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Old 10-14-2012, 09:25   #276
tantrix
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Originally Posted by HighTechRedneck View Post
If it is so obvious to "any smart person" then you must have a mountain of scientific, peer reviewed evidence that shows the CDC schedule is dangerous or incorrect. Please, provide even one of these sources.
I'm not even an expert and I know the CDC schedule looks like it was put together by a kinder-gardener. There are far better ones out there, most popular being Dr. Sears modified/delayed schedule.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:47   #277
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Originally Posted by tantrix View Post
I'm not even an expert and I know the CDC schedule looks like it was put together by a kinder-gardener. There are far better ones out there, most popular being Dr. Sears modified/delayed schedule.
Can you quantify "far better"? Dr. Sears' schedule is merely proposed as a less objectionable option for families that might not otherwise vaccinate. There is no research to demonstrate that it is more effective than the schedule approved by the CDC, American Academy of Pediatrics,and the American Academy of Family Physicians.

Of course, I'll gladly admit that I was wrong if you can provide the research that quantifies "far better".

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Old 10-14-2012, 10:07   #278
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
Can you quantify "far better"? Dr. Sears' schedule is merely proposed as a less objectionable option for families that might not otherwise vaccinate. There is no research to demonstrate that it is more effective than the schedule approved by the CDC, American Academy of Pediatrics,and the American Academy of Family Physicians.

Of course, I'll gladly admit that I was wrong if you can provide the research that quantifies "far better".

-ArtificialGrape

Well, it's already been seen that the CDC schedule can result in potentially fatal harm to your children, usually with no recourse. The Sears schedule is merely a safer way of going about vaccinating.

Now...to me, if you have kids, it's a no-brainer which one is better. But, I really don't care what other people do with their kids...I'm not starting a campaign or anything...I'm just not following the CDC schedule.

Last edited by tantrix; 10-14-2012 at 10:08..
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:36   #279
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The Sears schedule is merely a safer way of going about vaccinating.
I understand that you believe it to be safer, I was only asking for you to support this claim with the relevant research.

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Old 10-14-2012, 10:49   #280
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
I understand that you believe it to be safer, I was only asking for you to support this claim with the relevant research.

-ArtificialGrape

Well, that's the entire reason Sears did it, because it's safer. Mostly because the kids aren't getting pumped full of vaccines the way CDC schedule has it. I see no reason to follow the CDC schedule when there's a more gradual way to do it...especially when kids are involved.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:17   #281
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Originally Posted by tantrix View Post
I'm not even an expert and I know the CDC schedule looks like it was put together by a kinder-gardener. There are far better ones out there, most popular being Dr. Sears modified/delayed schedule.
If it is far better, there must be longitudinal comparison studies showing the progress of a large sample of children throughout a significant portion of their lives after receiving one or the other of the vaccination schedules. Or at least something else showing a benefit. Please, again, I ask that you cite your references for your assertions of fact.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:20   #282
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Originally Posted by tantrix View Post
Well, it's already been seen that the CDC schedule can result in potentially fatal harm to your children, usually with no recourse. The Sears schedule is merely a safer way of going about vaccinating.

Now...to me, if you have kids, it's a no-brainer which one is better. But, I really don't care what other people do with their kids...I'm not starting a campaign or anything...I'm just not following the CDC schedule.
It has been seen that the CDC schedule can cause harm or death? Please refer us to those studies or bodies of evidence that support this rather serious claim. Once more, regarding the claim as to the "safeness" of the Sears schedule vs. the CDC schedule - show us the comparison studies. You make the claim, but you can't back it up with anything more than feelings and irrational hunches.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:23   #283
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Originally Posted by HighTechRedneck View Post
It has been seen that the CDC schedule can cause harm or death? Please refer us to those studies or bodies of evidence that support this rather serious claim. Once more, regarding the claim as to the "safeness" of the Sears schedule vs. the CDC schedule - show us the comparison studies. You make the claim, but you can't back it up with anything more than feelings and irrational hunches.

Kids have gotten sick and even died from vaccines, that's a fact. These were also parents following the CDC schedule, that's a fact.

You can come to your own conclusion there...I'm not trying to convince you either way.




Anyway, I've done the research, which is why I use the Sears schedule...it's not my duty to provide you with the evidence, you can follow whatever schedule you want with your kids.

There's also nothing to lose by using it vs the CDC schedule, but quite a bit to gain if your kid has an adverse reaction to any vaccines. But again, I don't care what other people do, it's their kids.

Last edited by tantrix; 10-14-2012 at 11:27..
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:28   #284
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I've done the research, which is why I use the Sears schedule...it's not my duty to provide you with the evidence, you can follow whatever schedule you want with your kids.

