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Old 10-16-2012, 19:47   #301
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
nice spin
It's not spin.

Do you not know that there are provisions in the Patriot act that allow indefinite detention of American citizens and use the same justification that you're using National Security?
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:48   #302
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It's not spin.

It's still more spin as you never addressed my question.
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:53   #303
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It's still more spin as you never addressed my question.
National Security is not important to me when my own government labels me a threat, a potential enemy of the state when I've done nothing wrong.

How's that?
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Old 10-16-2012, 20:11   #304
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National Security is not important to me when my own government labels me a threat, a potential enemy of the state when I've done nothing wrong.

How's that?
poor


...as you are not taking the National Security threat at the time into consideration.

How would you have delt with the National Security threat posed by the Japanese-American residents on the West Coast??
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Old 10-16-2012, 20:24   #305
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poor


...as you are not taking the National Security threat at the time into consideration.
There's also the racial component at the time that should be taken into consideration also, right?

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How would you have delt with the National Security threat posed by the Japanese-American residents on the West Coast??
Gone after the PROVEN threats.

Please answer my question,

When the same .gov that came for Japanese-American citizens comes for you and your family in the name of National Security when you've committed no crime, you're going to be compliant?
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Old 10-16-2012, 20:45   #306
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The threat posed by Japanese espionage was the National Security concern. But nice try!

An entire class of people were deprived of their right to live their lives, enjoy their liberties, and find happiness and in many cases deprived of their wealth and personal property.

Without due process. Without them commiting a crime or as a group providing a public threat.

FDR did not suspend the right of Habeas Corpus...their custody was not legal. As much as I hate to admit it, at least Lincoln, Grant, Bush and Obama all managed to do it within laws of the constitution.

None of the axis powers had affective espionage systems in place in the United States. Germany did have the Duquesne Spy Ring but they were all captured and jailed. The Japanese had even fewer if any in the mainland US.

If it was a national security issue then why were the Italian, German, and Belgian, Hungarian, or even some French living in the US...not taken prisoner?

The internment camps were there because of fear of the unknown.

Fear of the unknown does not justify depriving a person of their rights under constitution. Under our system you can not detain or deprive someone of their rights on their potential to commit an act.
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Old 10-16-2012, 22:11   #307
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I am not entirely clear on wht you are saying. but lets start with this.

What evidence do you have that Japanese Americans (Citizens were rounded up en mass and forced into internment camps?

And you do know the difference between internment and relocation camps correct?
That isn't relevant to my point.

The site you listed has a page that makes arguments about Japanese-Americans, but uses historical documents about Japanese aliens to do it. There are no documents with information about Japanese-Americans.
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Old 10-16-2012, 22:11   #308
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If it was a national security issue then why were the Italian, German, and Belgian, Hungarian, or even some French living in the US...not taken prisoner?
They were, there were many arrests of Germans and Italians.

some 418 Italians were interred and some 11,500 Germans were interred.

The biggest myth of WWII internment is that only Japanese were interred. They were by far the largest group but not the only ones by any means.
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Old 10-16-2012, 22:14   #309
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The site you listed has a page that makes arguments about Japanese-Americans, but uses historical documents about Japanese aliens to do it. There are no documents with information about Japanese-Americans.
You are overlooking the fact that a great many of the Japanese Americans were the offspring of those Japanese Nationals. Those Japanese immigrants were not eligible for American citizenship. Only their offspring were American citizens.

So yes they are connected.
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Old 10-16-2012, 22:36   #310
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An entire class of people were deprived of their right to live their lives,
Not an entire class, more accurately a specific class of people living in specific areas. (exclusionary zones)

There were 92,000 Japanese resident aliens in the U.S. at the start of WWII. of that 92,00 only 40K-50K (depending on whose figures you use) were interred and they were all from the exclusionary zones. The other 40K-50K who lived outside of the exclusionary zones were not interred.
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Old 10-16-2012, 22:54   #311
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And you're entitled to your ignorance.



They were adequate and better than some Americans lived in, certainly better than Japanese treated Americans.

It was war, get over it.



