GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-14-2012, 20:17   #151
ray9898
Senior Member
 
ray9898's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Georgia
Posts: 17,163


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sporaticus View Post
That was basically about location. The local zoning code of that area apparently allowed multifamily dwellings. That kind of thing DOES hurt property values.
Negative....both homes were in a 1/4 mile of each other. Both were zoned the same but one had a HOA that set reasonable restrictions. The 'two families' appeared to be two female room mates with about 6 kids between them.

Last edited by ray9898; 10-14-2012 at 20:19..
ray9898 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2012, 20:22   #152
Sporaticus
Aw sheet main
 
Sporaticus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Closing in on 900 posts.
Posts: 861
So you are implying that having roomates with children hurt the property value? You want to live under an HOA that limits the number of children? I suspect if we knew the pertinents, there is more to it that just the neighbors having a bunch of kids.

It sounds like you were wise to pass.
__________________
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
I would take a book learner over the assumption making that runs rampid on this forum.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rampid
Sporaticus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2012, 20:50   #153
ray9898
Senior Member
 
ray9898's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Georgia
Posts: 17,163


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sporaticus View Post
So you are implying that having roomates with children hurt the property value? You want to live under an HOA that limits the number of children? I suspect if we knew the pertinents, there is more to it that just the neighbors having a bunch of kids.

It sounds like you were wise to pass.
I am in fact implying having a rental home next door with likely relvolving unstable short term residents is not a positive factor.

I am also implying having a neighbor with 3 non-running vehicles in his yard, one covered by a blue tarp, that had not seen a weed trimmer around them all summer which the beautiful deck with screened in porch faced was also a detractor.

Last edited by ray9898; 10-14-2012 at 21:50..
ray9898 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 01:10   #154
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,825
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sporaticus View Post
<<<SNIP>>>>my home would never be worth more than $400 million. <<<SNIP>>>>

I'm a little different than people like you. I chose an area based on the 3 most important factors: location, location, location. I know all those petty little piss ant things don't have the first thing to do with property value.
Since you are a high roller, why dont you explain to us why you walk into a Porsche dealership and it looks so much different than a chevy dealership? Why are there lattes machines and donuts for the customers? Why doesn't chevy invited people out a race track with some new corvettes or camaros to hammer on?

So when you are driving by all the used car dealerships in the poor areas (buy here/pay here places), do you think a BMW sitting on their lot has its value affected by the other cars around it? Sure it does. You question "what is wrong with it".

I can tell you, that how an area look DOES affect how much I will pay. If I see an el camino on blocks sitting in a driveway, I wont buy there. Its simple. I am not against working on cars (I like my toy and work on it). But I do that in a garage. The el camino is sitting out there because they have too much crap in their garage.

I wont live in a place that looks like a slum. If I wont buy your house, you're damn right it most likely affects you property values (well, since you have a $400M house that is a little out of my price range)
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.

Last edited by DanaT; 10-15-2012 at 01:10..
DanaT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 04:43   #155
harleypilot
Member
 
harleypilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 58
The op's HOA obviously made a mistake when they towed his car, and as such they should reimburse him the towing fee. If they don't, he can take them to small claims court and probably win.
As far as HOA's go, it doesn't really matter how bad you think the rules are, you signed the agreement when you bought in the neighborhood. You essentially gave your word that you would abide by them, so I don't see why there is any problem.
If you don't like the rules, buy a house somewhere else. If you give your word on something, keep it.
__________________
If you don't own a Harley, don't blame your wife for having a boyfriend who does.
harleypilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 04:55   #156
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 33,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Kill View Post
I am renting a townhouse that has a HOA... I know... Stupid me! Anyway, when we moved in we registered our plates for parking. I used to take home a work car when I was on call(would leave my POV at work) but stopped due to little yellow pieces of paper under the windshield that said the vehicle would be towed since it didn't have the 1"x1" parking sticker.

