[avenues165]

Originally Posted by unit1069

In a perfect world physics would determine our handgun/ammo choices. The catch is that what is evident in static calibrated gel doesn't reflect the myriad factors that go into each and every self-defense scenario.

All things being equal, (e.g. reliable consistent mushrooming of the bullet) the faster a bullet of any given caliber delivers its energy the greater its effect as long as the bullet remains in the target. But the variables in self-defense shootings are so numerous that I doubt there will ever be a perfect world answer all of us would accept.

This.

With the number of variables, all we can do is hope for the best.

I still really like the idea of a 357 sig with a round loaded to its potential with a bullet designed for its velocities. I am still waiting to see TNOutdoors9 do a test of a 357 sig load moving at 1,450fps or greater.

Also, I have to admit that hot 10mm loads look particularly nasty on paper and in his tests. I would love to see a 10mm 165gr or 155gr UW load test.

[PrecisionRifleman]

Originally Posted by ABNAK

Okay, it has like a carbine-length barrel! SBR anyways......

You have to give the original 357 Mag credit where credit is due.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman

I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

Hornady TAP FPD .40 S&W 155 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube

Nice, informative video.

[Zombie Steve]

Originally Posted by ABNAK

Okay, it has like a carbine-length barrel! SBR anyways......

I didn't mean to derail the thread, but when you post something like "best handgun caliber on the planet for all around self defense" in caliber corner, you can expect the monkeys to start banging the tin cans and howling.

I didn't even get into the potential of the .45 Colt, the .44 mag, et cetera...


FWIW, I have no problem carrying a .357 mag in town or in the woods. The .357 sig, while impressive in the first role, is never going to have a place in the second. To me, self defense includes 4-legged animals too... I spend a lot of time in the mountains.

YMMV.

[dpadams6]

Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman

10mm stomps the 357sig between bullet diameter, bullet weight, and velocity.

Plus I'll take a 40S&W 155gr moving @ 1200fps in a 4" barrel over a 9mm 125gr bullet moving @ 1350 in a 4" barrel. But that's just my preference. To each their own.

Anyone who has used a handgun in self defense would prob. Believe that the 10mm might be a bit much in that situation for accuracy/control/follow-up shots. Great round otherwise. Someone once said, maybe this forum, that the 125 grain bullet just seems to be the ideal weight for defense against humans (357mag). Not to little and not too much. And 357 sig as well. They just work. Ive never heard of anyone say anything negative with the 357 sig. Every police dept. That uses it seem to like it very well. The secret service stated that it was the most effective round they ever tested. The 40 s&w 155 at 1200fps seems like that would be a fantastic round as well.

[dpadams6]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

According to his data, I need not worry about over-penetration with my +p+ 115gr JHP 9mms, even though they are likely going over 1400 FPS.

Another fantastic round. No one can say this round has not proven to work in the streets for years. Was very effective.

[dpadams6]

Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

I didn't mean to derail the thread, but when you post something like "best handgun caliber on the planet for all around self defense" in caliber corner, you can expect the monkeys to start banging the tin cans and howling.

I didn't even get into the potential of the .45 Colt, the .44 mag, et cetera...


FWIW, I have no problem carrying a .357 mag in town or in the woods. The .357 sig, while impressive in the first role, is never going to have a place in the second. To me, self defense includes 4-legged animals too... I spend a lot of time in the mountains.

YMMV.

was referring to humans only and being ideal. Actually the 357mag has been more effective than the 44mag AGAINST HUMANS. 44mag is a bit much and would not be ideal for accuracy/control and follow up shots, which most of the time are needed in a self defense situation.

[Yankee2718]

This thread is not about what is the absolute best cartridge in the world. It is only about observations from the tests that tnoutdoors9 posts on YouTube.

[Yankee2718]

Originally Posted by dpadams6

Anyone who has used a handgun in self defense would prob. Believe that the 10mm might be a bit much in that situation for accuracy/control/follow-up shots. Great round otherwise. Someone once said, maybe this forum, that the 125 grain bullet just seems to be the ideal weight for defense against humans (357mag). Not to little and not too much. And 357 sig as well. They just work. Ive never heard of anyone say anything negative with the 357 sig. Every police dept. That uses it seem to like it very well. The secret service stated that it was the most effective round they ever tested. The 40 s&w 155 at 1200fps seems like that would be a fantastic round as well.

