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Old 10-15-2012, 15:29   #121
Bob Hafler
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I like my Shotgun. It's been protecting my home for over 15 years. I have no plans on changing a thing,it's what I'm used to. I don't care what the latest guru says or thinks. I have a pistol on the nightstand but it's not my primary HD weapon.

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Old 10-15-2012, 16:19   #122
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I'm not going to take any side in this discussion, but for sure I can remember that during the Simunition FX training inside the dark rooms none of the people I trained with (including myself) had time to use the sights when things were going downhill.
On a side note I would like to mention that using the flashlight is such situation isn't exactly easy thing to accomplish either.
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Old 10-15-2012, 17:30   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Limitations of the platform vs. real and imagined advantages.
Limitations would include: limited magazine, harder to maneuver, distance limitations, and recoil (time to acquire target). For me the shotgun is perfect. I will be shooting from a stationary position and backed up by my wife who will be shooting a carbine w/30 round mag. We also have our pistols and flashlights.


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Old 10-16-2012, 10:40   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Shotguns are for breaching and non-lethal use... and ducks and clays if that's your thing...
Right...that's why in WWI the Germans wanted to ban US's shotgun use in the trenches...
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:43   #125
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Quote:
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So does everything have to be about combat? I thought war and civilian were totally sseparateof each other? Do you think that maybe there's a reason those tactics are mostly obsolete?
I thought that we were talking specifically about war time shooting?
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I'm starting to think so. It's strange because it seemed like a fairly easy thing to do for everyone. I guess it's a weak point for you
Easy thing to do for everyone? Is that why there are numerous reports of fathers shooting sons and husbands shooting wives at night because they thought that their homes got broken in?

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. I'm sure there are other things you do well.
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I do many things well. Shooting, riding motorcycles at breakneck speed, pick up chicks, ad infinitum.
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:07   #126
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There is a reason why shotguns in professional application are limited to breaching and non-lethal use. There is a reason why most professionally instructed Home Defense classes have nothing at all to do with a shotgun. . . .
Lol. What decent instructor would miss the opportunity to offer "combat shotgun" as a completely separate course?

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. . . .Shotguns are for breaching and non-lethal use... and ducks and clays if that's your thing...
Current Army infantry doctrine is hardly the be all end all of tactics or they wouldn't be continually reassessing them.
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:03   #127
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THE BEARD HAS SPOKEN!!

thou shall not contradict THE BEARD. to do so is heresy and is punishable by excommunication from the fanboy hivemind to wander the wastes of free thought for all eternity.

now to conclude the sermon we shall read from THE chart.......
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Old 10-16-2012, 14:01   #128
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Current Army infantry doctrine is hardly the be all end all of tactics or they wouldn't be continually reassessing them.
It's the military mentality: plan for the future war based on the current war.
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Old 10-16-2012, 14:08   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Limitations of the platform vs. real and imagined advantages.
Of course since that most if not all of these training professionals also are dealers on the side or advertisement mouths for various shooting products, it wouldn't color their opinions one bit about pushing an M4ery of some sort decked out with a couple of thousand dollars worth of optics, flashlights, muzzle brakes, collapsible folding stocks, rails, front grips versus a plain jane wooden stocked 18" barrel pump gun that only costs about maybe $300 to buy...
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Old 10-16-2012, 16:02   #130
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because of this tread i am grinding the sights off of all my guns and tossing all my lights in the garbage i plan on using the force
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Old 10-16-2012, 16:11   #131
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because of this tread i am grinding the sights off of all my guns and tossing all my lights in the garbage i plan on using the force
You'd be in good company, albeit a little late to the party. We've taped over our sights for years and I've never owned a light that was mounted to my gun.
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Old 10-16-2012, 17:27   #132
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because of this tread i am grinding the sights off of all my guns and tossing all my lights in the garbage i plan on using the force
If old timers can point shoot and hit, then I don't know why you can't. Unless today's marksmanship training isn't up to old timer's standards.
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Old 10-16-2012, 18:01   #133
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Depends on what your doing...are you room clearing or are you defending a room say a bedroom with a single door or your house again with a single door...no I dont want a longer barreled gun while im clearing rooms and or going around corners... But lets say you are home. its just you and you and wife and you hear your door get kicked down...im staying put getting the SHOTGUN(and laying the loaded and ready to go pistol next to me for a backup) calling the cops and then anything coming through that door...what do I want to shoot them with...a 9mm or .45 ACP or a load of Buckshot...I know which id rather be shooting and its not the pistol lol...