Two weeks ago the wife and I bought a new car and I transferred the tags... The same tags that are registered... This morning I go outside and my brand new car is gone. After I called the PD to report it stolen they said they were notified it was towed. I contacted a rep with the HOA and he told me it was towed because it didn't have that little parking sticker and even though the plate was registered it didn't matter since it didn't have the sticker. I asked what ever happened to leaving the "warnings" on the car so I could have gotten a new sticker since I JUST bought it...and my old car was here 3 months before they finally sent the stickers without a problem. He told me they don't leave the yellow papers anymore since people don't listen to them anyway so now they just tow cars without warning. $175 later I have my car back... I know I'll lose but it's going to be an all out *****fest on Monday when we call the main office.

I can't wait until April and I can move the hell out of here!!
As much as I hate HOA's...you knew the rule and had 2 weeks to comply and you didn't bother to put the sticker on, so your car got towed. How is that anybody's fault but yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by harleypilot View Post
The op's HOA obviously made a mistake when they towed his car, and as such they should reimburse him the towing fee. If they don't, he can take them to small claims court and probably win.
They didn't make a mistake and he won't win, according to what he says. They tow cars without a sticker - he knew he was supposed to have a sticker and didn't put one on. They win.
__________________
Open carry activists are to gun rights what the Westboro Baptist Church is to free speech.

Last edited by Bren; 10-15-2012 at 04:56..
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 05:00   #157
harleypilot
Member
 
harleypilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
As much as I hate HOA's...you knew the rule and had 2 weeks to comply and you didn't bother to put the sticker on, so your car got towed. How is that anybody's fault but yours?



They didn't make a mistake and he won't win, according to what he says. They tow cars without a sticker - he knew he was supposed to have a sticker and didn't put one on. They win.
I re-read the op and you are right. I was thinking he had asked for and was waiting for the new sticker. My mistake.
__________________
If you don't own a Harley, don't blame your wife for having a boyfriend who does.
harleypilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 05:12   #158
NorthCarolinaLiberty
MentalDefective
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tax Funded Mental Institution
Posts: 5,144
Blog Entries: 1
The home value argument is no different than a union justifying mandatory membership because the new employee will be financially better off.

I contract with a merchant to work, not with the other employees. I contract with the property seller when buying, not the neighbors.

Perhaps what we really need is right to live states.
NorthCarolinaLiberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 05:19   #159
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,825
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
The home value argument is no different than a union justifying mandatory membership because the new employee will be financially better off.

I contract with a merchant to work, not with the other employees. I contract with the property seller when buying, not the neighbors.

Perhaps what we really need is right to live states.
Except with an HOA in this example he contracted with the HOA to park on THEIR property. He does not own the parking space.

When you sign an HOA contract when buying a detached house, you are contract with the property seller to buy under those conditions. The first property seller (the developer) is the one who makes an HOA. As a condition of the purchase, you agree that you will only sell in the future based upon the encumbrances on the house.

I am not sure what happens if you buy a house in an HOA area (as a resale) and refuse to sign the HOA documents. I am not sure if anyone can force a new buyer to agree to the docs. With the original developer, they simply wont sell the house to you if you refuse.

But in the current economy, I could see people selling even if someone refused to sign the HOA documents. I think that is an interesting legal question.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 05:33   #160
NorthCarolinaLiberty
MentalDefective
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tax Funded Mental Institution
Posts: 5,144
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post

I am not sure what happens if you buy a house in an HOA area (as a resale) and refuse to sign the HOA documents. I am not sure if anyone can force a new buyer to agree to the docs. With the original developer, they simply wont sell the house to you if you refuse.

But in the current economy, I could see people selling even if someone refused to sign the HOA documents. I think that is an interesting legal question.
I've never dealt with an HOA, so I'd be interested to know the answer to that legal question too. I do know that the term mandatory gets thrown around a lot. I belonged to one mandatory union, but opted out. I was still required to pay some dues, but maybe I should have pursued it more. You hear all the time about mandatory vaccines, but opting out is an easy option.

