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Old 10-30-2012, 15:50   #41
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I'm not a fan of the 40 S/W myself, but only because I shoot a 10mm, and don't see the need for both of them. His facts are a little skewed and are mostly opinions based on his own theories. I guess he thinks his tats makes him an expert. I am not impressed at all with his theories, and especially with that shooting vid with the photographer in front of the shooters. ???
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Old 10-30-2012, 15:50   #42
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I'd put myself up against this tatted up feminine hygiene product any day of the week. I'll even shoot a .40 and I'll show him how it's done. Just because he can't shoot a .40, .357 Sig, .45 Gap fast and accurate doesn't mean that there aren't those of us that can and do.
I'd like to see that.
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Old 10-30-2012, 16:08   #43
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Class??really??....that was filmed in Iraq.. dumb tool

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Old 10-30-2012, 16:11   #44
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I'd like to see that.
Me too. I'm confident enough in my shooting that I'd be willing.

I don't care who he is. I'd welcome the chance to show him up and prove him wrong.

Anyone else in here willing to try?

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Old 10-30-2012, 16:13   #45
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Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!



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I know who he is. While I usually respect his opinion, he's dead wrong on this one.

Just because he is who he is doesn't automatically make him right every time.
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Old 10-30-2012, 16:18   #46
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Well, since he can't shoot those high pressure rounds he'll at least have a reason for not shooting well right?
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Old 10-30-2012, 16:19   #47
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Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!
Lets just say no more dumb than I feel after reading some of the threads (and certain posts from certain people) on GT anyhow.
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Old 10-30-2012, 16:30   #48
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Me too. I'm confident enough in my shooting that I'd be willing.

I don't care who he is. I'd welcome the chance to show him up and prove him wrong.

Anyone else in here willing to try?

You must be a bad a--, then.

I'd be willin'...not driving to Ohio, though.
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Old 10-30-2012, 16:41   #49
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You must be a bad a--, then.

I'd be willin'...not driving to Ohio, though.


I'm not saying I'm a bad arse, but I'm confident I can hold my own though. I just want to go head to head with him while I'm using a .40 caliber gun of his choice so I can prove to him that I can at least shoot as good as him using a .40.

He doesn't have anything to worry about that though. It can't be done!

Right?


If your ever in Ohio, PM me and we'll get together.

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Old 10-30-2012, 16:49   #50
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If your ever in Ohio, PM me and we'll get together.

Will do.
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Old 10-30-2012, 17:06   #51
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G27 is too small a frame for 40 cal.
40 cal won't shoot 50,000 rounds.
40 cal is harder to shoot.

So, what's his point?
I'm good with all his statements. Guess I can keep all mine.
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Old 10-30-2012, 17:16   #52
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<<<<<<<<<<< not impressed.....I am an instructor too, I teach S&W .38 spcl revolver and 9MM semi-autos......I carry a glock 27. I promise you, I can hang with him with my 27.
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Old 10-30-2012, 17:31   #53
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Very little of what he says is factual. Most of it already covered by prior posts.

Guys like this irritate me to no end. Thinks he knows everything but has no real qualifications. Training thousands of people a year does not qualify you for much of anything.

Most of what he says is his own opinion, that he states as factual! Guys like this tattooed clown make me sick.
I would like to kneecap him with a 40.
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Old 10-30-2012, 18:03   #54
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Me too. I'm confident enough in my shooting that I'd be willing.

I don't care who he is. I'd welcome the chance to show him up and prove him wrong.

Anyone else in here willing to try?

^^ my God you really are the man in the picture

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Old 10-30-2012, 18:22   #55
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^^ my God you really are the man in the picture

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Doo!





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Old 10-30-2012, 18:35   #56
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^^ my God you really are the man in the picture

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Maybe read her sig line.
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Old 10-30-2012, 18:53   #57
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Maybe read her sig line.
No

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Old 10-30-2012, 20:38   #58
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Well, I recognised his training site as one of the big name ones but didn't know he was James Yeager. Now that I know that I am no more impressed. I only noticed one correct thing in his whole presentation, and that was that many .40S&W pistols were scaled up 9mms and that as such they were not heavy enough for the recoil of the round.

In passing he admitted that this was not true of the HK and other pistols designed specifically for the .40. Even that is only partly true in a pratical sense because the Glock, with its light weight, is easier to carry and for many that more than outweighs the extra felt recoil. Think of a Glock in .40S&W as sharing the characeristics of a pocket pistol. Power per ounce is a major criterion! 2 inch 357 Magnum snubies are not fun to shoot but people still carry them for good reason.
But, English, a scaled up G-17 is what everyone has always said the G-22 actually is! The G-22 is really nothing more than a trial and error modified G-17 - Which is exactly how I think Gaston and the boys actually built the thing. (Compliments of the ingenuous gun-buying American public.)