Because the Japanese are one of the most racist societies on Earth, and certainly then marched in lockstep as far as unanimity of opinion where anyone not Japanese is an outsider and the high likelihood of sympathy for the home island put them at risk of acting for the Empire and being susceptible to propaganda.

German ancestry accounts for about 40% of the ancestry in the US. It would have been impractical. Further, the Japanese were more maniacal as a group. More recent German immigrants were watched, I have stories from my family here during the war about FBI surveillance.



They shouldn't have gotten anything. They were released and that was the end of it.



Yes it was relevant and justified. The potential for reaction in subversive activities due to sentiment and allegiance to the Homeland were certainly a consideration.
The fundamental revaluation of both your argument's stupidity and ignorance is the fact that commingle the Japanese Empire and US citizens of Japanese descent. Then you outdo yourself with an argument about how bad the Japanese-Japanese were when the same could have been said about Germans and Italians.

Last edited by frizz; 10-17-2012 at 00:44..
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Old 10-16-2012, 22:59   #312
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
... interred.
Only because it keeps happening by many in this thread, and because of the vast differences in meaning, let me please correct this.

Internment is confining during wartime.

Interrment is burying a body!
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Old 10-16-2012, 23:01   #313
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I feel about as much pity for them as I do the folks we dropped the bomb on.
My Uncle told me about Kamakazee's hitting the Saratoga and how hard they fought to keep them back.
Read up on the stuff the Japanese walked away from after WWII and your pity might dwindle a bit.
Are you unable to read and understand? The US did this to AMERICAN citizens. If, right after after WWII, a Jew attacked a 3rd-generation German-American, would you find that justified because of what his distant cousins did?

Both reasons are invalid for the same reason.

Last edited by frizz; 10-17-2012 at 11:05.. Reason: fixed typo. WWI should be WWII
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Old 10-16-2012, 23:05   #314
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What is all of this talk about "racism" when talking about relocation and interment camps for Japanese and Japanese-Americans? It wasn't about racism and "yellow" people. It was about national origin and national heritage not race. As far as I can tell it was not about Asians and Asian-Americans at all, so it was not racial.

Why is it that people throw the race card about things that are not about race?

Starting from a false premise nullifies an argument.
To believe that it was just "national origin" requires a blind eye or Asperger's.
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Old 10-16-2012, 23:16   #315
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Only because it keeps happening by many in this thread, and because of the vast differences in meaning, let me please correct this.

Internment is confining during wartime.

Interrment is burying a body!
TRue, thanks
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Old 10-16-2012, 23:20   #316
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Wow, I was alive when that happened; but I had no idea about the Japanese Internet Camps. No wonder they are so far ahead of the rest of the world in technology fields.


Bad pun, but still funny. Good execution.


That island nation is filled with intelligent people with a high motivation to perform. The enemy must be given due respect... They kicked our ass for the better part of a year before our war production and motivated warriors were able to turn the tide.

I'm glad to have them as a friendly nation because they were a very powerful enemy.
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Old 10-16-2012, 23:32   #317
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Never saw any pictures of piano wires hanging from hooks, ala SS Nazis in Japanese Inter Camps. Don't believe they were brutally tortured, starved or medically tested to prolong an agoning prison life. The construction was fast/shoddy at best.

They had a hard time, no doubt being relocated. Would lynch mobs killing them while they slept, or burning down their houses/business's solve anything?
The US didn't need any more spying, or murder to deal with here.

The Pearl Harbor attacks, loss in the Phillipines, Pacific Islands all showed brutal war tactics used by the Japanese. Don't forget their war in China, not pretty.
Overall they survived, ask the Jews about their camps. Makes me sick to see how man can treat other men.
It doesn't matter how "bad" or "nice" a camp was. When you are deprived of your freedom, even a resort is hell.

Imagine your favorite resort you have ever visited. How would you like to be forced to stay there and never allowed to leave? Add to that, your detention is based on where your great grandparents are born.

Really, we should not consider the conditions because they are irrelevant.
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Old 10-16-2012, 23:39   #318
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I would agree with the Citizens not being locked up. I would not agree about the non citizens. detention of enemy Aliens has been a part of international law for a long, long, time.
I don't disagree with the enemy nationals part. As Japanese nationals (Japanese-Japanese) in the US should have been detained, as they were, just as we detained German and Italian nationals.
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Old 10-16-2012, 23:55   #319
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You might want to research that a bit Allied Servicemen were regularly starved, beaten and subjected to medical experiments.
It is not relevant!