The .357 Sig is very impressive. Underwood ammo has proven that the lowly 9mm can be loaded to near .357 Sig velocity. The Underwood 124 +P+ makes 1300 fps from a Glock 19. The Speer factory 125 grain Gold Dot made I think only 30 or so fps more from a Glock 32. It will be nice to see if he tests some of the Underwood .357 Sig ammunition for more comparison.

In regards to the .357 Magnum, it is a stellar round, when fired out of an appropriate pistol. Tnoutdoors9's tests have showed that in a self defense size pistol (Ruger GP100) the 357 magnum is neck in neck with the 357 Sig. It is still a very viable weapon, but the damage caused by the 357 Magnum from the GP100 is not much greater than the 357 Sig or fast 115 and 124 grain 9mm rounds.

Out of a 6 inch barrel the 357 magnum might leave both of those rounds in the dust, but not from a weapon the size of an average carry weapon.

[paragon1]

"Damage" to jelly does not equal damage to flesh. Jelly is bouncy brittle. flesh is flexible. Handgun rounds punch a hole. Nothing more nothing less.

Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.

[Zombie Steve]

Originally Posted by paragon1

Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.

Clearly, you aren't talking about equal bullet weights.

For all intents and purposes, they're the same diameter. Bullet weight being the same, the .357 mag holds a lot more powder...



FWIW, getting 1,250 fps with a 158 grain bullet and a 4" revolver just isn't that difficult. I'm not even sure how you compare a 9mm to that.

[dpadams6]

Originally Posted by paragon1

"Damage" to jelly does not equal damage to flesh. Jelly is bouncy brittle. flesh is flexible. Handgun rounds punch a hole. Nothing more nothing less.

Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.

I look forward to your results.

[uz2bUSMC]

Originally Posted by paragon1

"Damage" to jelly does not equal damage to flesh. Jelly is bouncy brittle. flesh is flexible. Handgun rounds punch a hole. Nothing more nothing less.

Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.

Make sure it is the 125grn .357 and crank the speed up to about 1600. Then I'll have a look see.

[WinterWizard]

Originally Posted by Yankee2718

If you watch his videos you can start to pick up on certain trends. I notice bullets that achieve >1000 fps seem to cause more internal damage than bullets that achieve <1000 fps. The slower bullets seem to just punch a straight path and not "churn" up the gel.

Some of the Underwood Ammo 10mm offerings in the 1500-1600 fps range produce a damage path that looks similar (not the same) to a .223 damage path.

I think that velocity and bullet construction is playing a bigger role in the wounding abilities of these bullets than the actual size of the bullet.

And yet, in his test of the Speer Gold Dot 200gr. +P, he says he is "having some holy crap moments in his .45 testing."

His words.

Sadly, he's only tested a few legit .45 loads. The rest are all crappy, light-for-caliber low-end or outdated stuff. He needs to test some wicked, modern .45 loads.

But the truth is there are loads in 9mm, .40, .45 and 10mm that do a great job, and his tests show that. Don't drink the velocity kool-aid too hard. You'll choke.

[Yankee2718]

Originally Posted by WinterWizard

And yet, in his test of the Speer Gold Dot 200gr. +P, he says he is "having some holy crap moments in his .45 testing."

His words.

I think the only thing he is referring to is the size of the expanded bullet. I could be wrong, but the damage to the gel block from some of those rounds isn't remarkable.

I'm starting to think that velocity plays a bigger role than we originally thought.

Typically people accept that 2000 fps is the base velocity for damage caused by the temporary stretch cavity. I'm throwing that out, simply because it is difficult to measure. Cutting and tearing of the gel can be observed, somewhat measured.

Bullets impacting the gel around 1000 fps seem to be causing more tearing damage than slower bullets that seem to be pretty much cutting straight through the gel. The damage seems to increase again around 1300 fps. I'm very interested to see what the 1500 fps range produces. Some of the Underwood 10mm loads are knocking on the door step of rifle velocity.

Just so I'm clear, I'm not talking about any temporary cavity. I'm simply observing the actual disruption of the gel. I'm really looking forward to some heavy and fast 10mm tests. I'd also love to see Underwood load a 200 grain .45 ACP to 1150 +/- fps. I think the 10mm results will be interesting. (The Underwood stuff, not the light factory stuff)

[JW1178]

About higher velocity rounds; it kind of boils down to this: We can argue how it works, but the reality is that it does work. If velocity in handgun calibers didn't matter, then when they went from .38sp to .357mag they wouldn't have seen much difference of a result. 147gr 9mm's look great in gel, often out perform the 115-124's but the results aren't reflected in the real world. The .357sig is not much more than a 9mm in a necked down .40 case, however although not a true magnum, they do seem to be getting the job done. Speaking of .40, I wish LE would take another look at the G20SF with full power loads. Honestly, if you can control a G22, you can shoot a G20 just as well, if not better.

