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Old 10-13-2012, 14:24   #201
Foxtrotx1
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
It was legal, it went before the SCOTUS and the SCOTUS ruled it Constitutional.

in large part because the action was based on the Alien and sedition laws passed by the Founding Fathers in 1798. laws that were never struck down by any court.
Good point.

We know from slavery that legal isn't always right.
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Old 10-13-2012, 14:41   #202
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It was legal, it went before the SCOTUS and the SCOTUS ruled it Constitutional.

in large part because the action was based on the Alien and sedition laws passed by the Founding Fathers in 1798. laws that were never struck down by any court.
You are aware that the Alien and Sedition Acts made criticizing the government or certaan government officials a crime, right?

I think it is safe to say that Times v, Sullivan took care of that.
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Old 10-13-2012, 14:47   #203
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You are aware that the Alien and Sedition Acts made criticizing the government or certaan government officials a crime, right?

I think it is safe to say that Times v, Sullivan took care of that.
The alien and sedition Acts(s) (plural) were not one act but 4 or five separate acts.

But yes it would be more accurate to say none of the acts that made up the alien and sedition acts had been struck down by the courts at the time ( the Court decision you pointed to was 1964)
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Old 10-13-2012, 14:59   #204
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Not just japans action but also the actions of some Americans with Japanese ancestry. 5,620 of them renounced their U.S. citizenship when America declared war on Japan. 20,000 Japanese Americans living in Japan when the war broke out joined the Japanese war effort, some even joining the Japanese army. At least one Japanese american was prosecuted for war crimes for his participation in the Burma death march.

NO German Americans, Italian Americans or others renounced their citizenship during the war.
But some of them, even those in this country, committed treason.

Dragoon, the web site you have referred to is just not reliable. One example is this page:
http://www.foitimes.com/internment/Myths.htm


This page says that Japanese-Americans were not rounded up en masse. To support this, it uses WWII documents that count Japanese-aliens.

What Jacobs is doing is trying to prove apples with oranges.

This isn't a small error I'm talking about. It is misleading, and deliberate.
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Old 10-13-2012, 15:14   #205
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This page says that Japanese-Americans were not rounded up en masse. To support this, it uses WWII documents that count Japanese-aliens.
I am not entirely clear on wht you are saying. but lets start with this.

What evidence do you have that Japanese Americans (Citizens were rounded up en mass and forced into internment camps?

And you do know the difference between internment and relocation camps correct?
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Old 10-13-2012, 15:19   #206
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I've been working so many long hours...it sounds like a nice break. Meals, probably cable TV these days, exercise yard,...damn that sounds good right now.
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Old 10-13-2012, 15:28   #207
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
The alien and sedition Acts(s) (plural) were not one act but 4 or five separate acts.

But yes it would be more accurate to say none of the acts that made up the alien and sedition acts had been struck down by the courts at the time ( the Court decision you pointed to was 1964)
That is a fair point, but our back-and-forth on this is really moot since that particular act was time limited.

Even if Times v. Sullivan had been in 1934, it is often hard to say what statutes are also struck down by implication.

Still, the legality is dubious. A USSCt justice once said, "We aren't final because we are infallible; we're infallible because we're final."


Still, the motivations wasn't without racist sentiment.
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Old 10-13-2012, 15:37   #208
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That is a fair point, but our back-and-forth on this is really moot since that particular act was time limited.

Even if Times v. Sullivan had been in 1934, it is often hard to say what statutes are also struck down by implication.

Still, the legality is dubious. A USSCt justice once said, "We aren't final because we are infallible; we're infallible because we're final."


Still, the motivations wasn't without racist sentiment.
If a case comes before the supreme court challenging the constitutionality of a law or act and the Court rules the law or act Constitutional then it is constitutional and not "Dubious". at least until such time as that court or a future one reverses it.

I have little doubt Racism was involved, at the same time though having thousands of Japanese Americans petition to be able to renounce their citizenship and go to Japan is going to raise questions about the loyalty of Japanese Americans.

That did not IMO justify forcing Japanese Americans from their homes. or the other groups like German Americans or Italian Americans that were required to stay away from the coasts or at least away from shipping docks.
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Old 10-13-2012, 17:51   #209
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I'll bet you our internment camps where a lot better then the Japanese during WWII
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Old 10-13-2012, 18:29   #210
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I'll bet you our internment camps where a lot better then the Japanese during WWII
Did you read the thread?

Did the Japanese internment camps have mostly Japanese citizens in them?

Did the laws of Japan allow for such internment of its own citizens?
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Old 10-13-2012, 19:04   #211
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Because of all this we strip search 10 year old kids and let 20 somethings Arab men pass right through screenings. Some times the hard ugly choice is the right one to make.
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Old 10-13-2012, 20:46   #212
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Actually, they are very similar, indeed. They are all about authority, and very little about actual security.
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:59   #213
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I'll bet you our internment camps where a lot better then the Japanese during WWII
I don't want us to be a notch better than whatever monster we fight. I want us to be Americans. Respect rights and liberty. Respect individuals, not races. Let the focus be individual security over national security. Prefer 5 guilty escaped over 1 innocent imprisoned, If it destroys us, so be it. I would not sacrifice my family to save my own life, and I'd rather my country burn from enemy fire than be rotted from within by reactionary oppression borne of a fear of that fire.