I might guess that a continually declining economy will erode the teeth in mandatory HOA membership.
NorthCarolinaLiberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 05:41   #161
Louisville Glocker
Urban Redneck
 
Louisville Glocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,119
Simple words: "Live and Let Live."

No way I'll EVER move into a place with a Home Owners Association. It is a choice some people make for their own personal reasons. Power to 'em. It'll keep them away from normal people like me. They can live in their little enclaves. I don't like to say never, but I'll say it on this one.

If I want to leave my fishtank sitting out in my backyard, that is my deal, not my neighbor's. Or if I want to mow every three weeks, you know what? I live in a free country. If there is a real health hazard or something, then I'm ok with doing the right thing for the community, but if your fat ass just doesn't like the way my house looks? Well...tough....luck.

I'd be living out in the country if it was just me to decide. Give me a few acres and let me build up my compound. One of these years.....
__________________
Louisville Glocker
Louisville Kentucky
G19 G26 G30 Sig 2340 357 Beretta U22 (kid's) Two Saiga 12 Two Draco 7.62x39 "pistols" Colt 6920 Saiga SGL21-94, M92 Krinkov "pistol," PSA Patrol Carbine Saiga 223 CCDW KY
Louisville Glocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 07:43   #162
.264 magnum
CLM Number 121
Charter Lifetime Member
 
.264 magnum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 16,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by tantrix View Post
Pretty much. And they're also people you wouldn't want to live by to begin with. I'd rather live next to a guy working on his '66 Chevelle in the driveway than one that's out watering his lawn all the time.
That's obvious.
__________________
The Gonzales Flag - "Come and Take It!"
.264 magnum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 07:44   #163
.264 magnum
CLM Number 121
Charter Lifetime Member
 
.264 magnum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 16,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sporaticus View Post
Bad schools, bad roads, high crime, high taxes, bad government, highway cutting through your front yard, too much retail, not enough retail, too much commercial development, a landfill, junkyard, overall dilapidated appearance of the neighborhood, and numerous foreclosures..... all DO harm property values.

Weeds in the neighbors yard, grass not cut weekly, grass not watered, a lack of parking stickers, cars backed in, colored Christmas lights, mailbox colors, backyard tomato plants, garage doors open, DO NOT harm property values.

It's not that some things don't harm property values. The question is, what really DOES. And most of the things the high brow wannabees and pricks think do, actually do not.

The whole direction of this thread is due to some of the above claiming the OP not having a parking sticker harms their property value, and his incompetent HOA is the defender of the property values. It's just stupid.
You are in fantasy land.
__________________
The Gonzales Flag - "Come and Take It!"
.264 magnum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 07:49   #164
.264 magnum
CLM Number 121
Charter Lifetime Member
 
.264 magnum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 16,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
Except with an HOA in this example he contracted with the HOA to park on THEIR property. He does not own the parking space.

When you sign an HOA contract when buying a detached house, you are contract with the property seller to buy under those conditions. The first property seller (the developer) is the one who makes an HOA. As a condition of the purchase, you agree that you will only sell in the future based upon the encumbrances on the house.

I am not sure what happens if you buy a house in an HOA area (as a resale) and refuse to sign the HOA documents. I am not sure if anyone can force a new buyer to agree to the docs. With the original developer, they simply wont sell the house to you if you refuse.

But in the current economy, I could see people selling even if someone refused to sign the HOA documents. I think that is an interesting legal question.
Around here closing cannot be completed without signing HOA docs, no signature - no house.
__________________
The Gonzales Flag - "Come and Take It!"
.264 magnum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 08:21   #165
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 33,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by .264 magnum View Post
Around here closing cannot be completed without signing HOA docs, no signature - no house.
Which is why I would never consider buying a house in a place with an HOA. Even without the HOA, I can't imagine why people would live in the kind of neighborhoods that have them. Blocks of identical cookie cutter crap with a minivan in every driveway. It's basically my vision of hell.
__________________
Open carry activists are to gun rights what the Westboro Baptist Church is to free speech.