Honestly, if I was in charge, cops in these really dangerous urban enviroments would carry a SBR AR15's chambered in whatever round they perfer. Punk gangbangers want a war zone, we should give them one. There are places like Detroit where I think it's foolish to send LEO's into wish just a handgun.

[Yankee2718]

Originally Posted by JW1178

About higher velocity rounds; it kind of boils down to this: We can argue how it works, but the reality is that it does work. If velocity in handgun calibers didn't matter, then when they went from .38sp to .357mag they wouldn't have seen much difference of a result.

That seems to be greatly ignored by many people. I think the love affair American gun owners have with the .45 ACP/M1911 has impacted the train of thought. Many people look at the 45 as a legendary man stopper with mythical powers. People in America play into the mindset that bigger is always better.

[Zombie Steve]

Originally Posted by Yankee2718

That seems to be greatly ignored by many people. I think the love affair American gun owners have with the .45 ACP/M1911 has impacted the train of thought. Many people look at the 45 as a legendary man stopper with mythical powers. People in America play into the mindset that bigger is always better.

.45 auto is a legendary man stopper. It has an uncontroversial century behind it, and it's just getting better. I've never attributed mythical powers to it, but it works. Even does the job at around half the pressure of 9mm +p. In this case, throwing a big rock negates the need for supersonic speeds.

It's not the only round out there that can get the job done, but its reputation is well earned and the "love affair" makes all the sense in the world to me.

The light and fast vs. slow and heavy argument will never end. Pick the one you think is coolest and shoot it a lot.

[dpadams6]

Originally Posted by Yankee2718

That seems to be greatly ignored by many people. I think the love affair American gun owners have with the .45 ACP/M1911 has impacted the train of thought. Many people look at the 45 as a legendary man stopper with mythical powers. People in America play into the mindset that bigger is always better.

If two guys were going into battle against each other. One armed with say, 7 rounds of .45. And the other armed with say, 12 rounds of 357sig. That would be a no brainer which one I would take. 357sig ANY DAY. And I would like my chances.

[PrecisionRifleman]

Agreed

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[PrecisionRifleman]

10mm recoil really isn't that bad, and I see no reason. why it would be less accurate. My 10mm is more accurate than my 40 using equal bullet weights.

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[JW1178]

Originally Posted by Yankee2718

That seems to be greatly ignored by many people. I think the love affair American gun owners have with the .45 ACP/M1911 has impacted the train of thought. Many people look at the 45 as a legendary man stopper with mythical powers. People in America play into the mindset that bigger is always better.

Well, when speaking of the .45ACP, it has more than enough size and weight to make up for it's slower speed. However the .357sig has more than enough speed to make up for it's lack of size and weight.

[4949shooter]

Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman

I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

Hornady TAP FPD .40 S&W 155 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube

I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).

[Yankee2718]

Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

.45 auto is a legendary man stopper. It has an uncontroversial century behind it, and it's just getting better. I've never attributed mythical powers to it, but it works. Even does the job at around half the pressure of 9mm +p. In this case, throwing a big rock negates the need for supersonic speeds.

It's not the only round out there that can get the job done, but its reputation is well earned and the "love affair" makes all the sense in the world to me.

The light and fast vs. slow and heavy argument will never end. Pick the one you think is coolest and shoot it a lot.

The 45 does have a history of stopping people. I make those comments tongue in cheek. However, many people, no matter what evidence there is to the contrary can't get past the "but its a 45" mentality. The 45 is a great round, no doubt. I like a lot of things about the 45. One downside to the 45 is the slow velocity the 230 grain loads produce. When the damage from a 357 Sig is compared to a 45, I see more damage from the 357. The 45 looks pretty and big, but the 357 seems to produce more damage.

Perhaps the whole thing is just a moot point, who knows. There will probably never be enough data available to determine any direct correlations to effect on target in relation to bullet size, weight and speed.

[dpadams6]

Originally Posted by 4949shooter

I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).

Yes. I agree. Seems like this load would hold up very well at higher speeds and being its a controlled/slow expansion, would probably get the best of both worlds.