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Old 10-12-2012, 12:39   #151
frizz
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Originally Posted by SC Tiger View Post
That is irrelevant. The real questions are:

1) Were they capable of invading America (probably - they were at least as advanced technologically as we were, and we could have done it)
2) Did we have reason to believe they would invade America if they could (considering they "started the fight" then I would say the answer is yes).
I can't concur.

The answer to 1 is no because of geography. We have two ponds between the mainland and Asia and the mainland and Europe. Logistic realities protected us back then.

Britian was easy to slowly stage an invasion force to attack Europe. Similarly, the islands which

There is a chain of islands leading to Japan that allowed the "island hopping approach to gradually extend the supply chain, and jumping off to Japan proper would have been similar to the invasion of France.


For 2, the answer to number 1 renders this question moot.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:45   #152
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What many people don't know,there was a plan drawn up in Washington to do the same thing on the East coast with (citizens) of German and Italian decent.But I've read that some number crunchers in Washington figured out that if the Gov.,done that the US would have a tough time getting enough men for the Military since in WWII men of German and Italian decent made up almost 40% of the Military.
With the name German and German decent I suppose we here in West Central Ohio were probably looked at pretty close too for a time even though my oldest brother was in the 69th division in Europe.In desperate times people will do desperate things,hysteria.
I was in the Army with a Japanese guy in 62 who just hated living the barracks because it reminded him of living in the detention camp he was in when he was only about 5 or 6.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:56   #153
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I don't think I've ever in my entire life seen anyone try to defend the Japanese internment, but it doesn't surprise me one bit that the first time I do, its on GT.
Just goes to show you the Holocaust can happen again, I bet there are some that would defend it 40 years later too
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:59   #154
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Originally Posted by frizz View Post
I can't concur.

The answer to 1 is no because of geography. We have two ponds between the mainland and Asia and the mainland and Europe. Logistic realities protected us back then.

Britian was easy to slowly stage an invasion force to attack Europe. Similarly, the islands which

There is a chain of islands leading to Japan that allowed the "island hopping approach to gradually extend the supply chain, and jumping off to Japan proper would have been similar to the invasion of France.


For 2, the answer to number 1 renders this question moot.
You are not entirely correct on question 1. If Japan had gone North and across the Aleutian Islands, it is literally only a couple of miles between Asia and the closest island. My grandmother knew a gentleman that was stationed in that area and there was action there. In fact that is where the first flyable Zero was captured after an attack on Dutch Harbor (of "Deadliest Catch" fame).

From there you come down through Canada and guess where you wind up? I don't know if 1942 Japan could have done it, and I doubt 1942 United States knew either.

I do know there was a concern of an invasion from Japan. The fact that we likely did not fully understand their military capabilities has a lot to do with that.

BTW - the US also "relocated" the Aleut people before the Japanese got there.

On the east coast Germany operated U-boats just off the coast. Invading from U-boats would be a pretty hip trick but there was one of the major concern (probably on both coasts) - the loss of cargo ships. If the Germans or Japanese knew when a ship would be leaving port, that would be a major advantage. Remember the saying "Loose Lips Sink Ships"?
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Old 10-12-2012, 13:03   #155
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But did we know that at the time?

Perhaps I should have re-phrased the first question to "Did we believe they had the capability to invade America?"

People forget that you can't use information you discovered in 1945 to make decisions in 1941.
That's a fair question, and your point about people using new information to view and evaluate prior decisions is shamefully true.

To answer your question though, the military did not see it as an invasion as a possibility. It was not a cakewalk for us to get to Japan and Europe, and we had geography in our favor.
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Old 10-12-2012, 13:09   #156
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I currently live in Clinton MS. During WW2 there was a large camp for German POWs here.
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Old 10-12-2012, 13:41   #157
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You are not entirely correct on question 1. If Japan had gone North and across the Aleutian Islands, it is literally only a couple of miles between Asia and the closest island. My grandmother knew a gentleman that was stationed in that area and there was action there. In fact that is where the first flyable Zero was captured after an attack on Dutch Harbor (of "Deadliest Catch" fame).

From there you come down through Canada and guess where you wind up? I don't know if 1942 Japan could have done it, and I doubt 1942 United States knew either.

I do know there was a concern of an invasion from Japan. The fact that we likely did not fully understand their military capabilities has a lot to do with that.