Last edited by Bren; 10-15-2012 at 08:22..
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 08:22   #166
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,825
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by .264 magnum View Post
Around here closing cannot be completed without signing HOA docs, no signature - no house.
I know that it is like that here, but is that just because someone hasnt challenged it in court?

Is that a matter of law or of just practicality?

I dont really know.

For example, if you could show that HOA convents prevented the sale of a house that you owned (i.e. the buyer refused to buy and signed everything except that) you can show damages, could you sue the HOA for preventing the sale?

Again, I dont know. I dont know if anyone tried. I have seen where some people have had court cases won and had the HOA restriction removed from the deed because of actions of the HOA and the remedy by the court was to void the contract, so an HOA being attached to a deed is not a restriction that MUST be carried. I just dont know what the challenges are.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 08:24   #167
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,825
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Blocks of identical cookie cutter crap with a minivan in every driveway. It's basically my vision of hell.
Obviously you havent seen the minivan commercial. I am pretty sure he was riding a Harley and needed his wife to pick him up
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 08:33   #168
.264 magnum
CLM Number 121
Charter Lifetime Member
 
.264 magnum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 16,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Which is why I would never consider buying a house in a place with an HOA. Even without the HOA, I can't imagine why people would live in the kind of neighborhoods that have them. Blocks of identical cookie cutter crap with a minivan in every driveway. It's basically my vision of hell.
We are even. I'd never consider buying a house in a dense part of a city without an HOA. My neighborhood is not cookie cutter in any way - homes from 50 years old to brand new, from maybe $650K - way over $10 million. I'm not sure if a single neighbor has a mini-van either.
__________________
The Gonzales Flag - "Come and Take It!"
.264 magnum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 08:40   #169
.264 magnum
CLM Number 121
Charter Lifetime Member
 
.264 magnum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 16,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
I know that it is like that here, but is that just because someone hasnt challenged it in court?

Is that a matter of law or of just practicality?

I dont really know.

For example, if you could show that HOA convents prevented the sale of a house that you owned (i.e. the buyer refused to buy and signed everything except that) you can show damages, could you sue the HOA for preventing the sale?

Again, I dont know. I dont know if anyone tried. I have seen where some people have had court cases won and had the HOA restriction removed from the deed because of actions of the HOA and the remedy by the court was to void the contract, so an HOA being attached to a deed is not a restriction that MUST be carried. I just dont know what the challenges are.
I used to be on an HOA's Architectural Committee and this came up a time or two. "I'll sue you if the HOA does not allow my buyer to buy without signing the covenant docs etc....." was how the conversation went both times. The HOA lawyer told us this was long decided private contract law and further the HOA would likely not be sued because no sane lawyer would file the papers.

And I'm not claiming that all HOA CCRs are wholly "legal". In fact I'm sure most have some areas that are illegal/unenforceable etc. That's does not make the entire CCR illegal or unenforceable.
__________________
The Gonzales Flag - "Come and Take It!"
.264 magnum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 08:51   #170
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,825
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by .264 magnum View Post
I used to be on an HOA's Architectural Committee and this came up a time or two. "I'll sue you if the HOA does not allow my buyer to buy without signing the covenant docs etc....." was how the conversation went both times. The HOA lawyer told us this was long decided private contract law and further the HOA would likely not be sued because no sane lawyer would file the papers.

And I'm not claiming that all HOA CCRs are wholly "legal". In fact I'm sure most have some areas that are illegal/unenforceable etc. That's does not make the entire CCR illegal or unenforceable.
My experience serving on the HOA board was different. We NEVER had anyone ask to leave or had a buyer refuse to sign.

