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Old 10-30-2012, 09:58   #26
SDGlock23
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Well Mr. Yeager needs to understand that his beloved 9mm is indeed a "high pressure" round, the 38 Special and .45 ACP guys can get away with saying that, not 9mm guys.

Terminal ballistics do often look very similar, but is it because the 9mm is equally as good, or that they represent the best that particular cartridge can muster? No, it's pretty simple. High quality hollow point loads in 9mm, 357 Sig, .40 and .45 are designed to meet certain perimeters, so it's no surprise that they seem to perform similarly...they're designed to.

If you shoot a Glock, I don't care what caliber, enough to wear it out, you've spent so much $$ on ammunition that buying another Glock to replace it shouldn't be an issue. Interesting that he claims that all that extra recoil and pressure and energy exerted in tearing the .40 cal Glock apart faster doesn't really do anything at the business end of things....ummmm sure.

We know it's all about shot placement, and I have no issue shooting my .40's or .45's every bit as well as my 9mm. If you can't shoot a .40 or 357 Sig or .45 just as well as a 9mm, you need more range time. Perhaps you can get slightly faster split times with a 9mm and that may be handy in a competition, but if I want 9mm like recoil I can load down my .40's to to be a *****cat, I've got 9mm recoil and still shoot a bigger bullet.

That's what I love about the .40. I can load it light if I want to, or can load it normal or even hot and have everything covered. I can shoot a 135gr plated at 950 fps or a JHP at 1600 fps. A 165gr bullet at 850 fps or 1400 fps. A 200gr bullet at 800 fps or 1200 fps. A 180gr bullet at 850 fps or 1300 fps. All the while I have great capacity, brass is practically free, and can have it in a 9mm sized handgun. When the 9mm or .45 (acp) can give me that kind of versatility, let me know.
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:08   #27
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I think that there at least 3 ways to look at this issue. One is by using bullet weight and velocity, then the issue becomes one of what measure you want to "assign" as your your favorite. Two is too look at some of the studies that attempted to record results based on caliber. The third is expermental by looking at performance in a controlled environment. You can pick your method and quantity measured to make any caliber be the best.

Many of the ammo makers have taylored their performance to match the FBI recomendations. So, with this measure you can make 9mm, 357SIG, .40, .45ACP, .45GAP and others meet the recomendations. The following link is one from Winchester on their SD ammo line. I see no indication that there is much difference between the calibers based on their testing.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

If you plan on shooting something other than 2 legged BAD GUYS then that is another subject.
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:16   #28
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Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
Well Mr. Yeager needs to understand that his beloved 9mm is indeed a "high pressure" round, the 38 Special and .45 ACP guys can get away with saying that, not 9mm guys.

Terminal ballistics do often look very similar, but is it because the 9mm is equally as good, or that they represent the best that particular cartridge can muster? No, it's pretty simple. High quality hollow point loads in 9mm, 357 Sig, .40 and .45 are designed to meet certain perimeters, so it's no surprise that they seem to perform similarly...they're designed to.

If you shoot a Glock, I don't care what caliber, enough to wear it out, you've spent so much $$ on ammunition that buying another Glock to replace it shouldn't be an issue. Interesting that he claims that all that extra recoil and pressure and energy exerted in tearing the .40 cal Glock apart faster doesn't really do anything at the business end of things....ummmm sure.

We know it's all about shot placement, and I have no issue shooting my .40's or .45's every bit as well as my 9mm. If you can't shoot a .40 or 357 Sig or .45 just as well as a 9mm, you need more range time. Perhaps you can get slightly faster split times with a 9mm and that may be handy in a competition, but if I want 9mm like recoil I can load down my .40's to to be a *****cat, I've got 9mm recoil and still shoot a bigger bullet.