BTW - the US also "relocated" the Aleut people before the Japanese got there.

On the east coast Germany operated U-boats just off the coast. Invading from U-boats would be a pretty hip trick but there was one of the major concern (probably on both coasts) - the loss of cargo ships. If the Germans or Japanese knew when a ship would be leaving port, that would be a major advantage. Remember the saying "Loose Lips Sink Ships"?
I don't see an Alutians to Canada to the US Pacific Northwest as possible. First, this is some rough country with a lot of narrow valleys that are a defender's dream.

The cold weather would tend to hinder offensive operations while aiding defensive operations. The summer weather turns the land into muck which also hinders offensive operations. Building the road from Seattle up the west coast of Canada to Alaska was a nightmare in the summer!

Then you have the most overlooked factor in warfare: the supply chain. Japan would have been at the end of hers, but the US would have no trouble sending troops, supplies and heavy equipment up there.

This also would make attacks into the Japanese rear area easy -- the "rear" would have extended from Japan to Alaska and down the western coast of Canada. Don't forget that Japan is poor in natural resources, and had a smaller population.


On the east coast, invasion by sub just ain't gonna happen even today let alone 65 years ago. Dropping of sabotage is all they can (and could back then) do.

The threat to shipping was, as you say the biggie. It took a while before the government forced coastal towns to stay unlit at night, and to use convoys to defend against subs, but they got it going after a while, and the hunters became the hunted. Oh, Didja know that we were at war with Germany in the North Atlantic well before December. Fair amount of naval action.


The Pentagon knew all of this, so they weren't too worried about invasion.

You probably know that even though he was central to planning it, Yamamoto knew that Pearl Harbor was a bad move, and he advised against it. Remember those prophetic words about six months of free reign in the Pacific? He got it to the day!
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Old 10-12-2012, 13:49   #158
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Because all Japs are alike? It doesn't matter if some of them are 'Muricans?

Too bad these people don't feel the same way about the Germans and the Italians. I'd hate to play the "race card", but could it be that the Germans and Italians were white?
Sometimes the race card is real. If it is, I don't have a problem with it being played.

Here, racial motives best explain the decision to imprison them. Japanese were not even allowed to enter the military except for the special regiment.
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Old 10-12-2012, 13:58   #159
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What many people don't know,there was a plan drawn up in Washington to do the same thing on the East coast with (citizens) of German and Italian decent.But I've read that some number crunchers in Washington figured out that if the Gov.,done that the US would have a tough time getting enough men for the Military since in WWII men of German and Italian decent made up almost 40% of the Military.
With the name German and German decent I suppose we here in West Central Ohio were probably looked at pretty close too for a time even though my oldest brother was in the 69th division in Europe.In desperate times people will do desperate things,hysteria.
I was in the Army with a Japanese guy in 62 who just hated living the barracks because it reminded him of living in the detention camp he was in when he was only about 5 or 6.
Think of the resource that those 100,000+ people were. What a waste! Think of the workers and the service-members that could have come from it. They were only 1% of the total population, but that's nothing to sneeze at. I think the Japanese were also more educated than average.
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Old 10-12-2012, 14:07   #160
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It didn't happen to German-Americans or Italian-Americans.
////////////snip//////////
The US invaded Italy and Germany, but again, German-Americans or Italian-Americans were not imprisoned as a matter of course.
Many German-Americans and Italian-Americans were detained and they never received $20,000.00 or any apology. There are endless resources where information on the topic can be found.

"A total of 11,507 Germans and German-Americans were interned during the war, accounting for 36% of the total internments under the Justice Department's Enemy Alien Control Program, but far less than the 110,000 Japanese-Americans interned. Such internments began with the detention of 1,260 Germans shortly after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Of the 254 persons evicted from coastal areas, the majority were German. In addition, over 4,500 ethnic Germans were brought to the U.S. from Latin America and similarly detained."
http://www.rtbot.net/German_American_internment

While the Japanese didn't invade the west coast of the U.S. mainland they did send mini-subs to the west coast and there still remains one that was sunk inside Long Beach Harbor to the best of my knowledge. They also shelled coastal installations from time to time and tried to interfere with coastal shipping.