There's also nothing to lose by using it vs the CDC schedule, but quite a bit to gain if your kid has an adverse reaction to any vaccines. But again, I don't care what other people do, it's their kids.
I never stated it was your duty to inform anyone. I only asked that if you made such assertions as an accepted medical process was killing and harming kids, that you may provide the research you've performed or found to support such a radical claim.

The only thing lost by not providing some evidence to support the outlandish claims you make against decades of prior research is your credibility. You are certainly well within your right to appear as if you're talking out of your rear by making huge, as of yet unfounded claims. Please carry on.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:32   #285
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Kids have gotten sick and even died from vaccines, that's a fact. These were also parents following the CDC schedule, that's a fact.

You can come to your own conclusion there...I'm not trying to convince you either way.




Anyway, I've done the research, which is why I use the Sears schedule...it's not my duty to provide you with the evidence, you can follow whatever schedule you want with your kids.

There's also nothing to lose by using it vs the CDC schedule, but quite a bit to gain if your kid has an adverse reaction to any vaccines. But again, I don't care what other people do, it's their kids.
Didn't see your edit until I had responded to the original post...

People have died driving cars.
These people were also holding the steering wheel with their hands. It's a fact.

You draw your own conclusions, but that's why I only hold the wheel with my teeth, or if I'm wearing flip flops and can take them off, my toes. It's much safer.

Hopefully you can see the gigantic leap you take from your statement to your conclusion by what I've presented here using the same "logic".
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:39   #286
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Originally Posted by HighTechRedneck View Post
Didn't see your edit until I had responded to the original post...

People have died driving cars.
These people were also holding the steering wheel with their hands. It's a fact.

You draw your own conclusions, but that's why I only hold the wheel with my teeth, or if I'm wearing flip flops and can take them off, my toes. It's much safer.

Hopefully you can see the gigantic leap you take from your statement to your conclusion by what I've presented here using the same "logic".

You're simply trying to defend the CDC schedule as if it's the only right way, and that's obviously not the case. But again, if you feel confident in the CDC schedule by all means use it...nobody's going to stop you.
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:55   #287
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Here is a study that shows flu vaccines are worthless. Ignore it at your own peril. And if flu vaccines are useless yet touted as effective, what does that say about other vaccines that are highly touted. Do the math, sheep.

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A remarkable study published in the Cochrane Library found no evidence of benefit for influenza vaccinations. Itís also damns the quality of flu vaccine studies by saying that the vast majority of trials were inadequate. The authors stated that the only ones showing benefit were industry-funded. They also pointed out that the industry-funded studies were more likely to be published in the most prestigious journals Ö and one more thing: They found cases of severe harm caused by the vaccines, in spite of inadequate reporting of adverse effects.
http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/201...oration-study/
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Old 10-14-2012, 13:01   #288
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Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
Here is a study that shows flu vaccines are worthless. Ignore it at your own peril. And if flu vaccines are useless yet touted as effective, what does that say about other vaccines that are highly touted. Do the math, sheep.



http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/201...oration-study/

Despite what the anti-gunners think, probably close to 80% of the people on here are sheep. They're just right-wing sheep instead of left, but sheep all the same.

Last edited by tantrix; 10-14-2012 at 13:02..
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Old 10-14-2012, 13:14   #289
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Despite what the anti-gunners think, probably close to 80% of the people on here are sheep. They're just right-wing sheep instead of left, but sheep all the same.
Yep. The hippies hate vaccines, so the gun owners have to love vaccines. Can't agree with hippies, even when they are correct.

Ha ha ha. I have a gun and am free and corporate America and big Pharma are good, and so are gmo foods.
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Old 10-14-2012, 13:19   #290
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Well, that's the entire reason Sears did it, because it's safer. Mostly because the kids aren't getting pumped full of vaccines the way CDC schedule has it. I see no reason to follow the CDC schedule when there's a more gradual way to do it...especially when kids are involved.
Dr. Sears is cashing in on a $14.99 book that plays on vaccination fears. Dr. Sears is not a trained immunologist or epidemiologist, and does not provide research to support the claim that his schedule is safer.

Then people such as yourself echo his claim that is safer, with no evidence to back it up.

The point remains that to conclude that it is safer requires research to support it, and you have cited none.

I agree with you that everybody must do what they think is right for their family. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that your approach is safer is based on evidence.

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Old 10-14-2012, 13:40   #291
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Tantrix, your posts could be in a logic textbook under "Fallacies and How Not to Win with Them." Can you make a counterargument without committing a logically fallacious error?

(By the way, in circles of formal thought and logic, committing a logical fallacy invalidates an argument. In other words, even if your premise is correct, it will never be judged so as long as it is presented in a fallacious way. So, clean up your presentation, and your ideas may be taken more seriously. Of course, if you have no facts to back up your feelings and are relying on your logically weak/corrupt arguments, you're not going to make much headway, here.

