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Old 10-17-2012, 10:43   #351
frizz
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Originally Posted by racerford View Post
Please show actual (not circumstantial)evidence that they were detained solely due to their ethnicity. Press releases contemporary to the time indicated that they went before a review board and detention was recommended or not. The fact that some were not detained is evidence that they were not detained solely due to their ethnicity. Otherwise ALL people of Japanese ethnicity would have been detained all over the country. That did not happen. Just maybe the actual detainees (not their dependents who they chose to stay with them) had some evidence they were involved with people suspected of acting or conspiring to act against the US. Have you considered that?

It is completely reprehensible that people would have lost their property without due process. I will point that more that a few innocent people have had their financial lives destroyed by arrests and charges that later they were cleared of. How many of them get compensation from the government?
It is well established that everyone with Japanese ancestry living in certain of the west coast got the boot. Making the argument that just because only those who were living in certain areas were affected means that it was not solely due their ancestry is equivocating.

As for the review boards, those were for Japanese non-citizens. These people are not a part of the discussion. Only the CITIZENS of Japanese extract are being discussed.

Since you do not understand this fact, your observations and opinions are of no value.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:46   #352
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Japanese is not a race.
You latch on to the tiniest perceived inaccuracy as if it makes a difference.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:56   #353
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Please show the evidence that 3rd generation (or their parants if they were minors) had no choice about where they went. 3rd generation means they were children of american citizens born in the US. Shows also their parents did nothing wrong (refused to sign a loyalty oath, had no suspicious activities).
I note that you are demanding proof of a negative. Fortunately, it is clear from the poster below that your implications are wrong.

You just don't know the basic facts. All people of Japanese ancestry were kicked out of their homes if they lived in certain areas.


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Old 10-17-2012, 11:00   #354
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Claiming that it is irrelevant which members of a certain group were or were not detained is irrelevant to the discussion when claims are being made about "All" and "entire" member of this class were affected is simply ludicrous.
That is specious. Saying that only 25% of a class were forced to move for no other reasons than where they lived and what their ancestry was makes no difference in the right or wrong of the act.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:04   #355
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You are overlooking the fact that a great many of the Japanese Americans were the offspring of those Japanese Nationals. Those Japanese immigrants were not eligible for American citizenship. Only their offspring were American citizens.

So yes they are connected.
There may be a connection, but the page purports to disprove treatment of one class (citizens) by using data about another class (non-citizens/enemy aliens.)
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:14   #356
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There may be a connection, but the page purports to disprove treatment of one class (citizens) by using data about another class (non-citizens/enemy aliens.)

It also assumes that those legally immigrated first-generation Japanese did not want to be American citizens. As noted, due to "Yellow Peril" laws of the early part of the century, they were forbidden from being U.S. citizens. That is another big distinction.


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Old 10-17-2012, 11:24   #357
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That is specious. Saying that only 25% of a class were forced to move for no other reasons than where they lived and what their ancestry was makes no difference in the right or wrong of the act.
You either don't understand the post or you are being evasive. you quote my posts in regards to claims by other posters that "An entire class", "ALL Japanese Americans" were imprisoned solely because of their ancestry.

My self and others have pointed out that it was not an entire class and not ALL Japanese Americans were imprisoned.

It's about accuracy of facts and not how you feel about something.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:37   #358
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It also assumes that those legally immigrated first-generation Japanese did not want to be American citizens. As noted, due to "Yellow Peril" laws of the early part of the century, they were forbidden from being U.S. citizens. That is another big distinction.


.
Ummm NO, They were forbidden to become naturalized citizens by our FOUNDING FATHERS in 1790. The FF restricted naturalization to "Free White persons".

In the early 1900's there was a great deal of State legislation that affected Japanese immigrants, particularly in California which passed anti Japanese immigrant legislation prohibiting them from owning or even leasing land.

Dues to pressure from state like California the U.S. congress ended Japanese immigration altogether in 1924.

