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Old 10-30-2012, 17:06   #51
NDCent
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G27 is too small a frame for 40 cal.
40 cal won't shoot 50,000 rounds.
40 cal is harder to shoot.

So, what's his point?
I'm good with all his statements. Guess I can keep all mine.
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Old 10-30-2012, 17:16   #52
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<<<<<<<<<<< not impressed.....I am an instructor too, I teach S&W .38 spcl revolver and 9MM semi-autos......I carry a glock 27. I promise you, I can hang with him with my 27.
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Old 10-30-2012, 17:31   #53
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Very little of what he says is factual. Most of it already covered by prior posts.

Guys like this irritate me to no end. Thinks he knows everything but has no real qualifications. Training thousands of people a year does not qualify you for much of anything.

Most of what he says is his own opinion, that he states as factual! Guys like this tattooed clown make me sick.
I would like to kneecap him with a 40.
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Old 10-30-2012, 18:03   #54
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Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
Me too. I'm confident enough in my shooting that I'd be willing.

I don't care who he is. I'd welcome the chance to show him up and prove him wrong.

Anyone else in here willing to try?

^^ my God you really are the man in the picture

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Old 10-30-2012, 18:22   #55
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^^ my God you really are the man in the picture

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Doo!





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Old 10-30-2012, 18:35   #56
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^^ my God you really are the man in the picture

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Maybe read her sig line.
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Old 10-30-2012, 18:53   #57
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Maybe read her sig line.
No

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Old 10-30-2012, 20:38   #58
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Originally Posted by English View Post
Well, I recognised his training site as one of the big name ones but didn't know he was James Yeager. Now that I know that I am no more impressed. I only noticed one correct thing in his whole presentation, and that was that many .40S&W pistols were scaled up 9mms and that as such they were not heavy enough for the recoil of the round.

In passing he admitted that this was not true of the HK and other pistols designed specifically for the .40. Even that is only partly true in a pratical sense because the Glock, with its light weight, is easier to carry and for many that more than outweighs the extra felt recoil. Think of a Glock in .40S&W as sharing the characeristics of a pocket pistol. Power per ounce is a major criterion! 2 inch 357 Magnum snubies are not fun to shoot but people still carry them for good reason.
But, English, a scaled up G-17 is what everyone has always said the G-22 actually is! The G-22 is really nothing more than a trial and error modified G-17 - Which is exactly how I think Gaston and the boys actually built the thing. (Compliments of the ingenuous gun-buying American public.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
If the .40 is a high pressure round, so is the 9mm - they are very close. More important the pressure inside the barrel has very little effect on wear. Bullet momentum and slide velocity are the most significant parameters for wear rate and the bullet momentum of his favoured .45ACP is much higher than the 9mm but designers usually deal with it by having a heavier slide. A 9mm conversion barrel will not drive the slide fast enough in a G21 or 20 for instance. The bullet momentum of the .40S&W, as originally defined from the FBI tests which established the 10mm Lite, had a bullet momentum equal to the normal 230gn .45ACP.
Maybe so, but all I care about is how well, or not, a caliber (or chambering) handles and shoots. For whatever reasons it's just plain easier to, 'run and gun' with either a 9 x 19mm, or a 45 ACP pistol. This is the plain 'n pragmatic everyday truth of the matter!

