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Old 10-25-2012, 13:14   #26
countrygun
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Originally Posted by PhoenixTacSolutions View Post
I see many misunderstood/misread my initial post. I will try to be more clear in the future.
Sorry, but if you leave a thread untended for a couple of weeks it will go feral.
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Old 10-25-2012, 13:46   #27
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You are quite right Sir! As I don't have the time to manage my threads, this will be my last post.
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Old 10-25-2012, 14:55   #28
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I am not one to "buy" anyone elses "theories" about shooting totally, I am too long a cynic for that. There are a lot of parts to a lot of "techniques/theories/methods" that do make sense, and a lot that don't. I think it is because of the individual nature we humans posses. I am also equally sure that one could come up with something "off the wall" and with a little success, say at some form of gamesmanship, and the right sales technique, it could become downright popular. Look at how fast hooked trigger guards started showing up on semi autos and they are still with us despite the fact they are used by such a minority.

But I spent a good deal of time in the martial arts myself and have seen the results of what we called "mushin" or "no mind" basically the application of a physical technique via the subconscious mind. A few decades ago a man by the name of (sp?) Tim Galloway applied it to a teaching method for tennis. He called it "The Inner Game of Tennis'. It was quite popular and improved the game of many players. There is much the human brain/body interface is capable of, BUT and it is important, that "individuality" I spoke of is the biggest factor. Different people learn and perform better in different ways and with different mindsets, that is what helps us keep our individuality. The old saying "there is more than one way to skin a cat" is quite true. It is much like what is often talked about with "type "A" and type "B" " personalities.

If you really do some research and read the dozens of articles about Bill Jordan, you wil noyice how observers and interviewers remarked that he was utterly calm and showed nothing more that a change of expression when he did his demonstrations. almost no sign of physical strain,save for the muscles in his hand and arm.

Other shooters of note perform well when they are "keyed up" like an overwound spring.

There is more than one way to put holes where you want them on a target you chose. As the Bard said, "There are far more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.". We should be thankful for that. I helps us retain our individuality.

As to the actual mechanics of speed vs accuracy, I shouldn't think that the concepts are mutually and always exclusive given what people know IS possible in accuracy, and what accept in the name of speed. I think some individual wiggle room just might exist. I know my wife is a good example. She inevitably does as well DA against the clock @ 25 yds with full house .357 loads, as she does with more "casual" or non existent, timing and .38 spl rounds. It's a "getting into the rythm" thing for her. Me? I'm such a lousy shot it's laughable.
That is a beautiful post. Good stuff, countrygun.
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Old 10-25-2012, 18:09   #29
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You are quite right Sir! As I don't have the time to manage my threads, this will be my last post.
Interesting that time and the ability to control are at odds with each other.

Where have I seen that conflict before
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Old 10-25-2012, 18:54   #30
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Despite working 6 days a week and having a family (2 kids), I'll bite.

I think my post is very clear.

I see MANY new shooters lined up on the 3 yard line just throwing rounds at the target without having fundamentals in place and the ability to properly run the gun. What does this accomplish other than catering to the person's ego? Just barely making it into thoracic from 3 yards while training is not an art. Speed for the sake of speed without having proper fundamentals is counterproductive.

If shooter A can put 2 rounds into a 2" group from 3 yards in 1.2 seconds and shooter B puts 2 rounds in a 12" group in the same time who has the advantage when in a defensive shooting situation. Shooter A clearly has a better command of his pistol and shooting fundamentals.

There is always the possibility that shots will open up in a defensive shooting scenario...hence tighter groups while training is an asset.

There are those who say you can't have good accuracy and speed. I disagree. I'm not talking pin point accuracy at speed...but relatively tight groups...assuming your fundamentals are in place.

Combat accuracy certainly has a place...combat and defensive shootings.



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Interesting that time and the ability to control are at odds with each other.

Where have I seen that conflict before
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Old 10-25-2012, 19:13   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixTacSolutions View Post
Despite working 6 days a week and having a family (2 kids), I'll bite.

I think my post is very clear.