That's what I love about the .40. I can load it light if I want to, or can load it normal or even hot and have everything covered. I can shoot a 135gr plated at 950 fps or a JHP at 1600 fps. A 165gr bullet at 850 fps or 1400 fps. A 200gr bullet at 800 fps or 1200 fps. A 180gr bullet at 850 fps or 1300 fps. All the while I have great capacity, brass is practically free, and can have it in a 9mm sized handgun. When the 9mm or .45 (acp) can give me that kind of versatility, let me know.
I never realized that the .40S&W was so versatile; much more than the 9mm. My next gun is a G22!
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:27   #29
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I think that there at least 3 ways to look at this issue. One is by using bullet weight and velocity, then the issue becomes one of what measure you want to "assign" as your your favorite. Two is too look at some of the studies that attempted to record results based on caliber. The third is expermental by looking at performance in a controlled environment. You can pick your method and quantity measured to make any caliber be the best.

Many of the ammo makers have taylored their performance to match the FBI recomendations. So, with this measure you can make 9mm, 357SIG, .40, .45ACP, .45GAP and others meet the recomendations. The following link is one from Winchester on their SD ammo line. I see no indication that there is much difference between the calibers based on their testing.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

If you plan on shooting something other than 2 legged BAD GUYS then that is another subject.
I think these gel tests leave out a very important factor, bones. it seems that a center of mass hit has about a 50% chance of hitting bone. now if they ever come up with simulated bone to embed into the gel we would have a better idea of the difference between calibers, loads, and different bullet performance. as it is now its no suprize there isn't that much difference between comparing caliber performance in gel.

Last edited by 1canvas; 10-30-2012 at 11:28..
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:42   #30
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I think these gel tests leave out a very important factor, bones. it seems that a center of mass hit has about a 50% chance of hitting bone. now if they ever come up with simulated bone to embed into the gel we would have a better idea of the difference between calibers, loads, and different bullet performance. as it is now its no suprize there isn't that much difference between comparing caliber performance in gel.
The FBI penetration recommomendation 12" in gel takes into account bone.

Mesure the depth of your chest.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:43   #31
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I think these gel tests leave out a very important factor, bones. it seems that a center of mass hit has about a 50% chance of hitting bone. now if they ever come up with simulated bone to embed into the gel we would have a better idea of the difference between calibers, loads, and different bullet performance. as it is now its no suprize there isn't that much difference between comparing caliber performance in gel.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm%2...one%20Test.pdf
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:59   #32
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The FBI penetration recommomendation 12" in gel takes into account bone.

Mesure the depth of your chest.
my point is what happens to what bullet at what caliber at what speed. does the bullet plow through, expand, deflect, frag or what when hitting bone supported by gel. no amount of pure gel can tell you what happens when bullet hits bone directly or indirectly. I would bet you would see a real separation in calibers and bullet performance if simulated bone was introduced. I am surprized it hasn't happened yet.
I know there is a limit on testing to duplicate real world performance but 100% gel seems lacking.

Last edited by 1canvas; 10-30-2012 at 12:00..
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Old 10-30-2012, 14:29   #33
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He does make some very very valid points. Like many studies have shown that in effect there is no significant difference in number of rounds to incapacitate between 9mm & .40.
"No significant difference"? So there IS a difference?

I have no doubt the .40 can potentially be more effective than the 9. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't. There are always other factors though. If one can shoot a 9 better/faster than the 40, then the 9 is better, period. The ballistic difference is too minor to be the overriding consideration.