Tantrix:

"Any smart person would not only space vaccines out" - ad hominem

"I've yet to hear a doc tell me this was a bad idea" - burden of proof

"my kid's pediatrician agrees that it' s great idea " - appeal to authority

"I know the CDC schedule looks like it was put together by a kinder-gardener" - ad hominem

"There are far better ones out there, most popular being Dr. Sears" - bandwagon

"it's already been seen that the CDC schedule can result in potentially fatal harm to your children" - post hoc ergo propter hoc

"Well, that's the entire reason Sears did it, because it's safer. Mostly because the kids aren't getting pumped full of vaccines the way CDC schedule has it." - circular reasoning

"Kids have gotten sick and even died from vaccines, that's a fact. These were also parents following the CDC schedule, that's a fact.
You can come to your own conclusion there...I'm not trying to convince you either way." - correlation does not necessarily equal causation

"it's not my duty to provide you with the evidence" - burden of proof

"You're simply trying to defend the CDC schedule as if it's the only right way, and that's obviously not the case" - false dichotomy

"They're just right-wing sheep" - ad hominem
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Old 10-14-2012, 15:13   #292
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Dr. Sears is cashing in on a $14.99 book that plays on vaccination fears. Dr. Sears is not a trained immunologist or epidemiologist, and does not provide research to support the claim that his schedule is safer.
And the pharmaceutical companies aren't cashing in to the tune of billions? Ha ha ha.

Wake up.
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Old 10-14-2012, 15:23   #293
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Tantrix, your posts could be in a logic textbook under "Fallacies and How Not to Win with Them." Can you make a counterargument without committing a logically fallacious error?
Nope...it's not an argument.
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Old 10-14-2012, 15:26   #294
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And the pharmaceutical companies aren't cashing in to the tune of billions? Ha ha ha.

Wake up.
Sure they are, where was that disputed.

The point remains that tantrix claimed that Dr. Sears' vaccination schedule was safer, and with regard to his his book, that was "the entire reason Sears did it". tantrix has been asked for the evidence to support this "safer" claim, and he has not provided any.

If you follow the CDC schedule or Dr. Sears' schedule the pharmaceutical companies are still getting your money.

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Old 10-14-2012, 15:35   #295
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If you follow the CDC schedule or Dr. Sears' schedule the pharmaceutical companies are still getting your money.

-ArtificialGrape
I couldn't care less who is getting what money, I just don't follow the CDC schedule. And yes...I do believe it's safer, but most others don't have a choice anyway because they have to follow the same schedule public schools do.

I don't.
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Old 10-14-2012, 15:42   #296
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Nope...it's not an argument.
Even this response is a logical fallacy, that of "ambiguity" and a bit of "moving goalposts." (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ambiguit.html)

Your previous posts, wherein you seek to convince others of your position's validity on the merits of using your own, self-conceived vaccination protocol, are, in the sense of conversational debate, most certainly "arguments."

Yet, when I pointed out that many of them were weak or invalid based on the logical fallacies you use to shroud them, you state "it's not an argument," implying that you are not arguing in a negative way.

If your statements contradicting other members' posts are not arguments, what are they? Shall we call them your statements? If so, I will restate my assertion that your statements are weak and invalid.

I realize, given the depth of the hole you have dug yourself with your unwillingness to listen to a large number of medically educated and trained people, that you are unlikely to reverse your response to, "I have no double-blind, statistically significant, peer-reviewed, repeatable clinical studies to refute the mountains of historic, clinical data showing the CDC vaccination schedule is safest and most effective, and I will therefore redact my claim that altering it according to my scientifically unsubstantiated feelings can only deviate from 'safest and most effective' in a negative way."
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Last edited by F14Scott; 10-14-2012 at 15:44..
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Old 10-14-2012, 15:46   #297
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Here is a study that shows flu vaccines are worthless. Ignore it at your own peril. And if flu vaccines are useless yet touted as effective, what does that say about other vaccines that are highly touted. Do the math, sheep.



http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/201...oration-study/
I can't read the actual study because I don't have access to it, but I can't truly believe an article that supposedly summarizes the study and makes a reference to "the entire pharmaceutical industry and it's minions." Definitely not an organization without an agenda, so you should utilize some common-sense scrutiny (and it helps to actually know something about the subject). And here it is: the study seems to have been about flu vaccinations in healthy adults. But what about the elderly with multiple co-morbidities? The study did not seem to mention them according to the article. This actually fits in pretty well with the current recommendations, where flu vaccines are recommended (not mandatory or required) for all, but strongly recommended (again, not mandatory or required) for people that can have potential complications of the flu. And the study did not claim the vaccines are worthless, it claimed that " As healthy adults have a low risk of complications due to respiratory disease, the use of the vaccine may be only advised as an individual protection measure against symptoms in specific cases." Again, healthy adults being the operative phrase here. There are millions of adults who are not healthy, have diabetes, lung disease, etc, and there are millions more elderly who tend to get staph aureus pneumonia as a complication of the flu. There are also millions of elderly who live in group or nursing homes.

