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Old 10-17-2012, 00:42   #326
frizz
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Not an entire class, more accurately a specific class of people living in specific areas. (exclusionary zones).
That's a class of people defined by national origin and place of residence. This is stepping into muddy definitions of words.

And I think you will agree, is not particularly, if at all, related to the issue.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:19   #327
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
They were, there were many arrests of Germans and Italians.

some 418 Italians were interred and some 11,500 Germans were interred.

The biggest myth of WWII internment is that only Japanese were interred. They were by far the largest group but not the only ones by any means.
How many of these Italians and Germans were US born US Citizens not caught doing something bad ?

It's scary how many people on this board don't seem to see the difference between a Citizen and Alien of same ethnic origin.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:22   #328
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Originally Posted by frizz View Post
"Felt persecuted"???? Jesus Christ on a cracker....

THEY WERE IMPRISONED!


And for no other reason than where their grandparents were born. Even if the camps had been resorts, they were still prisons.
So again, how was it different than Drafting someone who didn't want to leave home?
They were taken against their will and by your definition IMPRISIONED.
It was WWII lots of folks had to do things they didnt want to, lots of folks faced hardship and danger, a small segment of the Japanese went to relocation camps.
Oh and by the way we Won the War and what was that worth to you?
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:24   #329
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
poor


...as you are not taking the National Security threat at the time into consideration.

How would you have delt with the National Security threat posed by the Japanese-American residents on the West Coast??
Same way I deal with the National Security threat posed by gun nuts claiming they have some stupid rights protected by the 2nd Amendment. Since a large percentage of violent crimes is committed by people owning guns, then all gun owners are potential criminals and must be disarmed. /sarcasm/

See the parallel here ?

An American Citizen of any origin shouldn't be denied their Constitutional rights and persecuted just on the basis of their origin. It's pure and simple and written into Constitution. What Roosevelt did in the '40s to the American Citizens of Japanese origin was illegal and racist. Period.

Last edited by Ummagumma; 10-17-2012 at 06:35..
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:25   #330
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So again, how was it different than Drafting someone who didn't want to leave home?
They were taken against their will and by your definition IMPRISIONED.
It was WWII lots of folks had to do things they didnt want to, lots of folks faced hardship and danger, a small segment of the Japanese went to relocation camps.
Oh and by the way we Won the War and what was that worth to you?
What winning the war has to do with it ?

Had Nazis won. you'd say their methods were good and moral ?

Besides, imprisoning US citizens that committed no crime had absolutely zero impact on the way the war turned out.

And Draft is different. It's a legal requirement that equally applied to every citizen - with some legally defined exceptions - and it's not un-Constitutional. No different than criminal code that we all need to obey.

Last edited by Ummagumma; 10-17-2012 at 06:27..
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:32   #331
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Denying American citizens their Constitutionally guaranteed rights is the greatest threat to national security that there is.
Finally I get to agree with something you said
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:50   #332
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I wonder how many people would come out and say in public on record that the internment of American citizens was right or do they prefer to hide behind a computer screen.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:49   #333
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Originally Posted by frizz View Post
Could have? Nothing more than speculation.

No threat? No such thing, proven by the treason committed by German-Americans and Italian-Americans.

Just because of race? That's is exactly what happened.
Japanese is not a race.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:53   #334
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Originally Posted by frizz View Post
No distinction was made among 1st gen, 2nd gen, 3rd gen, and so on.

The 3rd gen were painted with the same brush as the 1st gen.
Please show the evidence that 3rd generation (or their parants if they were minors) had no choice about where they went. 3rd generation means they were children of american citizens born in the US. Shows also their parents did nothing wrong (refused to sign a loyalty oath, had no suspicious activities).
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:56   #335
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Originally Posted by racerford View Post
Japanese is not a race.
So we imprisioned American Citzens based on National Origin. Because that makes it soo much better
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:00   #336
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
......
Besides, imprisoning US citizens that committed no crime had absolutely zero impact on the way the war turned out.

........
Innocent American Citizens are legally confined every day in this country. Almost all are eventually set free, it is a natural part of our legal system. These people we confined a bit longer due to the circumstances of war, all that were cleared of wrong doing were released.

Can you show us a court case contemporary to the period that ruled the confinement illegal?
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:12   #337
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That is unfortunate for the Japanese Americans who were imprisoned, but at the time, it was believed to be necessary enough to go through the trouble. At least they didn't have to fight their way to Berlin.
The fact is that 14,000 Japanese-Americans served in Europe, mostly with the 442nd Regimental Combat Team. The unit suffered about 300 percent casualties in the course of becoming the most decorated unit in the history of the U.S. military.

Another 6,000 Japanese-Americans served in the Pacific. Their records were sealed for 50 years due to intelligence restrictions, so we didn't hear a whole lot about them.


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Old 10-17-2012, 08:12   #338
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Originally Posted by frizz View Post
No distinction was made among 1st gen, 2nd gen, 3rd gen, and so on.