One of the biggest indicators of how these Japanese immigrants viewed their new home is the fact that given they were Japanese Nationals they COULD have given their offspring Dual citizenship they would have been both Americans and Japanese. All the would have had to do was go to the nearest Japanese consulate to do so.

The historical record shows that very few did so.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:44   #359
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Ummm NO, They were forbidden to become naturalized citizens by our FOUNDING FATHERS in 1790. The FF restricted naturalization to "Free White persons".

In the early 1900's there was a great deal of State legislation that affected Japanese immigrants, particularly in California which passed anti Japanese immigrant legislation prohibiting them from owning or even leasing land.

Dues to pressure from state like California the U.S. congress ended Japanese immigration altogether in 1924.
I stand corrected on the first point -- it is the legislation of 1924 to which I was referring. The greater point is still that there can be no correlation made between the fact that first generation Japanese immigrants were not U.S. citizens, and that they therefore held loyalty to any nation other than their adopted one (as their offspring demonstrated with the shedding of much blood, as did many fine Americans of all ethnicities and heritages).

ETA: Thank you for adding that additional paragraph after I posted. That also raises an excellent point.


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Old 10-17-2012, 15:48   #360
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The biggest myth of WWII internment is that only Japanese were interred. They were by far the largest group but not the only ones by any means.
You sir, are correct.
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Old 10-17-2012, 18:25   #361
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What winning the war has to do with it ?

Had Nazis won. you'd say their methods were good and moral ?

Besides, imprisoning US citizens that committed no crime had absolutely zero impact on the way the war turned out.

And Draft is different. It's a legal requirement that equally applied to every citizen - with some legally defined exceptions - and it's not un-Constitutional. No different than criminal code that we all need to obey.
Simply not true, where in the Constitution does it mention the draft?
You see when you use the Constitution as the basis for not using internment camps then you have to use the same Constitution to show me where a draft is legal.
You cant, because it isnt there.
But you can say a draft was legal, and you can say the camps were legal also.
Your arguement falls apart there if you want to use a Constitutional basis. What may be legal may not be Constitutional, the law hasn't been challanged yet.

You didn't comprehend my post. There is a big difference between hardships as the natural result of a war, and artificial hardships created for no valid reason.

No, you dont comprehend that for all sacrifices are hardships, In WWII more than one person had to make a sacrifice and sacrifice they all did.
Like it or not FDR made that decison based upon the reality of the time and the information he had available.
Just like the kid pulled off the farm against his will to go fight in a War he didn't want to participate in; the Japanese people in certain locations were moved off their property and relocated and it was against their will, the same as it was for that hypothetical farm boy.
Now, if you can see they both have freedom and the desire not to go do something the Government tells them to, how is it different?

You also make the unsupported assumption that imprisoning these citizens was necessary for victory.

No, FDR made that assumption and then came to a decsion, I just support what he did because.
A) I can only trust that he had more information at the time, showing a danger if those people were left in that location. That decsion was based upon information available at the time, not a decsion made today or with the information we have today.
B) In the end you will never know just how many of those people really were agents,or would have changed their alliance had the war gone a bit differently, most all of that information is a guess or would have died at the end of the War.
C) Second guessing history is easy in this information age, but stepping up and making a hard decsion right or wrong is Leadership and that was what was called for.

Explain to me how this is any different than some goat herder getting rounded up and sent to Guantanamo because he happened to be delivering some Mutton to Jihad Johnny when the S.F. Guys showed up?

Other than being sorry it happened, appologising and handing over a buckets of cash; all of which we have done, what can you do?
I got an idea lets hate America. No thanks, but you feel free to.

Last edited by Averageman; 10-17-2012 at 18:50..
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Old 10-17-2012, 22:13   #362
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The efforts to provide apology for one of the most egregious violations of the Constitution is interesting indeed. Are you suggesting that "probable cause" was found for some 110,000 Americans living on the West Coast?