(I'm not even going to get into any of my personal concerns about Glock 9mm or 45 ACP pistols being a lot safer to use than several of the other Glock caliber/chamberings.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
That segues into the FBI and the ontogenesis of the .40S&W. When the FBI set up the test protocol for their post Miami Shootout pistol selection they specified that no round had to have more than the bullet momentum of the normal .45ACP. ab initio, they included the .38Sp for comparisson, since that was what had failed in Miami, the 9mm and the .45ACP. .......
NOT kidding! I absolutely love reading this paragraph. It looks like HerrGlock isn't the only one around here who has his own unique, 'way with words'. Outstanding! (But, what the Hell, are you doing on Glock Talk?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
This had several consequences. The first was that the FBI ordered a large quantity of 10mm loaded to the test specification. They never had full power 10mm rounds. The second was that they ordered a big batch of 10mm pistols from S&W. Those pistols were about 3 oz heavier than the 1911 Government model and so had slightly less felt recoil. All the so amusing stories about the recoil being too much for wimpy FBI Agents were just nonsense. The scrapping of the 10mm project and the escape from the S&W contract were all a matter of internal politics and a rather dirty story. It was a couple of years before S&W brought out the .40S&W and so it was not a matter of the FBI choosing it as a replacement for the 10mm.
I've, now, read so many different versions of this story that I no longer know what to believe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
So we have the famous, extremely self confident but ignorant James Yeager repeating the tales that he could pick up in any gun website, without wondering if they are true or false.
Well, in all honesty, this is where I (and I suspect a great many other gunmen) get a lot of my gun information from too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
Perhaps most importantly, he makes the unsupported claim that all the main cartridges are as effective as each other - 9mm, .40S&W, 357SIG, .45GAP and .45ACP - but that on the spurious basis of pressure one shoud choose either the 9mm or the .45ACP. That is, the two cartridges with the greatest divergence of characteristics - light and moderately fast versus heavy and distinctly slow!

To know that the five major self defence rounds are equal in their effects he would have had to shoot lots of people with the different rounds under controled circumstances. Neither he, nor anyone else, has done that. He is talking nonsense.
In all fairness to Mr. Yeager, I've often heard or seen Gabe Suarez say almost exactly the same thing. I, also, think that the term, 'pressure' needs to be clarified. I wouldn't choose a 40 over a 9 or a 45 on the basis of, 'pressure' too. The question becomes, 'What kind of pressure are we actually talking about here?'

Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
And then he makes the claim that he has trained 3000 people in the last month alone. That is 100 per day if he works a 30 day month. I wonder how much personal attention he gives them? Does he give them all some kind of survey to fill in of how long their various pistols last? If he does such a thing why does he not tell us the results rather than saying that he is a great trainer and so he just knows.
YOU DEFINITELY CAUGHT HIM!

Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
The simple truth is that James Yeager can probably teach people to shoot pistols with reasonable competence, but he has little or no understandig of the nature of knowledge, and its falsification or verification within some limits of confidence.
One of the first people I ever ran into on internet gun forums is James Yeager. (I was an early member of, 'Lightfighter.com'.) The man was a gentleman; and he proved to me that he, at least, understands pistolcraft. I've, also, watched several videos of Yeager running a pistol course. Fact is the man can shoot! Is he a hero? Is he a coward? I don't know. A more important question might be, 'Can he teach what he knows about pistolcraft to others?'

I've watched that, 'Route Irish' ambush video several different times. What I see is a man who clearly got himself, 'off the X' in time; and, unlike his comrades, did not promptly return to it. Truth be told, what Yeager did that day is no different than what thousands and thousands of other combat troops have, also, done in many another war. I mean, heck, Napoleon Bonaparte, himself, did nearly the exact same thing when he ordered the bridge at Leipzig to be prematurely destroyed before a large portion of his badly beaten and retreating army was able to escape across it.

I guess things can look a lot different when you're the one who's, 'on the X'. Then again, if I had a friend who abandoned me to fight my own way off a road or out of a building, assuming I survived, that friend and I would be through - Forever!

Personally, I'm not going to, 'Monday morning quarterback' what Yeager did that day. He didn't do it to me; and, were I there, I might have, in fact, chosen to do the same thing, myself. So the only question to be answered is a purely subjective one, 'Do I trust this man to, 'guard my six' when it counts?'

My, 'gut opinion'? ....... No.