Anybody that thinks 180gr .40 is difficult to shoot needs some expert training.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 10-30-2012 at 14:39..
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Old 10-30-2012, 14:31   #34
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The FBI penetration recommomendation 12" in gel takes into account bone.
The 12-18" distance range is to account for non-frontal shots. Has nothing to do with what bones are in the way. Not directly anyway. But presumably when striking bone a round that does 16" in gel would generally do better than a round that does 12". But the point is, once a bone is struck everything goes out the window.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 10-30-2012 at 14:37..
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Old 10-30-2012, 14:35   #35
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That's what I love about the .40. I can load it light if I want to, or can load it normal or even hot and have everything covered. I can shoot a 135gr plated at 950 fps or a JHP at 1600 fps. A 165gr bullet at 850 fps or 1400 fps. A 200gr bullet at 800 fps or 1200 fps. A 180gr bullet at 850 fps or 1300 fps.
To me that versatility means nothing. I choose what I consider the best weight/velocity for a self-defense round and I practice with something that matches that as closely as possible. I'm not constantly switching around between weight and velocity extremes.
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Old 10-30-2012, 14:46   #36
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Was that really one of Yeager's classes?????

If so, he is bigger tool than I thought and no I don't feel dumb as Hell.

Class??really??....that was filmed in Iraq.. dumb tool

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Old 10-30-2012, 14:49   #37
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I never realized that the .40S&W was so versatile; much more than the 9mm. My next gun is a G22!
^^ yeah right........:rolleyes:....

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Old 10-30-2012, 15:10   #38
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People really get worked up over this stuff.
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Old 10-30-2012, 15:32   #39
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He's going to the paintball ranch tomorrow and afterwords he's going home to his mothers basement to play World of Warcraft.

(After he rubs his mothers feet that is.)

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Old 10-30-2012, 15:47   #40
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If the 9mm is all he can handle that is OK, For some people it take years shooting 177cal pellets to be able to handle a 9mm
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Old 10-30-2012, 15:50   #41
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I'm not a fan of the 40 S/W myself, but only because I shoot a 10mm, and don't see the need for both of them. His facts are a little skewed and are mostly opinions based on his own theories. I guess he thinks his tats makes him an expert. I am not impressed at all with his theories, and especially with that shooting vid with the photographer in front of the shooters. ???
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Old 10-30-2012, 15:50   #42
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I'd put myself up against this tatted up feminine hygiene product any day of the week. I'll even shoot a .40 and I'll show him how it's done. Just because he can't shoot a .40, .357 Sig, .45 Gap fast and accurate doesn't mean that there aren't those of us that can and do.
I'd like to see that.
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Old 10-30-2012, 16:08   #43
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Class??really??....that was filmed in Iraq.. dumb tool

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The video of the class with the photographer on the target line was filmed in Iraq? Slow your roll.



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Old 10-30-2012, 16:11   #44
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I'd like to see that.
Me too. I'm confident enough in my shooting that I'd be willing.

I don't care who he is. I'd welcome the chance to show him up and prove him wrong.

Anyone else in here willing to try?

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Old 10-30-2012, 16:13   #45
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Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!



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I know who he is. While I usually respect his opinion, he's dead wrong on this one.

Just because he is who he is doesn't automatically make him right every time.
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Old 10-30-2012, 16:18   #46
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Well, since he can't shoot those high pressure rounds he'll at least have a reason for not shooting well right?
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Old 10-30-2012, 16:19   #47
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Once you realize who he is, you will feel dumb as hell!
Lets just say no more dumb than I feel after reading some of the threads (and certain posts from certain people) on GT anyhow.
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Old 10-30-2012, 16:30   #48
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Me too. I'm confident enough in my shooting that I'd be willing.

I don't care who he is. I'd welcome the chance to show him up and prove him wrong.

Anyone else in here willing to try?

You must be a bad a--, then.

I'd be willin'...not driving to Ohio, though.
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Old 10-30-2012, 16:41   #49
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You must be a bad a--, then.

I'd be willin'...not driving to Ohio, though.


I'm not saying I'm a bad arse, but I'm confident I can hold my own though. I just want to go head to head with him while I'm using a .40 caliber gun of his choice so I can prove to him that I can at least shoot as good as him using a .40.

He doesn't have anything to worry about that though. It can't be done!

Right?


If your ever in Ohio, PM me and we'll get together.

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Old 10-30-2012, 16:49   #50
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If your ever in Ohio, PM me and we'll get together.

Will do.
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