FDR's Executive Order 9066 is pretty emphatic:


Compensation on fractions of the dollar over the course of some 45 years later? Please don't be insulting. The money was largely irrelevant, and only served as tangible admission by the U.S. government that it had done wrong.


.
The FDR EO made no mention of race, ethnicity, or national origin. They could have made anybody move. And apparently they did move more than Japanese Americans.

I never said they got just compensation. However it was a lot more than many other innocent people got.

You still have shown nothing that indicates they had no evidence on any of the people sent to camps.

The compensation is only evidence that white guilt runs deep. I however, do feel guilty for something I had no part of. Do you say in this case that the sins of our fathers should rain down on us, but it was wrong for it to happen to the Japanese Americans. Which is it? If it is wrong in wrong in one case it is wrong in the other. I am glad that they only gave it to people that were actually in the camps. Again I state it is reprehensible that people should have their property taken without due process or just compensation. And I don't limit it to this circumstance.
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Old 10-17-2012, 22:21   #363
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So we imprisioned American Citzens based on National Origin. Because that makes it soo much better
Words have meaning.

What number of naturalized citizens were in camps, that were not dependents of Japanese nationals? I haven't seen the numbers on that, have you. How do you know there was not adverse evidence against them? You don't.

If they are actually Japanese nationals, then yes they can have their immigration status changed on a whim and be detain or deported. That is the reality for immigrants. In time of war deporting potential combatants back to their country is likely foolish and letting them wander around to spy on military bases and war production factories is likely foolish as well.
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Old 10-17-2012, 22:24   #364
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It is well established that everyone with Japanese ancestry living in certain of the west coast got the boot. Making the argument that just because only those who were living in certain areas were affected means that it was not solely due their ancestry is equivocating.

As for the review boards, those were for Japanese non-citizens. These people are not a part of the discussion. Only the CITIZENS of Japanese extract are being discussed.

Since you do not understand this fact, your observations and opinions are of no value.
They were directed to leave, not detained.

Did you know you could be put in jail for not following an evacuation order? You can be physically forced to leave your home?
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Old 10-17-2012, 22:43   #365
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I note that you are demanding proof of a negative. Fortunately, it is clear from the poster below that your implications are wrong.

You just don't know the basic facts. All people of Japanese ancestry were kicked out of their homes if they lived in certain areas.


The Okie Corral
This only say they have to leave the area. It says nothing of being detained. It doesn't make it right, but it was legal. Did you know they offered them a place to stay?

Did you know that many companies were forced to produce war goods? They had their factories taken over. Heck even IBM made rifles.

Again their property should not have been confiscated, if it was.

Again my point is it was not racism; words have meaning. Otherwise, it would be OK to say if you beat up a gay guy because he gay was, that it was all about racism.

I have yet see strong evidence that American Citizens of Japanese descent we detained solely due to their race or even ancestry. It appears the vast a majority were likely dependents of aliens that a choice made by their guardians that they would stay in the camps with them.

I personally do not feel weirded out, or guilty about driving past internment or relocation camps from WWII. I have no reason to, as I had nothing to do with what happened. I wasn't born, and I refused to feel guilt for the sins of my father or grandfather, or more precisely the fathers or grandfathers of people I don't even know. Feel free to do so if you want to.
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:57   #366
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This only say they have to leave the area. It says nothing of being detained. It doesn't make it right, but it was legal. Did you know they offered them a place to stay?

Did you know that many companies were forced to produce war goods? They had their factories taken over. Heck even IBM made rifles.

Again their property should not have been confiscated, if it was.

Again my point is it was not racism; words have meaning. Otherwise, it would be OK to say if you beat up a gay guy because he gay was, that it was all about racism.

I have yet see strong evidence that American Citizens of Japanese descent we detained solely due to their race or even ancestry. It appears the vast a majority were likely dependents of aliens that a choice made by their guardians that they would stay in the camps with them.