again lets say i hear a noise in the backyard or dog starts barking at something outside...again id much rather have the Shotgun with my $4 buck or 00 buck aimed at that door to wait till Police arrive than a pistol...only thing id want the pistol for wa if I felt the need to leave a room and or clear a house...and to be honest..once i got my wife and kid and me secure in a bedroom...as im in a residential place im not clearing much of anything im sitting and waiting in the room with my shotgun lol.
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Old 10-16-2012, 18:13   #134
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If shotguns are only for bird hunting and door breaching then why is the US military buying up the AA-12? And the Benelli M4? Pretty big packages just for secondary carry/door breaching...
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Old 10-16-2012, 21:48   #135
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When I moved to a MK19 my MK46 was slung across the turret door. After a guy ran up and tried to throw a grenade through the hatch they gave me a short barreled 590 w/ pistol grip. It was nothing more than an extra item I had to keep track of as it never was used. We were also issued Master Keys. They were thrown in rucks and forgotten.

Does anyone have stats on the number of AA12s in actual use w/ our military?
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Old 10-16-2012, 21:59   #136
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Easy thing to do for everyone? Is that why there are numerous reports of fathers shooting sons and husbands shooting wives at night because they thought that their homes got broken in?
I'd be willing to bet there were overriding factors due to unfamiliarity which caused an over abundance of stress. Ownership is the start. Training is important.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:46   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
When I moved to a MK19 my MK46 was slung across the turret door. After a guy ran up and tried to throw a grenade through the hatch they gave me a short barreled 590 w/ pistol grip. It was nothing more than an extra item I had to keep track of as it never was used.
I would have my M4 in hand if I were manning a MK19 in anything but the wide open country.

I had an M1200 that was nothing more than an EOF somewhere between laser beam and pen flare... or probably above both now that I think about it...

I don't really remember where, but it was a stupid idea then and now.

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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
We were also issued Master Keys. They were thrown in rucks and forgotten.
Thrown in rucks and forgotten???

Don't you know breaching guns are good for DFAC PIMPIN'???

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(the only shotgun that ever got used)

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Does anyone have stats on the number of AA12s in actual use w/ our military?
ZERO.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:21   #138
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Quote:
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I'd be willing to bet there were overriding factors due to unfamiliarity which caused an over abundance of stress. Ownership is the start. Training is important.
I can see the typical joe civilians gathering up their loved ones and spend hours and days in total darkness so that they can learn each other's silhouettes and body movements.
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Old 10-17-2012, 14:21   #139
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
I would have my M4 in hand if I were manning a MK19 in anything but the wide open country.

I had an M1200 that was nothing more than an EOF somewhere between laser beam and pen flare... or probably above both now that I think about it...

I don't really remember where, but it was a stupid idea then and now.

Thrown in rucks and forgotten???

Don't you know breaching guns are good for DFAC PIMPIN'???

(the only shotgun that ever got used)
W/ the intel constantly coming down about (enter large number here) men massing at the boarder I always carried something I felt was actually functional. It would have been a lot easier to sling that baby Mossberg.

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ZERO.
Exactly. One of those questions you ask even though you know the answer to it.

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I can see the typical joe civilians gathering up their loved ones and spend hours and days in total darkness so that they can learn each other's silhouettes and body movements.
LOL. Yep that's definately a requirement.

Still waiting on anything somewhat relevant from you.

Just like your claims concerning the AA12 and the numurous others. You haven't a clue.

Like I said in the other thread. Everyone recognizes you're lacking. My job is done. I no longer have to worry about you misleading anyone. They see right through your crazy talk.
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Old 10-17-2012, 14:48   #140
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Got to say there is a huge difference between kicking doors in in the sandbox and home defense. Totally different situations and threat expectations there. There is also a difference between a true M4 with burst or full auto and an AR. I'd also hazard a guess that there is a training issue involved as well. The military uses and trains on M4s.

Saying all that, I think the AR is a better choice but I certainly would not consider myself poorly armed with a shotgun and given cost consideration its a really valid choice. Shotguns got the job done for a very long time and they still work. Pistols are what you use because shotguns and rifles are heavy, awkward to carry and conceal poorly.
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