I see MANY new shooters lined up on the 3 yard line just throwing rounds at the target without having fundamentals in place and the ability to properly run the gun. What does this accomplish other than catering to the person's ego? Just barely making it into thoracic from 3 yards while training is not an art. Speed for the sake of speed without having proper fundamentals is counterproductive.

If shooter A can put 2 rounds into a 2" group from 3 yards in 1.2 seconds and shooter B puts 2 rounds in a 12" group in the same time who has the advantage when in a defensive shooting situation. Shooter A clearly has a better command of his pistol and shooting fundamentals.

There is always the possibility that shots will open up in a defensive shooting scenario...hence tighter groups while training is an asset.

There are those who say you can't have good accuracy and speed. I disagree. I'm not talking pin point accuracy at speed...but relatively tight groups...assuming your fundamentals are in place.

Combat accuracy certainly has a place...combat and defensive shootings.

PTS,

I much enjoyed your thread starter. I also humbly submit that Ithaca Deerslayer is comparing your comment with regards to being able to "manage" this thread to your very subject matter. While I have never seen him shoot, I am firm in the belief that he has a solid grasp on shooting fundamentals.

- G
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Old 10-25-2012, 19:45   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixTacSolutions View Post
If shooter A can put 2 rounds into a 2" group from 3 yards in 1.2 seconds and shooter B puts 2 rounds in a 12" group in the same time who has the advantage when in a defensive shooting situation. Shooter A clearly has a better command of his pistol and shooting fundamentals.
.
I do agree.

Thanks for clarifying.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:04   #33
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The way I was trained is to have multiple hits in about a 5 inch area of the upper chest area . The theory is that the body responds to bullet impacts at that distance as if they are separate wounds close shot placement the body will perceive as a single wound. The end goal being hemmorahic shock and resulting organ failure. That is what offers the highest survive ability rate for us as gunfighters. It also is consistent with the fact that gunfights are lost or won in fractions of a second.

Train to survive
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:12   #34
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The way I was trained is to have multiple hits in about a 5 inch area of the upper chest area . The theory is that the body responds to bullet impacts at that distance as if they are separate wounds close shot placement the body will perceive as a single wound. The end goal being hemorrhagic shock and resulting organ failure. That is what offers the highest survive ability rate for us as gunfighters. It also is consistent with the fact that gunfights are lost or won in fractions of a second.

Train to survive
The body needs oxygen and glucose as fuel/energy. The ultimate goal is to disrupt the major organs in that process of getting oxygen thru the system,

or,

disrupt the computer that synchronizes this activity

or,

disrupt the motors that allow a threat to be affected against you.

or last, where the simple psychological impact of an attack being repelled renders your assailant mentally incapable of commanding and co-ordinating his systems to act against you.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:45   #35
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The body needs oxygen and glucose as fuel/energy. The ultimate goal is to disrupt the major organs in that process of getting oxygen thru the system,

or,

disrupt the computer that synchronizes this activity

or,

disrupt the motors that allow a threat to be affected against you.

or last, where the simple psychological impact of an attack being repelled renders your assailant mentally incapable of commanding and co-ordinating his systems to act against you.


I just finished a carbine class where we talked about shutting off the computer. The instructors called it "giving them one in the running lights" The way our discussion went was head shots are great if that's all you have of the target. I was asked if I could reasonably come online adjust for my holdover if closer than 50 meters and get off a head shot faster than I could come chest high and squeeze off 5 rounds within that same 5-8 inch circle. Doing that a couple times really convinced me that their method was more effective for me.

I'm sure that there are some guys out there who can operate differently but with my skillset this seems to work pretty good
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:12   #36
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Bear in mind that your shots may/will open up under adrenaline dump. Do you over/under compensate to achieve a 5" group? In other words, do you intentionally guarantee a 5" group?

Just when I thought I was out...

Quote:
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The way I was trained is to have multiple hits in about a 5 inch area of the upper chest area . The theory is that the body responds to bullet impacts at that distance as if they are separate wounds close shot placement the body will perceive as a single wound. The end goal being hemmorahic shock and resulting organ failure. That is what offers the highest survive ability rate for us as gunfighters. It also is consistent with the fact that gunfights are lost or won in fractions of a second.