I personally do not feel weirded out, or guilty about driving past internment or relocation camps from WWII. I have no reason to, as I had nothing to do with what happened. I wasn't born, and I refused to feel guilt for the sins of my father or grandfather, or more precisely the fathers or grandfathers of people I don't even know. Feel free to do so if you want to.
Leave the area. Where are they going to go? Their houses are not an option, and they have lost their jobs and businesses.

You put forth the unsupported argument that this was not based on race, despite the fact that the restrictions applied to citizens of Japanese ancestry only. The fact that it was limited to certain areas does not change this fact.

The comparison to making various companies produce war goods is not valid because being kicked out of your home simply because of where your grandparents were born is no comparison.

Whether or not you should feel guilty is not my argument, and you have no reason to assert otherwise. I do not feel guilty since I didn't cause this, but it does concern me because the same arguments are being used to justify frightening actions that our government has taken in the war on terror.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:02   #367
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They were directed to leave, not detained.

Did you know you could be put in jail for not following an evacuation order? You can be physically forced to leave your home?
I'm well aware of that. Imposing these restrictions on US citizens solely on their ancestry was and is wrong. It is dangerous to allow this power.

Being ordered to leave the place where you live and work left these people without any viable option but to go to live behind barbed wire, under guard. Even if they were allowed to leave at will, where were they going to go, and how were they going to get there from an isolated camp?
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:57   #368
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Simply not true, where in the Constitution does it mention the draft?
You see when you use the Constitution as the basis for not using internment camps then you have to use the same Constitution to show me where a draft is legal.
You cant, because it isnt there.
But you can say a draft was legal, and you can say the camps were legal also.
Your arguement falls apart there if you want to use a Constitutional basis. What may be legal may not be Constitutional, the law hasn't been challanged yet.

You didn't comprehend my post. There is a big difference between hardships as the natural result of a war, and artificial hardships created for no valid reason.

No, you dont comprehend that for all sacrifices are hardships, In WWII more than one person had to make a sacrifice and sacrifice they all did.
Like it or not FDR made that decison based upon the reality of the time and the information he had available.
Just like the kid pulled off the farm against his will to go fight in a War he didn't want to participate in; the Japanese people in certain locations were moved off their property and relocated and it was against their will, the same as it was for that hypothetical farm boy.
Now, if you can see they both have freedom and the desire not to go do something the Government tells them to, how is it different?

You also make the unsupported assumption that imprisoning these citizens was necessary for victory.

No, FDR made that assumption and then came to a decsion, I just support what he did because.
A) I can only trust that he had more information at the time, showing a danger if those people were left in that location. That decsion was based upon information available at the time, not a decsion made today or with the information we have today.
B) In the end you will never know just how many of those people really were agents,or would have changed their alliance had the war gone a bit differently, most all of that information is a guess or would have died at the end of the War.
C) Second guessing history is easy in this information age, but stepping up and making a hard decsion right or wrong is Leadership and that was what was called for.

Explain to me how this is any different than some goat herder getting rounded up and sent to Guantanamo because he happened to be delivering some Mutton to Jihad Johnny when the S.F. Guys showed up?

Other than being sorry it happened, appologising and handing over a buckets of cash; all of which we have done, what can you do?
I got an idea lets hate America. No thanks, but you feel free to.
Oh, because I think AMERICAN CITIZENS were treated horribly, that makes me hate my country??? You have said some damn foolish and outright stupid things, but that takes the cake.

You first centered your arguments for the treatment on what a foreign nation did. When you I owned you on that, you switched to some foolishness about the difficulties others went through, never mind the fact that that is not a justification to deliberately wrong someone else.

Now that you have been called on that stupidity, you accuse me of be anti-American. That is just as foolish, and you slide further down the hole of stupidity.