Last edited by Arc Angel; 10-30-2012 at 20:45..
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Old 10-30-2012, 21:00   #59
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Yeager use to be on GT, I don't know if he still is. What he said about the .40 cal should make no difference to what caliber, pistol, rifle, shotgun, etc you choose to use.

If I could walk around with him or any other instructor strapped to my back and would fight my fights for me then I might listen to them. I am responsible for my family's ass and mine so I will use what I like.


He didn't say not to use it he just gave his reasons for not liking it but like I always said use what works for you.

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Old 10-30-2012, 22:36   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
Well, I recognised his training site as one of the big name ones but didn't know he was James Yeager. Now that I know that I am no more impressed. I only noticed one correct thing in his whole presentation, and that was that many .40S&W pistols were scaled up 9mms and that as such they were not heavy enough for the recoil of the round. In passing he admitted that this was not true of the HK and other pistols designed specifically for the .40. Even that is only partly true in a pratical sense because the Glock, with its light weight, is easier to carry and for many that more than outweighs the extra felt recoil. Think of a Glock in .40S&W as sharing the characeristics of a pocket pistol. Power per ounce is a major criterion! 2 inch 357 Magnum snubies are not fun to shoot but people still carry them for good reason.

The wear issue is unimportant and he misunderstands it. Even if the pistols wear out in, say, 35,000 rounds, the cost of replacing the pistol is small relative to the total cost of ammunition expended. Many people who carry a pistol 12 or more hours a day will think that a saving of 4 to 6 oz or so is a good trade off.

If the .40 is a high pressure round, so is the 9mm - they are very close. More important the pressure inside the barrel has very little effect on wear. Bullet momentum and slide velocity are the most significant parameters for wear rate and the bullet momentum of his favoured .45ACP is much higher than the 9mm but designers usually deal with it by having a heavier slide. A 9mm conversion barrel will not drive the slide fast enough in a G21 or 20 for instance. The bullet momentum of the .40S&W, as originally defined from the FBI tests which established the 10mm Lite, had a bullet momentum equal to the normal 230gn .45ACP.

That segues into the FBI and the ontogenesis of the .40S&W. When the FBI set up the test protocol for their post Miami Shootout pistol selection they specified that no round had to have more than the bullet momentum of the normal .45ACP. ab initio, they included the .38Sp for comparisson, since that was what had failed in Miami, the 9mm and the .45ACP. Only once the test team was set up did one of the team suggest the inclusion of the 10mm. The idea was agreed to, but, because of the recoil limit, he handloaded all the test rounds to equal the recoil of the .45ACP using a 180gn bullet. By a very small margin that light loading of the 10mm beat the .45ACP but the team said they would be hapy with either.

This had several consequences. The first was that the FBI ordered a large quantity of 10mm loaded to the test specification. They never had full power 10mm rounds. The second was that they ordered a big batch of 10mm pistols from S&W. Those pistols were about 3 oz heavier than the 1911 Government model and so had slightly less felt recoil. All the so amusing stories about the recoil being too much for wimpy FBI Agents were just nonsense. The scrapping of the 10mm project and the escape from the S&W contract were all a matter of internal politics and a rather dirty story. It was a couple of years before S&W brought out the .40S&W and so it was not a matter of the FBI choosing it as a replacement for the 10mm.

So we have the famous, extremely self confident but ignorant James Yeager repeating the tales that he could pick up in any gun website, without wondering if they are true or false.

Perhaps most importantly, he makes the unsupported claim that all the main cartridges are as effective as each other - 9mm, .40S&W, 357SIG, .45GAP and .45ACP - but that on the spurious basis of pressure one shoud choose either the 9mm or the .45ACP. That is, the two cartridges with the greatest divergence of characteristics - light and moderately fast versus heavy and distinctly slow! To know that the five major self defence rounds are equal in their effects he would have had to shoot lots of people with the different rounds under controled circumstances. Neither he, nor anyone else, has done that. He is talking nonsense.

