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Old 10-16-2012, 10:59   #276
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
In the same situation, yes.
You'd willingly give up your property and freedom to comply with the .gov doing to YOU and YOUR Family American citizens, what they did to Japanese American citizens?

There are provisions in the Patriot Act that allow the .gov to imprison Americans without due process indefinitely - It is after all for national security, you should be cool with that.

You're a vet, big sister considers you a potential threat, you remember that, right?
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:13   #277
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I enjoy the Constitution, I guess a lot of you don't.
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Old 10-16-2012, 15:00   #278
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Originally Posted by racerford View Post
While I assume you are using the plural form of "you", let me be clear I have never said it is right or justified. ...

If this source is good, it appears that there was some due process...
"In all instances, aliens are taken before the Hearing Boards ...
Yes, "you" was not directed at you personally. I didn't make that as clear as I should have; sorry.

So aliens were given more due process than citizens?
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Old 10-16-2012, 16:36   #279
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Originally Posted by racerford View Post
If it was about race, they would have locked up all "Orientals" (common racial classification was different then; anybody remember being taught about Mongoloids, Caucasoids, and Negroids?). They did not, it was about national origin. Words have meaning, confusing them does not not help the conversation, it hurts it.

Are you one of those people that calls every white person that kills a "black" person a racist? Or is it a hate crime to you?

Everything does not have to be about race, and this wasn't. It was about national ancestory and questions of loyalty.
They didn't look at other Orientals because these other Orientals didn't pose a (real or perceived) threat. The Chinese at that time were victims of Japanese aggression and American allies.

There were basically three large ethnic groups that originated in the countries we were at war with - Japanese, Germans and Italians. The Americans of Japanese origin were "relocated" while white Americans of German and Italian origins were left alone.

And it's not like their loyalty was guaranteed. There were pro-Nazi rallies held by German immigrants and German Americans in the Madison Square Garden just before the war, there were terrorist and spy cells on the East Coast, I think History channel mentioned some 2,000+ were helping Nazis one way or another. However, in this case, the German Americans were treated the right way - as Americans first, their loyalty was not questioned just because of their origins, and their rights weren't taken away unless they personally committed a crime.

There was a definite double standard, and it was definitely driven by racism.
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Old 10-16-2012, 16:40   #280
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No they were not the same, one you were interred and not free to leave in the other you could leave and relocate elsewhere if you chose to and IIRC some 30% of Japanese Americans who initially went to relocation camps left and resettled elsewhere before the end of the war.



I would agree with the Citizens not being locked up. I would not agree about the non citizens. detention of enemy Aliens has been a part of international law for a long, long, time.
But I think this is what I and others are arguing about. I don't question the legality of interring Japanese born aliens in the time of war. However, to strip the rights away from American citizens just on the basis of their ethnic origin, without them personally being involved in any crime, was dead wrong and illegal.
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Old 10-16-2012, 16:41   #281
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So aliens were given more due process than citizens?
The vast majority of "Japanese Americans" who were citizens were the children of the immigrant aliens.

While they were not required to go to the camps with their non citizen parent(s). they could choose to or their parent(s) could chose for them if they were minors.

In reality what else were they to do? this is 1942, the man is still the main bread winner of the family. They could not just leave their children outside of the camps, there was no one to care for them.

Many were also aware of the dangers faced by those Japanese that tried relocating on their own outside of the exclusionary zones. They faced extreme hostility in some case even being run out of towns at gunpoint.

That is also how many that were adults and not Japanese immigrants ended up in the camps. They were afraid to leave (the exclusionary zones) for fear of their own safety so they ended up being forcibly relocated.

As has already been stated it was certainly not america's Finest hour.
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Old 10-16-2012, 16:46   #282
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
But I think this is what I and others are arguing about. I don't question the legality of interring Japanese born aliens in the time of war. However, to strip the rights away from American citizens just on the basis of their ethnic origin, without them personally being involved in any crime, was dead wrong and illegal.
See my post above

And I don't disagree it was wrong. It was wrong to put so many Japanese Americans in a situation where they had no choice but to either voluntarily enter the camps because they had no where else to go or force their non citizen Parent(S) to have to make that choice for their minor children as they would have no one to care for them.
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Old 10-16-2012, 17:32   #283
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
In the same situation, yes.
Wow. Ok. You answered fairly.