Take a hike, son. Take a hike.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:17   #369
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The FDR EO made no mention of race, ethnicity, or national origin. They could have made anybody move. And apparently they did move more than Japanese Americans.
As frizz notes in that famous poster from 1942, Japanese Americans certainly were targeted for their ancestry. Your blindness to that fact doesn't make it any less true.

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I never said they got just compensation. However it was a lot more than many other innocent people got.
Again, the minimal compensation is largely irrelevant other than to serve as tangible admission by the FedGov that they did wrong.

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You still have shown nothing that indicates they had no evidence on any of the people sent to camps.
While in the "relocation centers," and once the decision was made to open up military service to Japanese Americans because -- golly gee, maybe they were simply loyal Americans after all -- the U.S. government issued a document they would first have to sign stating that they would "forswear all allegiance to the Emperor of Japan." This left the J-A's in a quandary -- they feared that signing such a document would constitute some sort of admission that they had any loyalty to the emperor in the first place. A huge debate ensued with the J-A's in the compounds as to whether they should sign the document. Finally, the vast majority of them decided to sign, to give them an opportunity to "prove" themselves as loyal Americans. Clearly, the government would not have issued such a document if they had a clear sense as to who posed a legitimate threat or not. They were just doing a shotgun detention of a selected demographic based solely on their ancestry.

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The compensation is only evidence that white guilt runs deep. I however, do feel guilty for something I had no part of. Do you say in this case that the sins of our fathers should rain down on us, but it was wrong for it to happen to the Japanese Americans. Which is it? If it is wrong in wrong in one case it is wrong in the other.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I am pointing out an egregious violation of the Constitution that was perpetrated by a leftist president in the course of this nation's history. Certainly, other such violations of the Constitution have occurred, and none of them should be condoned, and they should all be remembered as a lesson to us to remain eternally vigilant in defense of our liberties.

What I don't like is the hypocrisy of some who make the Second Amendment a battle cry for the Constitution, but who blithely ignore the Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments when it serves their prejudicial or other convenient interests. I also don't want to hear any outcry from folks who consider Lincoln a tyrant for revoking the writ of habeas corpus when it affected a cause they hold dear, but would excuse the same action carried out against a segment of society that evidently didn't mean as much to them.

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Again I state it is reprehensible that people should have their property taken without due process or just compensation.

And I don't limit it to this circumstance.
I don't either -- I don't know why you think I do.


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Old 10-18-2012, 08:09   #370
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Leave the area. Where are they going to go? Their houses are not an option, and they have lost their jobs and businesses.

You put forth the unsupported argument that this was not based on race, despite the fact that the restrictions applied to citizens of Japanese ancestry only. The fact that it was limited to certain areas does not change this fact.

The comparison to making various companies produce war goods is not valid because being kicked out of your home simply because of where your grandparents were born is no comparison.

Whether or not you should feel guilty is not my argument, and you have no reason to assert otherwise. I do not feel guilty since I didn't cause this, but it does concern me because the same arguments are being used to justify frightening actions that our government has taken in the war on terror.
You keep going back to race. Japanese Ancestry is not RACE, words have meaning. I hate the continuous race baiting. It is not about race. It is not about race. It is not about race. Have I made my point yet.

If it was solely about race, all "mongoloids" across the country would have been interned. They weren't. So there must have been other factors. Like where they were located. Like some evidence that their associations that made officials suspect their activities.

Was it Americas finest hour? No. Was it America's worst hour? Not by a long shot. Should it ever happen again? No. Could it happen again? Yes, provisions of the "Patriot Act" allow it. Provisions of the "RICO" laws allow property to be seized without due process and the owners being charged and convicted of a crime, and people have to sue and prove a negative (that it was not gained as a result of a crime they have not done and/or been convicted of).

