether it wears out the pistol faster than the 9mm. The Glock is a relatively special case here because the slide is brought to a final stop by the inner front of the slide round the recoil spring impacting a step in the frame. Because the polymer used for the frame is tough and resilient it seems able to endure this more or less indefinitely without damage. The other impact is that of the barrel impacting the steel locking block. That is supported by the polymer frame which has a little give, but if the locking block did wear enough to start to cause a problem it is cheap and easy to replace. What the video did not address was whether this potential for accelerated wear, which he claims to have experienced, affects Glocks as much as steel and aluminium framed pistols where metal to metal impact is a real problem. I don't know the answer to that but police armorers who have large scale experience of both should be in a better position to know the answer than someone who runs a training school.

If we come back to felt recoil, the Glock has another advantage relative to hammer fired pistols in particular but also to the S&W and the XD. The Glock has a much lower barrel axis and so the muzzle flip effect relative to total recoil is much reduced. Even with its lower weight the Glock can feel as though it less recoil than a SG Sauer for instance.

I don't have a .40S&W Glock but I do have a 19, a 20 and a 33. The 357SIG of the 33 is much the same recoil as the .40S&W in the 27 and I don't find it a problem now that I have modified the shape of the trigger guard. The split times of the 19 with 9mm and the 20 with 10mm are very close and if I were in a gunfight I would much sooner have the 20 than the 19 for the extra KE per shot at very little time penalty between shots. I would like a G32 so that I could compare its split times to the 19, but I have to many pistols already.

I also have a Steyr M1-40A and that is about 4 oz heavier than the G19 or G23 with a barrel axis as low or a little lower than the Glock. That is very nice to shoot but it was designed for the .40S&W in the first place and it has a superb grip design. How much of its "niceness" is due to the extra weight and how much to the grip shape, I don't know.

If you are seriously considering buying a .40S&W Glock I don't think you should be put off by Yeager's opinion but I would advise caution if you are new to handguns. Recoil is something you have to get used to in stages and starting off with the recoil of a .40S&W Glock is likely to cause you lasting problems. If you really want one, get a 9mm conversion barrel and one or two 9mm magazines at the same time. Then you can work up in stages and do much of you practice shooting with cheaper and easier to shoot 9mm.

English

Interesting, makes sense.

and no, I'm not considering buying a glock in .40. I have owned them in the past, but prefer the glock 19, I personally shoot 9mm better/faster, even in +P+ loads it seems.
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:38   #75
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Assuming everything Mr. Yeager said is correct, specifically which parts wear out due to the .40 round?

Had Mr. Yeager said "I find the .40 round difficult for me to shoot", then I don't think there would be an issue. But he instead insinuated that no matter the gun and no matter the shooter, the .40 round is difficult to shoot. And that's misinforming pure and simple.

That said, both of my Glocks are .40, although I appreciate most calibers. And I've never had an issue shooting any .40 pistol. My G24 has less muzzle rise than most 9mm's. I'm glad he doesn't like it. More for me.
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Old 10-31-2012, 13:04   #76
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Maybe the extractor?

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Originally Posted by PVolk View Post
Assuming everything Mr. Yeager said is correct, specifically which parts wear out due to the .40 round?

Had Mr. Yeager said "I find the .40 round difficult for me to shoot", then I don't think there would be an issue. But he instead insinuated that no matter the gun and no matter the shooter, the .40 round is difficult to shoot. And that's misinforming pure and simple.

That said, both of my Glocks are .40, although I appreciate most calibers. And I've never had an issue shooting any .40 pistol. My G24 has less muzzle rise than most 9mm's. I'm glad he doesn't like it. More for me.
Or the recoil spring assembly?
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Old 10-31-2012, 13:25   #77
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That's part of the reason I asked. I was wondering if he was referring to $12 parts when talking about premature wear and longevity. Replacing cheap parts after 50k rounds wouldn't at all concern me. Unless he's talking about frames or something...
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Old 10-31-2012, 15:01   #78
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That's part of the reason I asked. I was wondering if he was referring to $12 parts when talking about premature wear and longevity. Replacing cheap parts after 50k rounds wouldn't at all concern me. Unless he's talking about frames or something...
Cheap ammo at $15 x 50 rounds = $300 per 1000 rounds
50,000 rounds = $15,000.00

I'll buy a new $600 pistol if it makes it even close to 50 thousand rounds.
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Old 10-31-2012, 15:23   #79
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I agree. If I put 50k rounds through a pistol, I'd say I got my money's worth out of it. My point is that I've never even heard of anyone wearing out a pistol by shooting it too much. Let alone specifically due to .40 s&w. Not to say that is hasn't happened or isn't impossible, but I'd be curious to know what "worn out and/or broken" specifically entails - especially with .40.