The 3rd gen were painted with the same brush as the 1st gen.
On the contrary a distinction was made.

Japanese Nationals were detained. Their american born spouses and/or Children born here were given the choice to go or not go with their detained relative. (Unless they had not left the exclusionary zones when told to then the Japanese Americans were detained as well.)

Those who went to the camps who were american citizens ( not those who went to the detention camps with their non citizen relatives) were able to leave the camps if they chose to . Many did not for two reasons, first, they had no where to go and no means to start over. Second they knew the hostility they faced trying to relocate outside of the camps.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:16   #339
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Originally Posted by frizz View Post
That's a class of people defined by national origin and place of residence. This is stepping into muddy definitions of words.

And I think you will agree, is not particularly, if at all, related to the issue.
Claiming that it is irrelevant which members of a certain group were or were not detained is irrelevant to the discussion when claims are being made about "All" and "entire" member of this class were affected is simply ludicrous.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:18   #340
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
How many of these Italians and Germans were US born US Citizens not caught doing something bad ?

It's scary how many people on this board don't seem to see the difference between a Citizen and Alien of same ethnic origin.
That I have yet to see. Only info I have seen so far says that indeed there were German Americans and Italian Americans put in camps. But since no fuss was made about them detailed info is hard to come by. Both groups also had large numbers that were excluded from designated exclusionary zones.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:19   #341
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Gone after the PROVEN threats.
Impossible given what was going on at the time. A real threat existed and was delt with accordingly.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:19   #342
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There's nothing creepy about them. No one was executed or gassed there. The internees were held there in relatively civilized conditions out of an abundance of caution and released after the war ended. They later were apologized to and compensated.
To the tune of $20,000 per each surviving member of an internment camp. This could hardly pay for all the damage suffered (loss and confiscation of property), but the J-A community basically just wanted a tangible admission by the U.S. government that it had done wrong. But I'm glad it was a man like Ronald Reagan who finally signed off on such a bill. It took a leftist like FDR to perpetrate the abominable act, and a conservative like Reagan tried to make it right.

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During the war, every single japanese in the homeland were dedicated to hating and killing Americans. If Operation Olympic had commenced, 100% resistance was expected, why the a-bomb was used.
As noted by others -- let's not conflate Japanese citizens of the Japanese Empire with U.S. citizens of Japanese ancestry.


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Old 10-17-2012, 08:24   #343
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Could have? Nothing more than speculation.



Just because of race? That's is exactly what happened.

Speculation is all you have when you are losing a war and there is a threat. You have no concept of History and are truly a bleeding heart on this issue.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:26   #344
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Originally Posted by raven11 View Post
I wonder how many people would come out and say in public on record that the internment of American citizens was right or do they prefer to hide behind a computer screen.



I would. I have family that delt with both sides of the issue at the time.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:35   #345
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Just to stay consistent with one's adherence to the Constitution -- maybe we can reach an agreement that anyone who feels the U.S. government has the right to detain you without due process, due to your ethnicity, also has the right to deprive you of your Second Amendment right to the possession of firearms for whatever reason it deems "appropriate."

Maybe we can further agree that those who believe the above will no longer talk about Abraham Lincoln being a tyrant for revoking the writ of habeas corpus.


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Last edited by JFrame; 10-17-2012 at 09:06.. Reason: typo
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:53   #346
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Wow, collectivists and statists really show their true colors in this thread. Keep promoting imprisoning people due to crimes committed by unrelated people of the same national origin.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:58   #347
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Originally Posted by JFrame View Post
Just to stay consistent with one's adherence to the Constitution -- maybe we can reach an agreement that anyone who feels the U.S. government has the right to detain you without due process, due to your ethnicity, also has the right to deprive you of your Second Amendment right to the possession of firearms for whatever reason it deems "appropriate."

Maybe we can further agree that those who believe the above will no longer talk about Abraham Lincoln being a tyrant for revoking the writ of habeas corpus.


.
Please show actual (not circumstantial)evidence that they were detained solely due to their ethnicity. Press releases contemporary to the time indicated that they went before a review board and detention was recommended or not. The fact that some were not detained is evidence that they were not detained solely due to their ethnicity. Otherwise ALL people of Japanese ethnicity would have been detained all over the country. That did not happen. Just maybe the actual detainees (not their dependents who they chose to stay with them) had some evidence they were involved with people suspected of acting or conspiring to act against the US. Have you considered that?

It is completely reprehensible that people would have lost their property without due process. I will point that more that a few innocent people have had their financial lives destroyed by arrests and charges that later they were cleared of. How many of them get compensation from the government?
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:12   #348
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Originally Posted by Averageman View Post
So again, how was it different than Drafting someone who didn't want to leave home?
They were taken against their will and by your definition IMPRISIONED.
It was WWII lots of folks had to do things they didnt want to, lots of folks faced hardship and danger, a small segment of the Japanese went to relocation camps.
Oh and by the way we Won the War and what was that worth to you?
You didn't comprehend my post. There is a big difference between hardships as the natural result of a war, and artificial hardships created for no valid reason.