And then he makes the claim that he has trained 3000 people in the last month alone. That is 100 per day if he works a 30 day month. I wonder how much personal attention he gives them? Does he give them all some kind of survey to fill in of how long their various pistols last? If he does such a thing why does he not tell us the results rather than saying that he is a great trainer and so he just knows.

The simple truth is that James Yeager can probably teach people to shoot pistols with reasonable competence, but he has little or no understandig of the nature of knowledge, and its falsification or verification within some limits of confidence.

English

English, great post, and very informative!

That's one of the main reasons I started this thread and put this video up.

So in a sense, if the platform was build FOR the .40, sort of like a 4th gen glock in .40 caliber, it should be as durable as a 9mm glock, since the recoil spring was now built around the .40, correct? Given the pressure in the barrel doesn't matter as much as slide momentum, right?
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Old 10-30-2012, 22:47   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaech View Post
No

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It sounds like somebody has a case of butt hurt....



Awwww, too bad.....



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Old 10-31-2012, 00:24   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
He's going to the paintball ranch tomorrow and afterwords he's going home to his mothers basement to play World of Warcraft.

(After he rubs his mothers feet that is.)

Mr. Yeager's credentials speak for themselves:

• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Less Lethal Munitions #00040S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Firearms #00041S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Chemical Weapons #00042S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Expandable Baton #00043S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified Police Officer and K-9 handler #97276 - inactive
* Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
* F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
* TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
* FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed” courses
* A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
* Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
* Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
* Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
* Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
* Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
* NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
* NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
* Glock Certified Armorer
* Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
* Knife Defense Instructor
* Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
* Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
* S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
* Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
* Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
* Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
* Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
* Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
* Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
* Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
* S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
* D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
* Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
* Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
* Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
* John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
* Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
* SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
* 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
* Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
* 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
* 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
* 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
* 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
* Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
* Pat Rogers 3-Day Carbine Operator Course
* Caliber Press - Street Survival 2 days
* Glock 2.5 day Instructor Workshop
* NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor
* Rogers Shooting School - Pistol / Intermediate
* Rogers Shooting School - Rifle / Advanced
* Surefire Tactical Technology Specialist Course
* Larry Vickers' AK Operator Course
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Old 10-31-2012, 01:14   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Mr. Yeager's credentials speak for themselves:

• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Less Lethal Munitions #00040S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Firearms #00041S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Chemical Weapons #00042S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Expandable Baton #00043S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified Police Officer and K-9 handler #97276 - inactive
* Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
* F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
* TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
* FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed” courses
* A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
* Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
* Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
* Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
* Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
* Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
* NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
* NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
* Glock Certified Armorer
* Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
* Knife Defense Instructor
* Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
* Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
* S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
* Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
* Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
* Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
* Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
* Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
* Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
* Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
* S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
* D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
* Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
* Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
* Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
* John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
* Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
* SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
* 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
* Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
* 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
* 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
* 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
* 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
* Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
* Pat Rogers 3-Day Carbine Operator Course
* Caliber Press - Street Survival 2 days
* Glock 2.5 day Instructor Workshop
* NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor
* Rogers Shooting School - Pistol / Intermediate
* Rogers Shooting School - Rifle / Advanced
* Surefire Tactical Technology Specialist Course
* Larry Vickers' AK Operator Course

And all that being the case I'd expect him to be smarter than his idiotic comments in the video. Credentials for the most part mean nothing more than you've satisfied someones criteria. Or if you will, they give you a certificate stating you agree with their school of thought.

Bearing that in mind, credentials don't always mean that person is a expert or is 100% correct. Especially when they have been proven otherwise over the course of many years on a given topic. IE- The .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .45 Gap.

Just because the .40 doesn't work for him doesn't mean it's not effective or that people can't shoot it effectively. Should I bother to mention the fantastic track record that the .40 has earned over the course of many years?

You tell me.

Dispute that! (Go ahead, argue with facts.)