James leads veiwers to believe .40 is uncontrollable and will be a paper weight in no time flat if you shoot it often. Pretty rediculous in my opinion...

Last edited by PVolk; 11-01-2012 at 14:17.. Reason: typos
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Old 10-31-2012, 15:57   #80
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……… If only they had increased the slide weight to about half way between the 9mm and the .45, there would be far fewer complaints about the snappiness of the .40.
You might, very well, have a point; however, I’m still concerned about the 40’s exceedingly high initial pressure spike. I don’t like it; and it causes me to mistrust any polymer frame pistol the 40 is used in. (Let’s not forget the first 40’s and 10’s were metal frame pistols.)

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Same answer as above. Do you ever use a pocket pistol? It is a compromise of everyday convenience over slight ease of shooting. That is mainly in practice and there is only a small chance of needing to actually fight when the extra KE might well compensate for the slight increase of split time. In a fight I am sure you would not be noticing the extra recoil and doubt the accuracy would be much different.
Of course I use a pocket pistol. I just came in from outside. I went out to walk our Bulldog while I was wearing a pair of unbelted sweat pants. My pocket pistol was in my right front pocket the entire time we were out. Same thing when I go to get the mail from the box at the end of the driveway.

You’ve reminded me that I drove my shooting buddies, ‘crazy’ for more than 2 years while I tried to make up my mind about which pocket pistol I should carry. In fact you just stated the reasons, ‘Why’ it took me so long to finally make up my mind!

I needed the least amount of compromise and the highest degree of transition I could find for my own pocket pistol. I finally decided upon a Beretta Model 3032, ‘Tom Cat’ pistol (Actually an, ‘Alley Cat’) with an XS Systems, ‘golf ball’ front sight. What’s it do for me? The extra wide backstrap allows me to transition down to a much smaller pistol with no sensation of downsizing, and very little loss of accuracy. I keep it loaded with very hot, Hornady, ‘XTP’ bullets.

In a pistol gunfight I definitely do not notice recoil. I’ve trained with recoil all of my life. To me RECOIL IS A TOOL which I use to drive the pistol - Any pistol I happen to be holding.

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Thank you. I try to keep it under control but sometimes it slips out.
Yeah, it slipped out all right! What? Cambridge or Eaton.

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………. Yes, but some of us apply the test of reason and argument to what we find on the internet. (I include you in this group.) I have learned a lot that I did not know before by this process as it has made me re-think previously unexamined opinions.
Humbling, isn’t it! This is the reason, ‘Why’ I continue to hang around internet gun forums, too.

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Yes, Gabe Suarez used to be a .40S&W advocate and then became a 9mm advocate. I think, but don't know, that he has been against the .45ACP for a long time - he certainly is now. I disagree with him about the 9mm but agree with him about lots of other ideas about pistol craft. I think Suarez has put a lot of quite original thinking into his ideas and testing them as far as is practical. Without knowing enough about Yeager, I don't think he is that kind of individual, but I don't doubt the shooting ability of either of them.
Yeah. I’d say, ‘a long time’ too. I don’t, however, think Suarez is wrong; I know he is. (I regularly watch beef cattle getting executed by gunfire for market. I know, firsthand, what pistol and rifle bullets can and cannot do, as well as how long it takes in order to get the job done.) Let’s just say that comparatively easy to knock over deer, beef cattle ain’t! Putting large beef cattle down is a damned gruesome business.

In my (admittedly limited) experience communicating with Suarez and Yeager, they are somewhat dissimilar individuals. Suarez is more of a thinker; and Yeager is better with a pistol. Both men are good talkers, used to public discourse, and can be engaging.

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I think Yeager is just talking about simple psi of the gas inside the barrel.
Probably, but, he appears to have the concept somewhat muddled. (That doesn’t mean he’s all wrong, though.)

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Originally Posted by English View Post
I don't have an opinion about this aspect of Yeager's character as I don't know enough of the facts. I don't know where he ran to or what he did when he got there. If he was laying down effective covering fire from a relatively protected position, that could well have been more use than returning to the vehicle and getting shot on the way. If he was just crouching in a ditch it would be a different matter.
While, at least, one of his vehicle’s occupants jumped out and engaged, Yeager jumped out and ran to a ditch on the opposite side of the road. He remained there out of sight, and out of the line of fire. Yeager did not use his weapon from this position. Prior to jumping out of the vehicle, Yeager had taken it out of drive and, for unknown reasons, set the parking brake.

Here, you can read the Edinburgh, ‘After-Action report’ for yourself -

http://www.defensereview.com/stories...sion%20AAR.doc

(The document is, ‘clean’.)

Last edited by Arc Angel; 11-01-2012 at 10:41..
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