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Old 10-09-2012, 18:52   #21
SCmasterblaster
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According to his data, I need not worry about over-penetration with my +p+ 115gr JHP 9mms, even though they are likely going over 1400 FPS.
One day I am going to chrono this load.
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Old 10-09-2012, 20:29   #22
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The gel isn't "churned". The path you see carved out is where the bullet has cut through. There is also going to be variability in how he slices the halves. You'll notice he uses that little pick thing to pry open the damage channel so it can be seen better.

Why do you think the maximum cavity isn't produced until several inches in? Because the bullet hasn't fully expanded yet! The damage is only being caused by what the bullet is physically touching. If temporary cavity/energy was causing damage you would see more damage at the entry point because that is where max energy is occurring but all you see is a wound track the diameter of the original caliber.

BTW, his .40 180gr HST test was one of the best for wound channel, in any weight or caliber.

.40 Federal HST 180 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube

What more proof? Look at one of his few videos where he shows front facing cross-sections of gel. The only damage is where the shaft of the bullet and the petals have cut through. For example, watch this starting at 3:30:

.45 ACP Federal HST 230 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube

BUT... the .357 Sig videos do show some evidence of the temporary cavity actually permanently deforming gel outside of the permanent cavity. So anyone dissing the .357 Sig hasn't been paying attention.
"Churned" may have been a poor word choice, but cutting is more accurate. There is more evidence of tearing at 1000+ fps. The slow moving .45 slugs simply push right through the gel. Even when he shows the cross section of the .45 rounds, there is no actual gel disruption. The sections fold back together. With the faster rounds there is some evidence of tearing in addition to cutting.

From what I've seen in his tests, 1220-1250 fps seems to be the starting point at any sort of temporary cavity damage. Still it appears to be minimal. There is more evidence of tearing and cutting though.

Last edited by Yankee2718; 10-09-2012 at 20:29..
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Old 10-09-2012, 20:54   #23
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Well, that "light end" is where the legend of the .357 Magnum lives.
Or the only part of the legend you've payed attention to...

It's a very capable woods round as well with 158's or 180's. Has been since 1934.

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Old 10-09-2012, 21:27   #24
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Or the only part of the legend you've payed attention to...

It's a very capable woods round as well with 158's or 180's. Has been since 1934.

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True story.
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Old 10-09-2012, 21:37   #25
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True story.

Okay, it has like a carbine-length barrel! SBR anyways......
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Old 10-09-2012, 21:42   #26
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In a perfect world physics would determine our handgun/ammo choices. The catch is that what is evident in static calibrated gel doesn't reflect the myriad factors that go into each and every self-defense scenario.

All things being equal, (e.g. reliable consistent mushrooming of the bullet) the faster a bullet of any given caliber delivers its energy the greater its effect as long as the bullet remains in the target. But the variables in self-defense shootings are so numerous that I doubt there will ever be a perfect world answer all of us would accept.
This.

With the number of variables, all we can do is hope for the best.

I still really like the idea of a 357 sig with a round loaded to its potential with a bullet designed for its velocities. I am still waiting to see TNOutdoors9 do a test of a 357 sig load moving at 1,450fps or greater.

Also, I have to admit that hot 10mm loads look particularly nasty on paper and in his tests. I would love to see a 10mm 165gr or 155gr UW load test.
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Old 10-09-2012, 21:45   #27
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Okay, it has like a carbine-length barrel! SBR anyways......
You have to give the original 357 Mag credit where credit is due.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:48   #28
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I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

Hornady TAP FPD .40 S&W 155 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube
Nice, informative video.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:39   #29
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Okay, it has like a carbine-length barrel! SBR anyways......


I didn't mean to derail the thread, but when you post something like "best handgun caliber on the planet for all around self defense" in caliber corner, you can expect the monkeys to start banging the tin cans and howling.

I didn't even get into the potential of the .45 Colt, the .44 mag, et cetera...


FWIW, I have no problem carrying a .357 mag in town or in the woods. The .357 sig, while impressive in the first role, is never going to have a place in the second. To me, self defense includes 4-legged animals too... I spend a lot of time in the mountains.

YMMV.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:16   #30
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10mm stomps the 357sig between bullet diameter, bullet weight, and velocity.

Plus I'll take a 40S&W 155gr moving @ 1200fps in a 4" barrel over a 9mm 125gr bullet moving @ 1350 in a 4" barrel. But that's just my preference. To each their own.
Anyone who has used a handgun in self defense would prob. Believe that the 10mm might be a bit much in that situation for accuracy/control/follow-up shots. Great round otherwise. Someone once said, maybe this forum, that the 125 grain bullet just seems to be the ideal weight for defense against humans (357mag). Not to little and not too much. And 357 sig as well. They just work. Ive never heard of anyone say anything negative with the 357 sig. Every police dept. That uses it seem to like it very well. The secret service stated that it was the most effective round they ever tested. The 40 s&w 155 at 1200fps seems like that would be a fantastic round as well.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:20   #31
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According to his data, I need not worry about over-penetration with my +p+ 115gr JHP 9mms, even though they are likely going over 1400 FPS.
Another fantastic round. No one can say this round has not proven to work in the streets for years. Was very effective.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:25   #32
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I didn't mean to derail the thread, but when you post something like "best handgun caliber on the planet for all around self defense" in caliber corner, you can expect the monkeys to start banging the tin cans and howling.

I didn't even get into the potential of the .45 Colt, the .44 mag, et cetera...