I've read a lot about him. I respect him and a lot of his viewpoints. However, I'm at odds with him on this one and I can't believe someone with his experience and expertise would make such a ridiculous statement. Especially when considering there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.


As they say, Opinions are like arse openings. Everybody has one and is convinced theirs is the only one that doesn't stink.


After watching the video, I've come to the conclusion that Mr. Yeager has consumed too much Jager.

To each their own but remember, just because someone doesn't want to believe it doesn't make the truth any less true.

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Old 10-31-2012, 01:42   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
That's what I love about the .40. I can load it light if I want to, or can load it normal or even hot and have everything covered. I can shoot a 135gr plated at 950 fps or a JHP at 1600 fps. A 165gr bullet at 850 fps or 1400 fps. A 200gr bullet at 800 fps or 1200 fps. A 180gr bullet at 850 fps or 1300 fps. All the while I have great capacity, brass is practically free, and can have it in a 9mm sized handgun. When the 9mm or .45 (acp) can give me that kind of versatility, let me know.
A 200gr bullet at 1200fps in a 40? I dont think I have seen a SAAMI spec'd load that does that. Granted, I am not a 40 guy, but that seems to be more along the line of 10mm.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:03   #65
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If you love the .40 caliber then you will take offense to the video. Personally, I could not care any less.

In reality, if you shoot the 40 caliber well, you will probably be faster shooting the 9mm. If you feel that the 40 is vastly superior to make up for the speed, then so be it. If you think modern 9mm hollowpoints bridge the gap, then you will be happy with the 9mm.

I like the 45 for my own reasons!
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:54   #66
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Credentials, experience, talent, whatever... people can still have strange and inexplicably silly opinions on matters. Rob Leatham uses FMJs for home defense.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:02   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
So many of the 9mm fanboys tout the +P+ ammo and say it's equal to the .45 now. Ok, now I get to tout the Winchester Ranger T-Series 230 +P or the Federal HST 230 +P.

Take a hard look at the test data and tell me that the 9mm outperforms either of those loads. I think not. There is no way in hell.
I've shot .45 200+P Gold Dot and it was HARSH. I don't even want to mess with 230+P.

I know you carry 165gr Gold Dots in .40. I forget what you use in .45.... 230gr Gold Dot?
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:14   #68
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Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
English, great post, and very informative!

That's one of the main reasons I started this thread and put this video up.

So in a sense, if the platform was build FOR the .40, sort of like a 4th gen glock in .40 caliber, it should be as durable as a 9mm glock, since the recoil spring was now built around the .40, correct? Given the pressure in the barrel doesn't matter as much as slide momentum, right?
First, thank you! Second, not quite.

The 4th gen Glock is still a .40S&W conversion built on what is essentially a pistol designed for the 9mm. It has the same frames as the 9mm range and the slides are virtually the same weight as the 9mm range. As a result the slide velocity has to be greater in approximate proportion to the difference in bullet momentum. This produces two potential problems. The first is that the pistol has substantially more felt recoil thn the 9mm. Tolerance for felt recoil varies from person to person but for any individual at any point in their development there is some threshold over which a small increase changes the perception from OK to not OK at all. This is why so many people posting say it is not a problem and so many others complain about its unacceptable snappiness.

The second problem is whether it wears out the pistol faster than the 9mm. The Glock is a relatively special case here because the slide is brought to a final stop by the inner front of the slide round the recoil spring impacting a step in the frame. Because the polymer used for the frame is tough and resilient it seems able to endure this more or less indefinitely without damage. The other impact is that of the barrel impacting the steel locking block. That is supported by the polymer frame which has a little give, but if the locking block did wear enough to start to cause a problem it is cheap and easy to replace. What the video did not address was whether this potential for accelerated wear, which he claims to have experienced, affects Glocks as much as steel and aluminium framed pistols where metal to metal impact is a real problem. I don't know the answer to that but police armorers who have large scale experience of both should be in a better position to know the answer than someone who runs a training school.