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If the .40 is a high pressure round, so is the 9mm - they are very close. More important the pressure inside the barrel has very little effect on wear. Bullet momentum and slide velocity are the most significant parameters for wear rate and the bullet momentum of his favoured .45ACP is much higher than the 9mm but designers usually deal with it by having a heavier slide. A 9mm conversion barrel will not drive the slide fast enough in a G21 or 20 for instance. The bullet momentum of the .40S&W, as originally defined from the FBI tests which established the 10mm Lite, had a bullet momentum equal to the normal 230gn .45ACP.
Maybe so, but all I care about is how well, or not, a caliber (or chambering) handles and shoots. For whatever reasons it's just plain easier to, 'run and gun' with either a 9 x 19mm, or a 45 ACP pistol. This is the plain 'n pragmatic everyday truth of the matter!

(I'm not even going to get into any of my personal concerns about Glock 9mm or 45 ACP pistols being a lot safer to use than several of the other Glock caliber/chamberings.)

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That segues into the FBI and the ontogenesis of the .40S&W. When the FBI set up the test protocol for their post Miami Shootout pistol selection they specified that no round had to have more than the bullet momentum of the normal .45ACP. ab initio, they included the .38Sp for comparisson, since that was what had failed in Miami, the 9mm and the .45ACP. .......
NOT kidding! I absolutely love reading this paragraph. It looks like HerrGlock isn't the only one around here who has his own unique, 'way with words'. Outstanding! (But, what the Hell, are you doing on Glock Talk?)

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This had several consequences. The first was that the FBI ordered a large quantity of 10mm loaded to the test specification. They never had full power 10mm rounds. The second was that they ordered a big batch of 10mm pistols from S&W. Those pistols were about 3 oz heavier than the 1911 Government model and so had slightly less felt recoil. All the so amusing stories about the recoil being too much for wimpy FBI Agents were just nonsense. The scrapping of the 10mm project and the escape from the S&W contract were all a matter of internal politics and a rather dirty story. It was a couple of years before S&W brought out the .40S&W and so it was not a matter of the FBI choosing it as a replacement for the 10mm.
I've, now, read so many different versions of this story that I no longer know what to believe?

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So we have the famous, extremely self confident but ignorant James Yeager repeating the tales that he could pick up in any gun website, without wondering if they are true or false.
Well, in all honesty, this is where I (and I suspect a great many other gunmen) get a lot of my gun information from too.

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Perhaps most importantly, he makes the unsupported claim that all the main cartridges are as effective as each other - 9mm, .40S&W, 357SIG, .45GAP and .45ACP - but that on the spurious basis of pressure one shoud choose either the 9mm or the .45ACP. That is, the two cartridges with the greatest divergence of characteristics - light and moderately fast versus heavy and distinctly slow!

To know that the five major self defence rounds are equal in their effects he would have had to shoot lots of people with the different rounds under controled circumstances. Neither he, nor anyone else, has done that. He is talking nonsense.
In all fairness to Mr. Yeager, I've often heard or seen Gabe Suarez say almost exactly the same thing. I, also, think that the term, 'pressure' needs to be clarified. I wouldn't choose a 40 over a 9 or a 45 on the basis of, 'pressure' too. The question becomes, 'What kind of pressure are we actually talking about here?'

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And then he makes the claim that he has trained 3000 people in the last month alone. That is 100 per day if he works a 30 day month. I wonder how much personal attention he gives them? Does he give them all some kind of survey to fill in of how long their various pistols last? If he does such a thing why does he not tell us the results rather than saying that he is a great trainer and so he just knows.
YOU DEFINITELY CAUGHT HIM!

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The simple truth is that James Yeager can probably teach people to shoot pistols with reasonable competence, but he has little or no understandig of the nature of knowledge, and its falsification or verification within some limits of confidence.
One of the first people I ever ran into on internet gun forums is James Yeager. (I was an early member of, 'Lightfighter.com'.) The man was a gentleman; and he proved to me that he, at least, understands pistolcraft. I've, also, watched several videos of Yeager running a pistol course. Fact is the man can shoot! Is he a hero? Is he a coward? I don't know. A more important question might be, 'Can he teach what he knows about pistolcraft to others?'

I've watched that, 'Route Irish' ambush video several different times. What I see is a man who clearly got himself, 'off the X' in time; and, unlike his comrades, did not promptly return to it. Truth be told, what Yeager did that day is no different than what thousands and thousands of other combat troops have, also, done in many another war. I mean, heck, Napoleon Bonaparte, himself, did nearly the exact same thing when he ordered the bridge at Leipzig to be prematurely destroyed before a large portion of his badly beaten and retreating army was able to escape across it.

I guess things can look a lot different when you're the one who's, 'on the X'. Then again, if I had a friend who abandoned me to fight my own way off a road or out of a building, assuming I survived, that friend and I would be through - Forever!

Personally, I'm not going to, 'Monday morning quarterback' what Yeager did that day. He didn't do it to me; and, were I there, I might have, in fact, chosen to do the same thing, myself. So the only question to be answered is a purely subjective one, 'Do I trust this man to, 'guard my six' when it counts?'