I still haven't seen any evidence that US Citizens of Japanese ancestry were interned, that weren't there because they were dependents of aliens. Were there US citizens of Japanese ancestry that ended up in relocation camps, sure but that was voluntary to stay in the camp. Was it reprehensible that they were force to leave their homes due to their ancestry? Yes. If they had forced all people out of exclusionary zones (as the EO allowed) would it have been better? Maybe you and some of the others think that would have made it OK. It would not have made it better for those people, it would have only made it worse for more people. That is the Liberal ideal of equality.

It was not about race. It did not happen just those of Japanese ancestry. It did not happen SOLELY due to race or ancestry. Words have meaning.

I am sick of people making things about race that are not about race. It happens every day in the news. It is disgusting and diminishes real problems that are about race.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:53   #371
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Internment did not start with WWII. there was internment of German Nationals and even German Americans during WWI.

Many First generation German Americans had restrictions placed on them like requiring them to register and to stay out of exclusionary zones.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:59   #372
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Internment did not start with WWII. there was internment of German Nationals and even German Americans during WWI.

Many First generation German Americans had restrictions placed on them like requiring them to register and to stay out of exclusionary zones.

Took place during the reign of yet another leftist president...Figures...


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Old 10-18-2012, 18:34   #373
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Oh, because I think AMERICAN CITIZENS were treated horribly, that makes me hate my country??? You have said some damn foolish and outright stupid things, but that takes the cake.

You first centered your arguments for the treatment on what a foreign nation did. When you I owned you on that, you switched to some foolishness about the difficulties others went through, never mind the fact that that is not a justification to deliberately wrong someone else.

Now that you have been called on that stupidity, you accuse me of be anti-American. That is just as foolish, and you slide further down the hole of stupidity.

Take a hike, son. Take a hike.
No again all Americans made a sacrifice, why would Japanese Americans and non Citizens of Japanese heritage living in stratigic positions allowed to stay there?
Is that not an equal sacrifice?
I would imagine that sacrifice is what it is, sacrifice; one no more noble than the next. How are the Japanese more noble than the Man who left his job to go fight in a War he didnt care to participate in?
History is what it is, History.
You cannot change it and second guessing it only adds hate to America and the decisons made at the time.
Son? hahahahahah!

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Old 10-18-2012, 18:54   #374
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Posts: 2,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by frizz View Post
Oh, because I think AMERICAN CITIZENS were treated horribly, that makes me hate my country??? You have said some damn foolish and outright stupid things, but that takes the cake.

You first centered your arguments for the treatment on what a foreign nation did. When you I owned you on that, you switched to some foolishness about the difficulties others went through, never mind the fact that that is not a justification to deliberately wrong someone else.

Now that you have been called on that stupidity, you accuse me of be anti-American. That is just as foolish, and you slide further down the hole of stupidity.

Take a hike, son. Take a hike.
Oh and by the way you can be sure I'm much too old to be your Son and much too educated to call you my Kin.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:51   #375
frizz
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Averageman View Post
No again all Americans made a sacrifice, why would Japanese Americans and non Citizens of Japanese heritage living in stratigic positions allowed to stay there?
Is that not an equal sacrifice?
I would imagine that sacrifice is what it is, sacrifice; one no more noble than the next. How are the Japanese more noble than the Man who left his job to go fight in a War he didnt care to participate in?
History is what it is, History.
You cannot change it and second guessing it only adds hate to America and the decisons made at the time.
Son? hahahahahah!
You are a broken record of flawed reasoning. You repeat yourself, and fail to get it. You can make a strawman about me claiming that the Japanese-Americans were somehow "more noble" all you want, but remember that a strawman is desperate and dishonest.

But you tried the "you-hate-America" bit, so more dishonesty isn't a surprise.

I do not try to change the past, and you are being dishonest by saying that I am. Now you come up with even more foolishness by saying that I am adding hate to America.

I suppose you think we should just keep quiet about errors of the past so that we can repeat them. Exposing our own soldiers to nuclear blasts to see what it does to them? No problem. CIA slipping LSD mickeys into American's drinks to see what it does to them? Hey... Consider the times.
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