Those were the acts of an enemy nation. That is not justification for us to mistreat our own citizens. This has been explained to you, but you refuse to understand.


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Some of the recon for the attack on Pearl Harbor was conducted by Japanese Civilians.
Were they American citizens? Try them for treason, but don't lock up everyone with grandparents who came from the same country as the traitor.

There was a team of German saboteurs who came to the US by submarine; the team included US citizens of German origin who were, obviously, loyal to Germany.

One of those citizens had a father here who had sympathies to Germany, and gave his son assistance.

This was a famous case, and they were all tried for treason (the Germans for espionage). As they should have been
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Old 10-16-2012, 23:57   #320
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No, it wasnt...unless you really hate your country.
That was over 70 years ago, and we are allies with Japan now. It was war. Get over it.
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Old 10-17-2012, 00:11   #321
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A lot of people got relocated besides the Japanese.
How was the draft any better as a matter of fact it was a hell of a lot worse. They drafted you sometimes against your will, gave you training probobly in facilities a lot worse than internment camps and when you were done they relocated you again to the Atlantic or Pacific on a Ship or an Aircraft over Schwienfurt or a landing craft heading in to Omaha beach or Tarawa
In comparison it would seem the draftee's had it much worse wouldn't it?
Sometimes you have to look at the National Sacrifice, not one small segment who felt persecuted.
"Felt persecuted"???? Jesus Christ on a cracker....

THEY WERE IMPRISONED!

And for no other reason than where their grandparents were born. Even if the camps had been resorts, they were still prisons.
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Old 10-17-2012, 00:23   #322
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It wasnt about the color of their skin it was about their ethnicity.
It was about the wave of atrocities commited in China by the Japanese, it was also to a degree a diffrence of culture. Japanese were segregated to a degree by themselves from American culture.
With a Son in the service every loyal Citizen and Naturalized Citizen in that family should have been released.
However with the rest of America making the sacrifices what makes the Japanese Americans so special?
You want to make the Japanese so special and different and subjected to hardship. I think in the context of the times, it was damn hard all over.
In the context of the times a bunch of displaced Okies, Mexican Americans, Native Americans might have been damned happy to be interred.
It was a time of scrifice for the entire country. You cannot understand in todays context what that means. My Father grew up with EVERY ONE of his brothers in COMBAT during WWII.
You wanna feel sorry for someone feel sorry for the Thousands of Mothers who lost Sons in WWII.
This is a false dichotomy. Feeling sympathy for someone wrongly imprisoned does not prevent me from feeling for mothers who lost sons. Or fathers who lost sons. Or brothers and sisters who lost brothers. Wives who lost husbands... children who lost fathers.

The hardship of regular citizens due to war shortages, etc. were a natural, unavoidable consequence of the war. The treatment of the people who had an artificial hardship imposed on them by nothing more than their grandparent's place of birth is a different matter.

You attempt to justify one, deliberate wrong with misfortune.
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Old 10-17-2012, 00:26   #323
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It's only a 'mistake' to a bleeding heart who does not know History.
I think that taking a citizen's freedom should be based on what that person did, not on what they are. Does that make me a bleeding heart.

No, pal. That makes me someone who values freedom.
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Old 10-17-2012, 00:34   #324
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The war against Japan could have turned out much differently if we had not taken action. Do you think there was no threat and they were interred just because of race??
Could have? Nothing more than speculation.

No threat? No such thing, proven by the treason committed by German-Americans and Italian-Americans.

Just because of race? That's is exactly what happened.
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Old 10-17-2012, 00:39   #325
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You are overlooking the fact that a great many of the Japanese Americans were the offspring of those Japanese Nationals. Those Japanese immigrants were not eligible for American citizenship. Only their offspring were American citizens.

So yes they are connected.
No distinction was made among 1st gen, 2nd gen, 3rd gen, and so on.

The 3rd gen were painted with the same brush as the 1st gen.
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