But none of my rights are negotiable at any time. Not now. Not at any time. At any cost. Sorry I earned my rights, not just by birth, and a family that helped lead the revolution of 1773 and 1861...but with my own blood.

You and I think differently and I will let Ben Franklin do my speaking for me,,,

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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Old 10-16-2012, 17:41   #284
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Wow. Ok. You answered fairly.

But none of my rights are negotiable at any time. Not now. Not at any time. At any cost. Sorry I earned my rights, not just by birth, and a family that helped lead the revolution of 1773 and 1861...but with my own blood.

You and I think differently and I will let Ben Franklin do my speaking for me,,,

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
well stated
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Old 10-16-2012, 18:32   #285
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A lot of people got relocated besides the Japanese.
How was the draft any better as a matter of fact it was a hell of a lot worse. They drafted you sometimes against your will, gave you training probobly in facilities a lot worse than internment camps and when you were done they relocated you again to the Atlantic or Pacific on a Ship or an Aircraft over Schwienfurt or a landing craft heading in to Omaha beach or Tarawa
In comparison it would seem the draftee's had it much worse wouldn't it?
Sometimes you have to look at the National Sacrifice, not one small segment who felt persecuted.
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Old 10-16-2012, 18:53   #286
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A lot of people got relocated besides the Japanese.
How was the draft any better as a matter of fact it was a hell of a lot worse. They drafted you sometimes against your will, gave you training probobly in facilities a lot worse than internment camps and when you were done they relocated you again to the Atlantic or Pacific on a Ship or an Aircraft over Schwienfurt or a landing craft heading in to Omaha beach or Tarawa
In comparison it would seem the draftee's had it much worse wouldn't it?
Sometimes you have to look at the National Sacrifice, not one small segment who felt persecuted.
how about they put you and your family in a internment camps and to prove your a loyal American you volunteer in a unit with other men whos family is in a internment camp.(because as a 4C enemy alien you are not subject to a draft) gave you training probobly in facilities about the same as internment camps and when you were done they ship you off to Italy

out of the 14,000 men that volunteered to serve they received:
21 Medals of Honor
52 Distinguished Service Crosses
1 Distinguished Service Medal
560 Silver Stars (plus 28 Oak Leaf Clusters for a second award)
22 Legion of Merit Medals
15 Soldier’s Medals
4,000 Bronze Stars (plus 1,200 Oak Leaf Clusters for a second award; one Bronze Star was upgraded to a Medal of Honor in June 2000. One Bronze Star was upgraded to a Silver Star in September 2009.)
9,486 Purple Hearts

Becoming one of the most highly decorated units in the Army

And On October 5, 2010, the Congressional Gold Medal was awarded to the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, the 100th Infantry Battalion, and Nisei serving in the Military Intelligence Service

and as these men are fighting and dying to prove to Americans that they are good Americans. Their family is in a internment camp for the duration of the war

there is no shame to admit as a country when you made a mistake, judged Americans based on the color of their skin instead of who they are

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Old 10-16-2012, 19:07   #287
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there is no shame to admit as a country when you made a mistake, judged Americans based on the color of their skin instead of who they are
Right. There is no shame in this. We have grown as a nation and a people. What was tollerated in the past is not today.

I'm proud of this.
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:11   #288
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Right. There is no shame in this. We have grown as a nation and a people. What was tollerated in the past is not today.

I'm proud of this.
Well said.
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:15   #289
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
to strip the rights away from American citizens just on the basis of their ethnic origin, without them personally being involved in any crime, was dead wrong and illegal.

So the National Security concern was not important to you??