What we had was HUGE mess from the previous president who allowed his friends to build things (and him personally) that were in violation of the covenants with a "variance". The one building (garage) we turned down after we tried to clean the mess up, they not only threatened to get a lawyer, but did. Our lawyer told us that "variances" are not allowed in the contract law, especially when they were given by members of the board to themselves. They said that what ever variances are given become the defacto standard. The lawyer advised us to let him build what he wanted and pay his legal fees before it got more expensive for us.

Basically, what I learned is 2-5% of the people in the HOA complain (i think the filter would limit the word I could use) about EVERYTHING. The walk around the neighborhood and write down and photo EVERYTHING. Then come to HOA.

The best thing to do is tell them "thank you, we will take that under advisement" and not discuss it with them. Once you start playing their game, they just keep doing it.

But there is also about 2-5% of the homeowners that you spend 90% of the time dealing with.

My issue was that I opened my mouth about how much money they were spending and the errors in their budgets. They also didnt have proper accounting (money was missing) and I pointed that out. This was at the annual meeting (to approve budgets, elect members, etc). The president who had caused the problems (and couldnt explain where $25k was...it was missing buried in many different sheets that were to accounting standards) told me (in front of everyone) if I thought I could do better, then go for it. To my dismay, they didnt elect him...

Sometimes its better to keep your mouth shut...
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 08:52   #171
Kevin108
HADOKEN!
 
Kevin108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Portsmouth, VA
Posts: 6,943


Quote:
Originally Posted by gjk5 View Post
I wish it was not dark, I would take a picture right now to show you the difference between HOA and non-HOA.

I live in a small 'hood of nice newer homes on 3-5 acre lots, immediately north of us is an older 'hood with NO HOA. Half nice homes and half absolute crapshacks, the one directly behind me has 4 undtended Great Danes, 3 5th wheels, 3 corvettes in various stages of decay, a bradley GT that is 8-0% rust, several chodey Harleys, 4 "utility trailers" that all look like poop and assorted other white trash accoutrements scattered about the 5 acres.

You may have your opinions about HOA's, but some are good and some are bad, but one thing is a FACT: most people are inconsiderate lazy a-holes if left to thier own devices, and you cannot pick your neighbors. Better to have a set of rules to govern the place.
This has made me realize that HOA neighborhoods do have a use - it's where people like you need to live so the rest of us can reside in peace.
__________________
Kevin108.com | OpenCarry.org | VCDL.org

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a
little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
_____- Ben Franklin
Kevin108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 09:13   #172
tantrix
J'aimeLouisiane
 
tantrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Louisiana, CSA
Posts: 9,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin108 View Post
This has made me realize that HOA neighborhoods do have a use - it's where people like you need to live so the rest of us can reside in peace.


Last edited by tantrix; 10-15-2012 at 09:13..
tantrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 09:15   #173
MtBaldy
Obie Wan, RIP
 
MtBaldy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: At the beach
Posts: 15,946


Quote:
Originally Posted by .264 magnum View Post
Around here closing cannot be completed without signing HOA docs, no signature - no house.
This.

It's very simple. You won't sign the HOA agreement, you don't buy the house. That HOA agreement is a binding contract and just as relevant as all the other closing documents.
__________________
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury."
― Elmer T Peterson
MtBaldy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 09:19   #174
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,825
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtBaldy View Post
This.

It's very simple. You won't sign the HOA agreement, you don't buy the house. That HOA agreement is a binding contract and just as relevant as all the other closing documents.
I get that is how it generally works,but what legal principal allows me to sign a contract when I buy a house that is binding on the next buyer?

I just dont see the legal principla behind it (but I am also not a lawyer and specifically not a real estate lawyer)
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2012, 09:27   #175
Hailstorm
Boom Shacka
 
Hailstorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canton Mi
Posts: 5,569


What is really great is. Buy a house, not be told about there is a HOA. Then get a bill for back dues..... Yea, that didn't go over to well.

Been there a while, no real issues. Just yearly dues for snow removal.
__________________
Practice Random acts of Kindness
Hailstorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 20:07.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,448
445 Members
1,003 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42