My uncle was at Dutch Harbor Alaska and wrote in his diary about being bombed and strafed by Japanese planes daily until they finally got an airfield built and planes that could protect them. There also is information available about U.S. Citizens on both coasts watching from the shore as enemy ships fired upon coastal freighters and other targets.
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Old 10-12-2012, 14:13   #161
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Originally Posted by SC Tiger View Post
That is irrelevant. The real questions are:

1) Were they capable of invading America (probably - they were at least as advanced technologically as we were, and we could have done it)
Technology doesn't equate to logistics.

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2) Did we have reason to believe they would invade America if they could (considering they "started the fight" then I would say the answer is yes).
Why would we? You think that American strategists were that ignorant back then? That they didn't know the military cargo capabilities of the Axis?
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Old 10-12-2012, 15:15   #162
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Technology doesn't equate to logistics.



Why would we? You think that American strategists were that ignorant back then? That they didn't know the military cargo capabilities of the Axis?
They did not know about the Zero until it was attacking us.


Some of you are all butt-hurt and emotional about this but it was not racism, it was a National Security issue. Do you honestly think that the Gov took the time and effort while we were fighting a 2 front war, loosing big-time in the Pacific, to relocate 100,00+ people just because they were 'not white'?
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Old 10-12-2012, 16:03   #163
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I see the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth by folks that have bought the "Concentration camp spiel that the far left has been pushing for years.

There were two kinds of camps,

Internment- this was forcible internment of enemy aliens, that means NON citizens who were Japanese living in this country. that came to around 5,000 Japanese.

If the non citizen resident aliens had family who were American citizens they were NOT required to go to the camp with them. They could choose to go voluntarily but with the understanding that they would have to stay for the duration.

Relocation camps- no one was forced to go to the relocation camps. They did have to leave the west coast but they were free to go where they pleased. If they had nowhere to go then they could go to one of the relocation camps.

They were NOT required to stay and were free to leave whenever they chose.

The Japanese American association that fought the government on the relocation issue turned around and when the govt. decided to close the camps after the war tried to force the govt. to keep the camps OPEN.

while none of this was America's shining moment it was not the horror that the far left tried to paint it as for so many years.

Here is a good link for info on the relocation camps.

http://www.foitimes.com/internment/fallon2.htm
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Old 10-12-2012, 17:19   #164
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
Do you honestly think that the Gov took the time and effort while we were fighting a 2 front war, loosing big-time in the Pacific, to relocate 100,00+ people just because they were 'not white'?
Why not, the Nazis rounded up and killed "non-aryan"
people in death camps , even with the Red Army and the allies knocking at their door
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Old 10-12-2012, 18:15   #165
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....that was after your edit?!?!
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Old 10-12-2012, 18:35   #166
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I don't always think I've time traveled back to the 1820s, but when I do I'm on GT.

My god, the things I have seen defended on this forum. Slavery. Murder of abortion doctors. Disenfranchisement of people based on religion or sexual orientation. And now government-sanctioned camps justified by race. As has been pointed out before, German and Italian origin U.S. citizens faced no such treatment.

ALL countries face threats. All face war or terrorists or dissidents. What makes America different is that we try our best to maintain our values even in the worst times. Make no mistake. I don't care how gung-ho you are about the Second Amendment. If you feel the process-free robbery and imprisonment of United States citizens is acceptable under ANY context, you are an enemy of freedom.
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Old 10-12-2012, 18:41   #167
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I guess I'm an enemy of freedom then (not).

Your emotional outburst is touching but the realities of war and National Security dictated the actions. War is hell.
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Old 10-12-2012, 18:46   #168
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I guess I'm an enemy of freedom then (not).

Your emotional outburst is touching but the realities of war and National Security dictated the actions. War is hell.
Yes, believe it or not the destruction of human liberties makes me emotional. That must be because I'm a human being with a functioning brain and a basic working knowledge of history. Which normally wouldn't make me special at all but apparently makes me a minor diety on the bubbling pool of anti-intellectual digital tar that is a GT political/religious/human rights argument.

If we get to sacrifice basic liberty on the altar of national security and war, then we're no different than every other third-rate dictatorship in human history, and I will cheer our downfall the day liberty is an afterthought. Nazi Germany. Stalinist Russia. They justified their monstrosities exactly how you just justified ours. The vague, unclear destroyer of liberties that is the general notion of national security.