You also make the unsupported assumption that imprisoning these citizens was necessary for victory.

You jump from place to place. First you justify it because of what a foreign country did. Then you justified it because other people sacrificed and suffered, and you continue to do it.

Now you imply that we would have lost the war had these citizens not been held captive. You keep moving the goalposts, and you keep getting owned. Why? Because what was done to them was wrong.



And I note that you are trying to be slick. You said that the Japanese-Americans "felt persecuted" as though it was just a perception, when it is an undeniable fact. They were US citizens, but they were treated like enemies for no other reason than their national origin, and that is what persecution is.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:16   #349
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Please show actual (not circumstantial)evidence that they were detained solely due to their ethnicity. Press releases contemporary to the time indicated that they went before a review board and detention was recommended or not. The fact that some were not detained is evidence that they were not detained solely due to their ethnicity. Otherwise ALL people of Japanese ethnicity would have been detained all over the country. That did not happen. Just maybe the actual detainees (not their dependents who they chose to stay with them) had some evidence they were involved with people suspected of acting or conspiring to act against the US. Have you considered that?
The efforts to provide apology for one of the most egregious violations of the Constitution is interesting indeed. Are you suggesting that "probable cause" was found for some 110,000 Americans living on the West Coast?

FDR's Executive Order 9066 is pretty emphatic:

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Executive Order No. 9066
The President
Executive Order
Authorizing the Secretary of War to Prescribe Military Areas
Whereas the successful prosecution of the war requires every possible protection against espionage and against sabotage to national-defense material, national-defense premises, and national-defense utilities as defined in Section 4, Act of April 20, 1918, 40 Stat. 533, as amended by the Act of November 30, 1940, 54 Stat. 1220, and the Act of August 21, 1941, 55 Stat. 655 (U.S.C., Title 50, Sec. 104);
Now, therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me as President of the United States, and Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy, I hereby authorize and direct the Secretary of War, and the Military Commanders whom he may from time to time designate, whenever he or any designated Commander deems such action necessary or desirable, to prescribe military areas in such places and of such extent as he or the appropriate Military Commander may determine, from which any or all persons may be excluded, and with respect to which, the right of any person to enter, remain in, or leave shall be subject to whatever restrictions the Secretary of War or the appropriate Military Commander may impose in his discretion. The Secretary of War is hereby authorized to provide for residents of any such area who are excluded therefrom, such transportation, food, shelter, and other accommodations as may be necessary, in the judgment of the Secretary of War or the said Military Commander, and until other arrangements are made, to accomplish the purpose of this order. The designation of military areas in any region or locality shall supersede designations of prohibited and restricted areas by the Attorney General under the Proclamations of December 7 and 8, 1941, and shall supersede the responsibility and authority of the Attorney General under the said Proclamations in respect of such prohibited and restricted areas.
I hereby further authorize and direct the Secretary of War and the said Military Commanders to take such other steps as he or the appropriate Military Commander may deem advisable to enforce compliance with the restrictions applicable to each Military area hereinabove authorized to be designated, including the use of Federal troops and other Federal Agencies, with authority to accept assistance of state and local agencies.
I hereby further authorize and direct all Executive Departments, independent establishments and other Federal Agencies, to assist the Secretary of War or the said Military Commanders in carrying out this Executive Order, including the furnishing of medical aid, hospitalization, food, clothing, transportation, use of land, shelter, and other supplies, equipment, utilities, facilities, and services.
This order shall not be construed as modifying or limiting in any way the authority heretofore granted under Executive Order No. 8972, dated December 12, 1941, nor shall it be construed as limiting or modifying the duty and responsibility of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, with respect to the investigation of alleged acts of sabotage or the duty and responsibility of the Attorney General and the Department of Justice under the Proclamations of December 7 and 8, 1941, prescribing regulations for the conduct and control of alien enemies, except as such duty and responsibility is superseded by the designation of military areas hereunder.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
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It is completely reprehensible that people would have lost their property without due process. I will point that more that a few innocent people have had their financial lives destroyed by arrests and charges that later they were cleared of. How many of them get compensation from the government?
Compensation on fractions of the dollar over the course of some 45 years later? Please don't be insulting. The money was largely irrelevant, and only served as tangible admission by the U.S. government that it had done wrong.


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Old 10-17-2012, 10:22   #350
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
Speculation is all you have when you are losing a war and there is a threat. You have no concept of History and are truly a bleeding heart on this issue.
You just selectively deleted the part of my reply that pointed out the fact that German-Americans and Italian-Americans committed treason. You ignore that threat. And edit it out to do so.

Why do choose not to be honest about this?


If you think that opposing wronging citizens without a valid reason makes me a bleeding heart, then you can keep on saying it. However, I note that in your arguments in support of what was done, you have justified it by bringing up what the Japanese Empire did.

You ignore what the Germans and Italians did, and turn a blind eye to the treason by German-Americans and Italian-Americans.

Last edited by frizz; 10-17-2012 at 10:28..
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