Train to survive

Last edited by PhoenixTacSolutions; 10-26-2012 at 10:15..
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:57   #37
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[QUOTE=PhoenixTacSolutions;19558091]Bear in mind that your shots may/will open up under adrenaline dump. Do you over/under compensate to achieve a 5" group? In other words, do you intentionally guarantee a 5" group?

Just when I thought I was out...[/QUOTE


Lol
It's not a measured pattern or intentionally aimed that way . It's more a cadence of shots from the holster in rapid succession until the threat is eliminated. 5 inches is just the measured acceptable size for whatever reason. From the discussion I gathered it has a lot to. do with the distance where the major organs are in the chest.
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Old 10-26-2012, 13:30   #38
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Bear in mind that your shots may/will open up under adrenaline dump. Do you over/under compensate to achieve a 5" group? In other words, do you intentionally guarantee a 5" group?

Just when I thought I was out...
Sort of one of my great puzzlements.

Folks settle for a 5" group at 7-10 yds and say "good enough for combat" yet hardly anyone denies that under stress groups may double, so they are saying that they expect 10" groups to save their lives? that is setting the bar pretty low when your life is at stake.
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Old 10-26-2012, 14:10   #39
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Sort of one of my great puzzlements.

Folks settle for a 5" group at 7-10 yds and say "good enough for combat" yet hardly anyone denies that under stress groups may double, so they are saying that they expect 10" groups to save their lives? that is setting the bar pretty low when your life is at stake.
Maybe I'm not explaining it right. I'm not talking about marksmanship or just target shooting. For carbine we were running 5 shot groups in 2 sec from low ready then the same drill doing 3 shots in 2 sec from the holster as a transition drill. We're not settling for 5 inch groups during these drills. I would say that more than 80 % of the officers shoot expert or distinguished so grouping size is not a concern for punching paper. The goal is to get the shooter up to the point that multiple hits Han be made in areas that will rapidly incapacitate a suspect or threat twice a year while going through qualification it's taught that gunfights are won in fractions of seconds. The question is then posed do you train for fast multiple lethal hits on target or train for precision shots. Efficiency of action or time Nd equity of shots.

They are two different philosophies but in order to do what we are training you firs have to master basic marksmanship and shooting fundamentals
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Old 10-26-2012, 14:36   #40
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Maybe I'm not explaining it right. I'm not talking about marksmanship or just target shooting. For carbine we were running 5 shot groups in 2 sec from low ready then the same drill doing 3 shots in 2 sec from the holster as a transition drill. We're not settling for 5 inch groups during these drills. I would say that more than 80 % of the officers shoot expert or distinguished so grouping size is not a concern for punching paper. The goal is to get the shooter up to the point that multiple hits Han be made in areas that will rapidly incapacitate a suspect or threat twice a year while going through qualification it's taught that gunfights are won in fractions of seconds. The question is then posed do you train for fast multiple lethal hits on target or train for precision shots. Efficiency of action or time Nd equity of shots.

They are two different philosophies but in order to do what we are training you firs have to master basic marksmanship and shooting fundamentals
I was disagreeing, just making an observation about some of the theories I have heard. Obviously my post makes a case for improved marksmanship
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Old 10-26-2012, 14:41   #41
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Not to mention, everyones' accuracy deteriorates when they start recieving return fire. So you want it to be as good as possible before that happens.
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Old 10-26-2012, 15:12   #42
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Regardless of the sport, good instruction is never a bad thing.
I think it's great that lots of new people are learning to shoot. The fact that they aren't learning in a manner that some people here think is correct, is nonsense. At least they are shooting. If I see someone who is obviously new shooting next to me, I might offer assistance. But unless they are doing something unsafe, I usually keep to myself. For all you know, the guy practicing "wrong" at close range might have spent his entire range session his last time out at 25 yards. Or he might be planning on switching to 25 yards afterwards.