Remember how much of our wartime production (mostly aircraft) took place on the West Coast. The fact that we were able to make weapons without the threat of enemy bombing ect is the major reason we won WW2.
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:16   #290
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It wasnt about the color of their skin it was about their ethnicity.
It was about the wave of atrocities commited in China by the Japanese, it was also to a degree a diffrence of culture. Japanese were segregated to a degree by themselves from American culture.
With a Son in the service every loyal Citizen and Naturalized Citizen in that family should have been released.
However with the rest of America making the sacrifices what makes the Japanese Americans so special?
You want to make the Japanese so special and different and subjected to hardship. I think in the context of the times, it was damn hard all over.
In the context of the times a bunch of displaced Okies, Mexican Americans, Native Americans might have been damned happy to be interred.
It was a time of scrifice for the entire country. You cannot understand in todays context what that means. My Father grew up with EVERY ONE of his brothers in COMBAT during WWII.
You wanna feel sorry for someone feel sorry for the Thousands of Mothers who lost Sons in WWII.
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:17   #291
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there is no shame to admit as a country when you made a mistake, judged Americans based on the color of their skin instead of who they are
It's only a 'mistake' to a bleeding heart who does not know History.
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:23   #292
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So the National Security concern was not important to you??

Remember how much of our wartime production (mostly aircraft) took place on the West Coast. .
We were bombed by ballons, shelled by submarine and bombed by at least one airplane. An arms depot in New Jersey was blown up by what we think were Germans. Hundreds of ships were sunk off the east coast
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:36   #293
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It wasnt about the color of their skin it was about their ethnicity.
Ok, so it wasn't racism against yellow people, it was racism against ethnically Japanese people. That's WAY better.

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It was about the wave of atrocities commited in China by the Japanese
What does that have anything to do with anything? The Germans committed atrocities all over Europe. So did the Soviets. We didn't lock up ethnically Russian American families or ethnically German American families.

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it was also to a degree a diffrence of culture. Japanese were segregated to a degree by themselves from American culture.
From "American" culture?

I grew up speaking Korean (sadly, due to childhood taunts, I barely speak it any longer) and eating Korean food. My parents took me to a church that was attended mostly by ethnically Korean families, though like me, most of the children were born in the US and most of the parents became naturalized citizens.

Does that mean I didn't grow up in "American" culture?

No--it means that "American" culture now includes Korean churches and Korean barbecue joints, just like it now includes kielbasa and spaghetti. American culture is defined by the Americans that live here, and those ethnically Japanese American citizens were as American as anyone else.

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However with the rest of America making the sacrifices what makes the Japanese Americans so special?
Not wanting to get rounded up and "relocated" to a camp makes them "special"?

They wanted to be as "special" as everyone else, i.e., NOT get "relocated" or lose their property. They wanted to be able to live their lives, just like everyone else did. Yes, everyone was making sacrifices, but not everyone was getting deprived of their civil liberties without having committed a crime.
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:37   #294
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So the National Security concern was not important to you??
Denying American citizens their Constitutionally guaranteed rights is the greatest threat to national security that there is.
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:40   #295
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Originally Posted by Historian View Post
We were bombed by ballons, shelled by submarine and bombed by at least one airplane.


apples -- oranges


The threat posed by Japanese espionage was the National Security concern. But nice try!
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:40   #296
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It's only a 'mistake' to a bleeding heart who does not know History.
There is nothing "bleeding heart" to point at something and say that it was wrong.

You are arguing that it was necessary. I disagree with you, but I accept that you think you have reasons to make that argument.

However, you cannot argue that it was right.
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:41   #297
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So the National Security concern was not important to you??

Remember how much of our wartime production (mostly aircraft) took place on the West Coast. The fact that we were able to make weapons without the threat of enemy bombing ect is the major reason we won WW2.
So when the same .gov that came for Japanese-American citizens comes for you and your family in the name of National Security when you've committed no crime, you're going to be compliant?

To the average person, the government is the biggest threat to them. The .gov can/will do anything to its own people and justify it with the phrase "national security".
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:42   #298
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Denying American citizens their Constitutionally guaranteed rights is the greatest threat to national security that there is.

The war against Japan could have turned out much differently if we had not taken action. Do you think there was no threat and they were interred just because of race??
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:43   #299
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So when the same .gov that came for Japanese-American citizens comes for you and your family in the name of National Security when you've committed no crime, you're going to be compliant?

.

nice spin
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Old 10-16-2012, 19:45   #300
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There is nothing "bleeding heart" to point at something and say that it was wrong.


In this case it shows a lack of Historical knowledge and an emotional based reaction.
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