Those who would sacrifice essential liberty to procure a little temporary safety deserve neither. That Franklin quote applies to everyone, it isn't just a way to snark at the Brady people.
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Old 10-12-2012, 21:11   #169
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Why do you think/state she is a moron? (Michelle Malkin)

WW2 interment camps were as I have read mostly for US citizens of Japanese ancestry.The Italians and Germans were in some for them too, and I mostly mostly if not all, were POWs. Am I wrong?

That this travesty done to our citizens by our dear Democratic godlike worshipped leader Roosevelt and his government minions was done is a disgrace. This why the 2nd Amendment MUST always stand as it does today and not get watered down more.

Take my weapons when they want to take me (or you or your family members) just because of a racial characteristic, not ever again in my country!

Anyone who pushes for internment camps based upon race needs a butt stomping party on their behinds.

Last edited by Glockworks; 10-12-2012 at 21:13.. Reason: Jeez, I meant to include the person I was responding to.
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Old 10-12-2012, 21:22   #170
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
They did not know about the Zero until it was attacking us.


Some of you are all butt-hurt and emotional about this but it was not racism, it was a National Security issue. Do you honestly think that the Gov took the time and effort while we were fighting a 2 front war, loosing big-time in the Pacific, to relocate 100,00+ people just because they were 'not white'?
I do not remember the big roundup of Americans of German/Italian ancestry. Did I miss that in my reading of that time period?

Tell me you cannot see the racism here? It is water under a bridge, but to not learn from mistakes dooms some to repeat them. You (representing the government in any way) try to take my wife and children to a prison camp based upon nothing but her race and ...............................................

Can even the dimwits who think it was ok get it now?
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Old 10-12-2012, 21:31   #171
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Yes, believe it or not the destruction of human liberties makes me emotional. That must be because I'm a human being with a functioning brain and a basic working knowledge of history. Which normally wouldn't make me special at all but apparently makes me a minor diety on the bubbling pool of anti-intellectual digital tar that is a GT political/religious/human rights argument.

If we get to sacrifice basic liberty on the altar of national security and war, then we're no different than every other third-rate dictatorship in human history, and I will cheer our downfall the day liberty is an afterthought. Nazi Germany. Stalinist Russia. They justified their monstrosities exactly how you just justified ours. The vague, unclear destroyer of liberties that is the general notion of national security.

Those who would sacrifice essential liberty to procure a little temporary safety deserve neither. That Franklin quote applies to everyone, it isn't just a way to snark at the Brady people.
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Old 10-12-2012, 21:33   #172
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Why do you think/state she is a moron? (Michelle Malkin)
One of the reasons she is a moron is the fact that she defends the internment of Japanese-Americans in WWII.

Here is a link to her book.



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Old 10-12-2012, 21:40   #173
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One of the reasons she is a moron is the fact that she defends the internment of Japanese-Americans in WWII.

Here is a link to her book.

In Defense of Internment: The Case for Racial Profiling in World War II and the War on Terror: Michelle Malkin: 9780895260512: Amazon.com: [email]Books
I m a y b e can see based upon religion as that is a group that you choose to join, but never based upon race, I will look into what Michelle wrote to see if she might be wrong (IMO) on this issue. Thanks for the link.
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Old 10-12-2012, 21:44   #174
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[QUOTE=Bushflyr;19509012] Michelle Malkin is an utter moron.

Your brilliance has chased her off of Glock Talk.

I haven't seen her posts lately.
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Old 10-12-2012, 21:47   #175
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I wore the uniform of our great nation. I was born there. I plan to die there (I'm in Ireland today, is why I write "there" rather than "here").

If the government came to lock me and my family up and confiscated our property because I have yellow skin and slanty eyes, I would shoot whoever came for me. I'd like to think I'd do the same if they came for black people or brown people or white people or anyone else.

If I were still in uniform I'd refuse to carry out the order.

There are things that make America great, and "innocent until proven guilty" is one of the most important. Locking up American citizens because you think they *might* commit a crime is pretty much the most evil thing we have done in the last hundred years or so.

The fact that thousands of those citizens volunteered to serve in the Army out of those camps, knowing that their families were still locked up back home, and the fact that the 442 RCT was so highly decorated tells me that those men were better men than I and better Americans than you.
Speak for yourself only.

You neither have the moral clarity nor nor the right to speak for others.
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