If we come back to felt recoil, the Glock has another advantage relative to hammer fired pistols in particular but also to the S&W and the XD. The Glock has a much lower barrel axis and so the muzzle flip effect relative to total recoil is much reduced. Even with its lower weight the Glock can feel as though it less recoil than a SG Sauer for instance.

I don't have a .40S&W Glock but I do have a 19, a 20 and a 33. The 357SIG of the 33 is much the same recoil as the .40S&W in the 27 and I don't find it a problem now that I have modified the shape of the trigger guard. The split times of the 19 with 9mm and the 20 with 10mm are very close and if I were in a gunfight I would much sooner have the 20 than the 19 for the extra KE per shot at very little time penalty between shots. I would like a G32 so that I could compare its split times to the 19, but I have to many pistols already.

I also have a Steyr M1-40A and that is about 4 oz heavier than the G19 or G23 with a barrel axis as low or a little lower than the Glock. That is very nice to shoot but it was designed for the .40S&W in the first place and it has a superb grip design. How much of its "niceness" is due to the extra weight and how much to the grip shape, I don't know.

If you are seriously considering buying a .40S&W Glock I don't think you should be put off by Yeager's opinion but I would advise caution if you are new to handguns. Recoil is something you have to get used to in stages and starting off with the recoil of a .40S&W Glock is likely to cause you lasting problems. If you really want one, get a 9mm conversion barrel and one or two 9mm magazines at the same time. Then you can work up in stages and do much of you practice shooting with cheaper and easier to shoot 9mm.

English
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:49   #69
SCmasterblaster
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Mr. Yeager's credentials speak for themselves:

• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Less Lethal Munitions #00040S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Firearms #00041S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Chemical Weapons #00042S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified to Instruct Expandable Baton #00043S - inactive
• TN P.O.S.T. Certified Police Officer and K-9 handler #97276 - inactive
* Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
* F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
* TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
* FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed” courses
* A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
* Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
* Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
* Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
* Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
* Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
* Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
* NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
* NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
* Glock Certified Armorer
* Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
* Knife Defense Instructor
* Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
* Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
* S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
* Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
* Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
* Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
* Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
* OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
* Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
* Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
* Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
* Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
* S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
* D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
* Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
* Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
* Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
* John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
* Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
* SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
* 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
* Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
* 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
* 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
* 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
* 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
* Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
* Pat Rogers 3-Day Carbine Operator Course
* Caliber Press - Street Survival 2 days
* Glock 2.5 day Instructor Workshop
* NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor
* Rogers Shooting School - Pistol / Intermediate
* Rogers Shooting School - Rifle / Advanced
* Surefire Tactical Technology Specialist Course
* Larry Vickers' AK Operator Course
His CV must be a real pain to write!
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:06   #70
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But, English, a scaled up G-17 is what everyone has always said the G-22 actually is! The G-22 is really nothing more than a trial and error modified G-17 - Which is exactly how I think Gaston and the boys actually built the thing. (Compliments of the ingenuous gun-buying American public.)
I have no disagrement wth that apart from the fact that it is only the bore and the lips of the magazine that were scaled up! After a while they also put another pin in the locking block. All I was saying was that the resulting lightness has carry benefits at the cost of shooting benefits. To some that is worth while. If only they had increased the slide weight to about half way between the 9mm and the .45, there would be far fewer complaints about the snappiness of the .40.
Quote:

Maybe so, but all I care about is how well, or not, a caliber (or chambering) handles and shoots. For whatever reasons it's just plain easier to, 'run and gun' with either a 9 x 19mm, or a 45 ACP pistol. This is the plain 'n pragmatic everyday truth of the matter!
Same answer as above. Do you ever use a pocket pistol? It is a compromise of everyday convenience over slight ease of shooting. That is mainly in practice and there is only a small chance of needing to actually fight when the extra KE might well compensate for the slight increase of split time. In a fight I am sure you would not be noticing the extra recoil and doubt the accuracy would be much different.
Quote:

(I'm not even going to get into any of my personal concerns about Glock 9mm or 45 ACP pistols being a lot safer to use than several of the other Glock caliber/chamberings.)
Ah yes! afascinating subject but not for now.
Quote:

NOT kidding! I absolutely love reading this paragraph. It looks like HerrGlock isn't the only one around here who has his own unique, 'way with words'. Outstanding! (But, what the Hell, are you doing on Glock Talk?)
Thank you. I try to keep it under control but sometimes it slips out.
Quote:

I've, now, read so many different versions of this story that I no longer know what to believe?
I think my version is correct but I have lost the source. It is easy to find out that the 10mm was always 10mm Lite and the weight of the S&W was about 3oz heavier than a 1911 hence relatively mild recoil.
Quote:

Well, in all honesty, this is where I (and I suspect a great many other gunmen) get a lot of my gun information from too.
Yes, but some of us apply the test of reason and argument to what we find on the internet. (I include you in this group.) I have learned a lot that I did not know before by this process as it has made me re-think previously unexamined opinions.
Quote:

In all fairness to Mr. Yeager, I've often heard or seen Gabe Suarez say almost exactly the same thing. I, also, think that the term, 'pressure' needs to be clarified. I wouldn't choose a 40 over a 9 or a 45 on the basis of, 'pressure' too. The question becomes, 'What kind of pressure are we actually talking about here?'
Yes, Gabe Suarez used to be a .40S&W advocate and then became a 9mm advocate. I think, but don't know, that he has been against the .45ACP for a long time - he certainly is now. I disagree with him about the 9mm but agree with him about lots of other ideas about pistol craft. I think Suarez has put a lot of quite original thinking into his ideas and testing them as far as is practical. Without knowing enough about Yeager, I don't think he is that kind of individual, but I don't doubt the shooting ability of either of them.

I think Yeager is just talking about simple psi of the gas inside the barrel.
Quote:

YOU DEFINITELY CAUGHT HIM!



One of the first people I ever ran into on internet gun forums is James Yeager. (I was an early member of, 'Lightfighter.com'.) The man was a gentleman; and he proved to me that he, at least, understands pistolcraft. I've, also, watched several videos of Yeager running a pistol course. Fact is the man can shoot! Is he a hero? Is he a coward? I don't know. A more important question might be, 'Can he teach what he knows about pistolcraft to others?'

I've watched that, 'Route Irish' ambush video several different times. What I see is a man who clearly got himself, 'off the X' in time; and, unlike his comrades, did not promptly return to it. Truth be told, what Yeager did that day is no different than what thousands and thousands of other combat troops have, also, done in many another war. I mean, heck, Napoleon Bonaparte, himself, did nearly the exact same thing when he ordered the bridge at Leipzig to be prematurely destroyed before a large portion of his badly beaten and retreating army was able to escape across it.

I guess things can look a lot different when you're the one who's, 'on the X'. Then again, if I had a friend who abandoned me to fight my own way off a road or out of a building, assuming I survived, that friend and I would be through - Forever!

Personally, I'm not going to, 'Monday morning quarterback' what Yeager did that day. He didn't do it to me; and, were I there, I might have, in fact, chosen to do the same thing, myself. So the only question to be answered is a purely subjective one, 'Do I trust this man to, 'guard my six' when it counts?'

My, 'gut opinion'? ....... No.
I don't have an opinion about this aspect of Yeager's character as I don't know enough of the facts. I don't know where he ran to or what he did when he got there. If he was laying down effective covering fire from a relatively protected position, that could well have been more use than returning to the vehicle and getting shot on the way. If he was just crouching in a ditch it would be a different matter.