Fiat justitia ruat caelum - let justice be done, though the heavens fall.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:52   #214
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What's the statute of limitations on my self loathing for past events? And since I'm white do I serve a longer term of self flagellation?

But, I'm only a 3rd generation American so can I get maybe a 50 or so years knocked off my sentence? Do I feel guilty for slavery even though my ancestors were not here at that time? Since my ancestors were Vikings and raped and pillaged for a little while do I need to geel guilty about that? Oh, it was raping and pillaging other white people so nevermind.

Can someone with expertise in professional indignation point out which events I should loath, how long I must prostrate myself for, and how much hand wringing I need to do to purge events from the past?

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Old 10-14-2012, 09:15   #215
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40 YEARS later...

You left that part out...
We NEVER got an apology over Pearl Harbor from the Japs.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:29   #216
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Your reply displays a stunning lack of understanding of the basic facts, and your reasoning is beyond poor.
And you're entitled to your ignorance.

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It doesn't matter that no one was killed or gassed there, or that the conditions were "relatively civilized," which is a dubious matter of opinion. The camp barracks were cramped, allowed for little privacy, and were not adequate for the weather.
They were adequate and better than some Americans lived in, certainly better than Japanese treated Americans.

It was war, get over it.

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The fact is, these US citizens, most of them born here, were arrested and deprived of liberty for years. They lost their businesses and property. How can you say that locking of an entire group of citizens based on their race was justified as "an abundance of caution?" It didn't happen to German-Americans or Italian-Americans.
Because the Japanese are one of the most racist societies on Earth, and certainly then marched in lockstep as far as unanimity of opinion where anyone not Japanese is an outsider and the high likelihood of sympathy for the home island put them at risk of acting for the Empire and being susceptible to propaganda.

German ancestry accounts for about 40% of the ancestry in the US. It would have been impractical. Further, the Japanese were more maniacal as a group. More recent German immigrants were watched, I have stories from my family here during the war about FBI surveillance.

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Y
Then you argue that they got an apology and compensation. Really? No, not really. Only the surviving prisoners got an apology half a century later, and the $20,000 along with it was a pittance for the lost property and the lost liberty.
They shouldn't have gotten anything. They were released and that was the end of it.

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You go on to mention the fanatical resistance which was expected if Japan had been invaded. That has no relevance at all at all to the subject, and cannot possibly be used as a justification for what was done to these US citizens. Why do you mention it?
Yes it was relevant and justified. The potential for reaction in subversive activities due to sentiment and allegiance to the Homeland were certainly a consideration.
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:41   #217
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This is to no one in particular, just a reply of thoughts.

Personal guilt has nothing to do with this. To liken this to feeling guilty over slavery is ignorance of the issue.

You don't have to feel personal guilt about slavery to know it is wrong and you would not do such a thing. Then again, some people would.

We are just recognizing a wrong.

People in prison TODAY are treated better than a lot of Americans, especially in this economy. Would you seriously use this as one of your excuses to arrest people for doing nothing wrong? Are you sure you love freedom as much as you claim?
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Old 10-14-2012, 13:08   #218
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This is to no one in particular, just a reply of thoughts.

Personal guilt has nothing to do with this. To liken this to feeling guilty over slavery is ignorance of the issue.

You don't have to feel personal guilt about slavery to know it is wrong and you would not do such a thing. Then again, some people would.

We are just recognizing a wrong.

People in prison TODAY are treated better than a lot of Americans, especially in this economy. Would you seriously use this as one of your excuses to arrest people for doing nothing wrong? Are you sure you love freedom as much as you claim?
What practical alternative would you have reccomended?
The way I understand it the majority of those Japanese were on our West Coast and the idea of an invasion was a possibility.
We will never know what would have or could have happened. Feeling bad about it solves nothing.
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Old 10-14-2012, 13:09   #219
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The whole world should feel guilty. It was an ugly time.
I wasn't alive at the time.....not even close, so no guilt felt here.
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Old 10-14-2012, 14:33   #220
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Out of all the things for citizens to feel guilty about, this is not one of them.
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Old 10-14-2012, 18:03   #221
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Different era, easy to second guess now and take the high ground about what occured. I for one won't.
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Old 10-14-2012, 18:18   #222
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We NEVER got an apology over Pearl Harbor from the Japs.
Why do we need one? It was a legit attack....
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Old 10-14-2012, 18:49   #223
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Why do we need one? It was a legit attack....
Really...do tell what unspeakable things we did to legitimize that attack?
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Old 10-14-2012, 19:32   #224
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I feel about as much pity for them as I do the folks we dropped the bomb on.
My Uncle told me about Kamakazee's hitting the Saratoga and how hard they fought to keep them back.
Read up on the stuff the Japanese walked away from after WWII and your pity might dwindle a bit.
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Old 10-14-2012, 19:40   #225
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Why do we need one? It was a legit attack....
Uhhh...legit in who's eyes? The Japanese, I am sure it was. Of course for those U.S. Sailors, Soldiers and Marines at Pearl that Sunday morning I wonder if they would agree. Again consider the time in history it occurred it was viewed as a sucker punch and not legit at all.
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