FWIW, I have no problem carrying a .357 mag in town or in the woods. The .357 sig, while impressive in the first role, is never going to have a place in the second. To me, self defense includes 4-legged animals too... I spend a lot of time in the mountains.

YMMV.
was referring to humans only and being ideal. Actually the 357mag has been more effective than the 44mag AGAINST HUMANS. 44mag is a bit much and would not be ideal for accuracy/control and follow up shots, which most of the time are needed in a self defense situation.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:02   #33
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This thread is not about what is the absolute best cartridge in the world. It is only about observations from the tests that tnoutdoors9 posts on YouTube.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:19   #34
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Anyone who has used a handgun in self defense would prob. Believe that the 10mm might be a bit much in that situation for accuracy/control/follow-up shots. Great round otherwise. Someone once said, maybe this forum, that the 125 grain bullet just seems to be the ideal weight for defense against humans (357mag). Not to little and not too much. And 357 sig as well. They just work. Ive never heard of anyone say anything negative with the 357 sig. Every police dept. That uses it seem to like it very well. The secret service stated that it was the most effective round they ever tested. The 40 s&w 155 at 1200fps seems like that would be a fantastic round as well.
The .357 Sig is very impressive. Underwood ammo has proven that the lowly 9mm can be loaded to near .357 Sig velocity. The Underwood 124 +P+ makes 1300 fps from a Glock 19. The Speer factory 125 grain Gold Dot made I think only 30 or so fps more from a Glock 32. It will be nice to see if he tests some of the Underwood .357 Sig ammunition for more comparison.

In regards to the .357 Magnum, it is a stellar round, when fired out of an appropriate pistol. Tnoutdoors9's tests have showed that in a self defense size pistol (Ruger GP100) the 357 magnum is neck in neck with the 357 Sig. It is still a very viable weapon, but the damage caused by the 357 Magnum from the GP100 is not much greater than the 357 Sig or fast 115 and 124 grain 9mm rounds.

Out of a 6 inch barrel the 357 magnum might leave both of those rounds in the dust, but not from a weapon the size of an average carry weapon.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:53   #35
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"Damage" to jelly does not equal damage to flesh. Jelly is bouncy brittle. flesh is flexible. Handgun rounds punch a hole. Nothing more nothing less.

Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.

Last edited by paragon1; 10-10-2012 at 11:53..
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:10   #36
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Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.
Clearly, you aren't talking about equal bullet weights.

For all intents and purposes, they're the same diameter. Bullet weight being the same, the .357 mag holds a lot more powder...

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FWIW, getting 1,250 fps with a 158 grain bullet and a 4" revolver just isn't that difficult. I'm not even sure how you compare a 9mm to that.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:39   #37
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"Damage" to jelly does not equal damage to flesh. Jelly is bouncy brittle. flesh is flexible. Handgun rounds punch a hole. Nothing more nothing less.

Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.
I look forward to your results.
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:09   #38
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"Damage" to jelly does not equal damage to flesh. Jelly is bouncy brittle. flesh is flexible. Handgun rounds punch a hole. Nothing more nothing less.

Shoot a deer with a .357 magnum @ 1400 fps, and shoot one with a 1000 fps.147 gr. 9mm. You can't tell a difference in the wound paths, other than the .357 doesn't penetrate as well.

I will try to do this during hunting season and take some pics. I will have a poll to see who can tell me which did what.
Make sure it is the 125grn .357 and crank the speed up to about 1600. Then I'll have a look see.
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Old 10-10-2012, 19:18   #39
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If you watch his videos you can start to pick up on certain trends. I notice bullets that achieve >1000 fps seem to cause more internal damage than bullets that achieve <1000 fps. The slower bullets seem to just punch a straight path and not "churn" up the gel.

Some of the Underwood Ammo 10mm offerings in the 1500-1600 fps range produce a damage path that looks similar (not the same) to a .223 damage path.

I think that velocity and bullet construction is playing a bigger role in the wounding abilities of these bullets than the actual size of the bullet.
And yet, in his test of the Speer Gold Dot 200gr. +P, he says he is "having some holy crap moments in his .45 testing."

His words.

Sadly, he's only tested a few legit .45 loads. The rest are all crappy, light-for-caliber low-end or outdated stuff. He needs to test some wicked, modern .45 loads.

But the truth is there are loads in 9mm, .40, .45 and 10mm that do a great job, and his tests show that. Don't drink the velocity kool-aid too hard. You'll choke.
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Old 10-10-2012, 22:14   #40
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And yet, in his test of the Speer Gold Dot 200gr. +P, he says he is "having some holy crap moments in his .45 testing."

His words.
I think the only thing he is referring to is the size of the expanded bullet. I could be wrong, but the damage to the gel block from some of those rounds isn't remarkable.

I'm starting to think that velocity plays a bigger role than we originally thought.

Typically people accept that 2000 fps is the base velocity for damage caused by the temporary stretch cavity. I'm throwing that out, simply because it is difficult to measure. Cutting and tearing of the gel can be observed, somewhat measured.

Bullets impacting the gel around 1000 fps seem to be causing more tearing damage than slower bullets that seem to be pretty much cutting straight through the gel. The damage seems to increase again around 1300 fps. I'm very interested to see what the 1500 fps range produces. Some of the Underwood 10mm loads are knocking on the door step of rifle velocity.

Just so I'm clear, I'm not talking about any temporary cavity. I'm simply observing the actual disruption of the gel. I'm really looking forward to some heavy and fast 10mm tests. I'd also love to see Underwood load a 200 grain .45 ACP to 1150 +/- fps. I think the 10mm results will be interesting. (The Underwood stuff, not the light factory stuff)
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