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Old 10-31-2012, 10:35   #71
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Irregardless, my next handgun will be a G22. I have bullets, brass, dies, primers, and powder ready to go.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:38   #72
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Irregardless
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:06   #73
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Credentials, experience, talent, whatever... people can still have strange and inexplicably silly opinions on matters. Rob Leatham uses FMJs for home defense.
If i were a bad guy, I don't think I would want Leatham shooting at me regardless of what ammo he's using lol
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:28   #74
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First, thank you! Second, not quite.

The 4th gen Glock is still a .40S&W conversion built on what is essentially a pistol designed for the 9mm. It has the same frames as the 9mm range and the slides are virtually the same weight as the 9mm range. As a result the slide velocity has to be greater in approximate proportion to the difference in bullet momentum. This produces two potential problems. The first is that the pistol has substantially more felt recoil thn the 9mm. Tolerance for felt recoil varies from person to person but for any individual at any point in their development there is some threshold over which a small increase changes the perception from OK to not OK at all. This is why so many people posting say it is not a problem and so many others complain about its unacceptable snappiness.

The second problem is whether it wears out the pistol faster than the 9mm. The Glock is a relatively special case here because the slide is brought to a final stop by the inner front of the slide round the recoil spring impacting a step in the frame. Because the polymer used for the frame is tough and resilient it seems able to endure this more or less indefinitely without damage. The other impact is that of the barrel impacting the steel locking block. That is supported by the polymer frame which has a little give, but if the locking block did wear enough to start to cause a problem it is cheap and easy to replace. What the video did not address was whether this potential for accelerated wear, which he claims to have experienced, affects Glocks as much as steel and aluminium framed pistols where metal to metal impact is a real problem. I don't know the answer to that but police armorers who have large scale experience of both should be in a better position to know the answer than someone who runs a training school.

If we come back to felt recoil, the Glock has another advantage relative to hammer fired pistols in particular but also to the S&W and the XD. The Glock has a much lower barrel axis and so the muzzle flip effect relative to total recoil is much reduced. Even with its lower weight the Glock can feel as though it less recoil than a SG Sauer for instance.

I don't have a .40S&W Glock but I do have a 19, a 20 and a 33. The 357SIG of the 33 is much the same recoil as the .40S&W in the 27 and I don't find it a problem now that I have modified the shape of the trigger guard. The split times of the 19 with 9mm and the 20 with 10mm are very close and if I were in a gunfight I would much sooner have the 20 than the 19 for the extra KE per shot at very little time penalty between shots. I would like a G32 so that I could compare its split times to the 19, but I have to many pistols already.

I also have a Steyr M1-40A and that is about 4 oz heavier than the G19 or G23 with a barrel axis as low or a little lower than the Glock. That is very nice to shoot but it was designed for the .40S&W in the first place and it has a superb grip design. How much of its "niceness" is due to the extra weight and how much to the grip shape, I don't know.

If you are seriously considering buying a .40S&W Glock I don't think you should be put off by Yeager's opinion but I would advise caution if you are new to handguns. Recoil is something you have to get used to in stages and starting off with the recoil of a .40S&W Glock is likely to cause you lasting problems. If you really want one, get a 9mm conversion barrel and one or two 9mm magazines at the same time. Then you can work up in stages and do much of you practice shooting with cheaper and easier to shoot 9mm.

English

Interesting, makes sense.

and no, I'm not considering buying a glock in .40. I have owned them in the past, but prefer the glock 19, I personally shoot 9mm better/faster, even in +P+ loads it seems.
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:38   #75
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Assuming everything Mr. Yeager said is correct, specifically which parts wear out due to the .40 round?

Had Mr. Yeager said "I find the .40 round difficult for me to shoot", then I don't think there would be an issue. But he instead insinuated that no matter the gun and no matter the shooter, the .40 round is difficult to shoot. And that's misinforming pure and simple.

That said, both of my Glocks are .40, although I appreciate most calibers. And I've never had an issue shooting any .40 pistol. My G24 has less muzzle rise than most 9mm's. I'm glad he doesn't like it. More for me.
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