My, 'gut opinion'? ....... No.

Last edited by Arc Angel; 10-30-2012 at 20:45..
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Old 10-30-2012, 21:00   #59
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Yeager use to be on GT, I don't know if he still is. What he said about the .40 cal should make no difference to what caliber, pistol, rifle, shotgun, etc you choose to use.

If I could walk around with him or any other instructor strapped to my back and would fight my fights for me then I might listen to them. I am responsible for my family's ass and mine so I will use what I like.


He didn't say not to use it he just gave his reasons for not liking it but like I always said use what works for you.

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Old 10-30-2012, 22:36   #60
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Well, I recognised his training site as one of the big name ones but didn't know he was James Yeager. Now that I know that I am no more impressed. I only noticed one correct thing in his whole presentation, and that was that many .40S&W pistols were scaled up 9mms and that as such they were not heavy enough for the recoil of the round. In passing he admitted that this was not true of the HK and other pistols designed specifically for the .40. Even that is only partly true in a pratical sense because the Glock, with its light weight, is easier to carry and for many that more than outweighs the extra felt recoil. Think of a Glock in .40S&W as sharing the characeristics of a pocket pistol. Power per ounce is a major criterion! 2 inch 357 Magnum snubies are not fun to shoot but people still carry them for good reason.

The wear issue is unimportant and he misunderstands it. Even if the pistols wear out in, say, 35,000 rounds, the cost of replacing the pistol is small relative to the total cost of ammunition expended. Many people who carry a pistol 12 or more hours a day will think that a saving of 4 to 6 oz or so is a good trade off.

If the .40 is a high pressure round, so is the 9mm - they are very close. More important the pressure inside the barrel has very little effect on wear. Bullet momentum and slide velocity are the most significant parameters for wear rate and the bullet momentum of his favoured .45ACP is much higher than the 9mm but designers usually deal with it by having a heavier slide. A 9mm conversion barrel will not drive the slide fast enough in a G21 or 20 for instance. The bullet momentum of the .40S&W, as originally defined from the FBI tests which established the 10mm Lite, had a bullet momentum equal to the normal 230gn .45ACP.

That segues into the FBI and the ontogenesis of the .40S&W. When the FBI set up the test protocol for their post Miami Shootout pistol selection they specified that no round had to have more than the bullet momentum of the normal .45ACP. ab initio, they included the .38Sp for comparisson, since that was what had failed in Miami, the 9mm and the .45ACP. Only once the test team was set up did one of the team suggest the inclusion of the 10mm. The idea was agreed to, but, because of the recoil limit, he handloaded all the test rounds to equal the recoil of the .45ACP using a 180gn bullet. By a very small margin that light loading of the 10mm beat the .45ACP but the team said they would be hapy with either.

This had several consequences. The first was that the FBI ordered a large quantity of 10mm loaded to the test specification. They never had full power 10mm rounds. The second was that they ordered a big batch of 10mm pistols from S&W. Those pistols were about 3 oz heavier than the 1911 Government model and so had slightly less felt recoil. All the so amusing stories about the recoil being too much for wimpy FBI Agents were just nonsense. The scrapping of the 10mm project and the escape from the S&W contract were all a matter of internal politics and a rather dirty story. It was a couple of years before S&W brought out the .40S&W and so it was not a matter of the FBI choosing it as a replacement for the 10mm.

So we have the famous, extremely self confident but ignorant James Yeager repeating the tales that he could pick up in any gun website, without wondering if they are true or false.

Perhaps most importantly, he makes the unsupported claim that all the main cartridges are as effective as each other - 9mm, .40S&W, 357SIG, .45GAP and .45ACP - but that on the spurious basis of pressure one shoud choose either the 9mm or the .45ACP. That is, the two cartridges with the greatest divergence of characteristics - light and moderately fast versus heavy and distinctly slow! To know that the five major self defence rounds are equal in their effects he would have had to shoot lots of people with the different rounds under controled circumstances. Neither he, nor anyone else, has done that. He is talking nonsense.

And then he makes the claim that he has trained 3000 people in the last month alone. That is 100 per day if he works a 30 day month. I wonder how much personal attention he gives them? Does he give them all some kind of survey to fill in of how long their various pistols last? If he does such a thing why does he not tell us the results rather than saying that he is a great trainer and so he just knows.

The simple truth is that James Yeager can probably teach people to shoot pistols with reasonable competence, but he has little or no understandig of the nature of knowledge, and its falsification or verification within some limits of confidence.

English

English, great post, and very informative!

That's one of the main reasons I started this thread and put this video up.

So in a sense, if the platform was build FOR the .40, sort of like a 4th gen glock in .40 caliber, it should be as durable as a 9mm glock, since the recoil spring was now built around the .40, correct? Given the pressure in the barrel doesn't matter as much as slide momentum, right?
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