But most importantly, even if this article is a good summary of the study regarding the flu vaccine, it says absolutely nothing about any of the other vaccines out there. Again, it helps to have rational thought before posting an article regarding an issue that you have no understanding of, and calling the rest of us "sheep."

So in my conclusion, the study is likely a good study (keep in mind I can't access it as a primary source) and it seems to fit in pretty well with the current recommendations anyway. But the article you linked to is worthless, and seems to be drawing conclusions that don't exist.

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Old 10-14-2012, 16:12   #298
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I couldn't care less who is getting what money, I just don't follow the CDC schedule. And yes...I do believe it's safer, but most others don't have a choice anyway because they have to follow the same schedule public schools do.

I don't.
While you have every right to believe what you want, it is incredibly stupid to believe something just because thinking that way makes you feel better, without any evidence to actually back it up. Think about your likely response to someone who says "I think guns kill people and should be banned from private collections and destroyed," and you'll know exactly where we are coming from. This statement goes against research and statistics that were done, and ignores all of the benefits of private citizens owning guns. Your statement does the exact same things. Thankfully, important decisions are usually not made by people like you.

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Old 10-14-2012, 16:15   #299
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Even this response is a logical fallacy, that of "ambiguity" and a bit of "moving goalposts." (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ambiguit.html)

Your previous posts, wherein you seek to convince others of your position's validity on the merits of using your own, self-conceived vaccination protocol, are, in the sense of conversational debate, most certainly "arguments."

Yet, when I pointed out that many of them were weak or invalid based on the logical fallacies you use to shroud them, you state "it's not an argument," implying that you are not arguing in a negative way.

If your statements contradicting other members' posts are not arguments, what are they? Shall we call them your statements? If so, I will restate my assertion that your statements are weak and invalid.

I realize, given the depth of the hole you have dug yourself with your unwillingness to listen to a large number of medically educated and trained people, that you are unlikely to reverse your response to, "I have no double-blind, statistically significant, peer-reviewed, repeatable clinical studies to refute the mountains of historic, clinical data showing the CDC vaccination schedule is safest and most effective, and I will therefore redact my claim that altering it according to my scientifically unsubstantiated feelings can only deviate from 'safest and most effective' in a negative way."
Uh, no it's still not an argument. I have stated several times in this thread I don't give a damn what other people do regarding their kids and vaccination. I simply said what *I* do and why I do it.

Just because you believe one doctor and I believe another doesn't mean anything. You're arguing that your doctor is right instead of Sears and my pediatrician. Feel free to follow the CDC if you want.



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Originally Posted by sputnik767 View Post
While you have every right to believe what you want, it is incredibly stupid to believe something just because thinking that way makes you feel better, without any evidence to actually back it up. Think about your likely response to someone who says "I think guns kill people and should be banned from private collections and destroyed," and you'll know exactly where we are coming from. This statement goes against research and statistics that were done, and ignores all of the benefits of private citizens owning guns. Your statement does the exact same things. Thankfully, important decisions are usually not made by people like you.
Again...you, like some others here, obviously believe different doctors than I do. It still doesn't mean anything. I already said earlier in the thread I read tons and tons of evidence prior to when my kids were born on the subject, and decided accordingly. You can do as you wish.

Last edited by tantrix; 10-14-2012 at 16:17..
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Old 10-14-2012, 16:29   #300
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Uh, no it's still not an argument. I have stated several times in this thread I don't give a damn what other people do regarding their kids and vaccination. I simply said what *I* do and why I do it.

Just because you believe one doctor and I believe another doesn't mean anything. You're arguing that your doctor is right instead of Sears and my pediatrician. Feel free to follow the CDC if you want.





Again...you, like some others here, obviously believe different doctors than I do. It still doesn't mean anything. I already said earlier in the thread I read tons and tons of evidence prior to when my kids were born on the subject, and decided accordingly. You can do as you wish.
Ahh, I see. Your dozen or so (mostly invalid) posts regarding what YOU think is the proper vaccination routine are only about you, and my posts are just about me. Either way could be right. They're both just opinions, with no way to tell which set of our doctors has better information. Ignoring that that pattern of thinking is, no surprise, another logical fallacy, that of "middle ground," wherein both sides of an argument are arbitrarily assigned equal status by the weaker side, I will say that you are awfully invested in transmitting your own preferences to the participants in this thread, including declaring those who disagree with you "sheep," for someone who doesn't care one way or another.

If you can make a statement without a logical fallacy, I'll be glad to respond. Otherwise, I've had enough of trying to "wrestle with a pig."
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