For such freedom loving people, there is more condescension on this site than a lot of others. Wrong caliber, wrong manufacturer (except when bashing Kimber and Nighthawk ), wrong press, wrong loads, wrong trigger, sights, wrong carry method, and now wrong training.
Some people need to lighten up.
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Old 10-26-2012, 20:58   #43
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..Wrong caliber, wrong manufacturer (except when bashing Kimber and Nighthawk ), wrong press, wrong loads, wrong trigger, sights, wrong carry method, ...

That use of the smilie was wrong.
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Old 10-26-2012, 21:25   #44
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Whose gonna give me the last 4 minutes of my life back.

What a thread of self indulgent crap.
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Old 10-26-2012, 22:07   #45
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Whose gonna give me the last 4 minutes of my life back.

What a thread of self indulgent crap.
If you had skipped my posts, it would have only taken you 2 minutes to read the thread
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Old 11-05-2012, 18:37   #46
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I'm certainly not disagreeing with the OP.

But I think some distinction needs to be made between practice that consists of shooting small groups at a slow cadence, and practicing your shooting at a reasonably rapid cadence (such as we might want/need to do in "combat.")

My group size when shooting (let's say at a distance of 7 yards) at a rate of one shot every five seconds, and my group size when shooting 5 shots per second (at the same 7 yards), will be different.

At the slower rate of fire I wouldn't be satisfied with any group bigger than 1 inch (at 7 yards). At the same distance, shooting at a rate of 5-6 shots/second, I'll accept 6 inch - 8 inch groups (knowing that at closer ranges, or at slower rates of fire, those group sizes will shrink proportionately).

Several of the "gun schools" I've attended preach that if your groups are really small, you're shooting too slow. We're encouraged to speed up and accept reasonably larger (fist-size, maybe open-palm-size) groups.

I guess I'm saying we need to practice both. I can envision situations where I'd rather have 7-8 "thoracic cavity"" hits on target instead of 1 or 2 "perfect center punch" hits (especially if dealing with multiple thugs).

Just my opinion.
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Old 11-08-2012, 17:27   #47
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As Dirty Harry said "Every man must know his limitations."

Someone that treats weapon skills as a martial art will train, practice and push their art to failure. You must do this to know where your strength and weaknesses lye.


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Old 11-09-2012, 17:45   #48
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Lots of things can "cause" your grouping to open up in a SD situation. Being shot at can certainly do it. Running or shooting from awkward angles can do it. Adrenal dump is not this dreaded monster that ruins everything like godzilla. It can actually be a benifit which is why it happens to being with. Its your body trying to aid and prepare itself for a dangerous situation. Can it cause your group to open up? sure... Is it something I am going to hyper focus on> nope.

This talk of combat accuracy and its negative aspects really seems a little unfair since only few in this thread have placed it in reasonable context. I can say that I have never encountered someone who in the best of shooting circumstances... claims that all they want to do is hit paper as a bar setting achievment. I have seen people do all manner of things while on the range. I try not to draw too many conclusions about their specific training goals if I have not discussed it with them.

As it was nicely stated in an earlier post.. shot placement and gouping is judged differently in different situations. If I am training to shoot from the hip or unusual angle at a close target that is nearly upon me.. I am not telling myself to "aim for the imaginary third button from the top".
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Old 11-12-2012, 22:03   #49
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Pelvic hits? Does anyone take advantage of the pelvic region?
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Old 01-26-2013, 13:16   #50
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The first to land a disabling shot wins, not the first to get an X. The thoratic cavity is pretty big. When you are in "combat" mode you lose fine motor function, fingers tingle and everything goes tunnel. I shoot 50' just incase I need to land 1 double tap to end a fight from concealed position (behind). Most real world shootings happen insids 12 feet. In this case I am shooting from draw through the rise rapidly. I want as much steel on target as possible. PPC is for marksmanship practice not training. If you stand still and aim to get a perfect shot while being directly engauged you will get shot. This is the differance between Joe public and an operator. I train with some practice in my routine. IDPA, USPSA are games also and only give minimal feedback as to ypour skills. Go to a force on force school and get your ego busted when you are covered with red paint in the first hour. This is true preperation for a real world fight.
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