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Old 10-11-2012, 14:48   #326
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Seriously?

well next time there is a post about LE accidently killing someone (Bad shoot, car wreck) or even if one deliberately murders someone I'll remind you that there is really no difference than if the person had died in an accident or were struck by lightning.

When it comes to workplace death? Perhaps you can explain the difference instead of inserting laughing smilies in an attempt to paper over your lack of argument.
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Old 10-11-2012, 15:01   #327
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My job puts me in lose proximity to lunatics that seem to think driving 150mph on public roads is acceptable behavior. You know how many time this year I have almost been murdered by these people?
road construction?
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Old 10-11-2012, 15:05   #328
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
When it comes to workplace death? Perhaps you can explain the difference instead of inserting laughing smilies in an attempt to paper over your lack of argument.
If you cannot fathom the difference between death by accidental means and death by deliberate homicide I don't think anyone can explain it to you.

You brought up your wife, what does she think? would she view your death by accident on the job as being the same as your death if you were murdered?
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Old 10-11-2012, 15:51   #329
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
If you cannot fathom the difference between death by accidental means and death by deliberate homicide I don't think anyone can explain it to you.

You brought up your wife, what does she think? would she view your death by accident on the job as being the same as your death if you were murdered?
So you can't explain it?

How about the difference between being murdered on the job vs burned alive "accidentally"?
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Old 10-11-2012, 15:55   #330
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
If you cannot fathom the difference between death by accidental means and death by deliberate homicide I don't think anyone can explain it to you.

You brought up your wife, what does she think? would she view your death by accident on the job as being the same as your death if you were murdered?
I can say this, I helped a friend lay his murdered 24 yr old daughter to rest 2 weeks ago. His pain was unimaginable. She was killed execution style. I can't say for sure that his pain would have been any less had she been accidentally burned alive. I don't think mine would have been.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 10-11-2012 at 16:54..
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Old 10-11-2012, 18:48   #331
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
And the 2nd amendment had nothing to do with carrying what you want, when you want, however you want, wherever you want.


Listen to the man, he was there when they put the ink to parchment and wrote the 2nd amendment, he knows.

To get back to the topic, IMHO the guy messed up and broke the law of the state he was in.

No sympathy from me for his ignorance, but I am sorry it happened.
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:23   #332
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
And I suppose we can interpret well to mean a hole int he ground with water in it. so "well regulated" meant a well "supplied" water hole that the people were "practiced" at getting water out of.

Plug them in and see which one makes sense

A REG'ULATED, pp. Adjusted by rule, method or forms; put in good order; A subjected to rules or restrictions. Militia, being necessary to a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Using your definition in front seems to conflict with the last part a bit.

If you go with the "collective" argument it gets down right crazy.

A subjected to rules or restrictions militia being necessary for a free state, the right of the states to own and own arms shall not be infringed.

The problem the founders could not forsee was the change in language and common word usage.

The common use of regulated then isn't what we use it for now.

No idea why this is half bold lettering

reg·u·late

   /ˈrɛgyəˌleɪt/ Show Spelled[reg-yuh-leyt] Show IPA
verb (used with object), reg·u·lat·ed, reg·u·lat·ing. 1. to control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.: to regulate household expenses.

2. to adjust to some standard or requirement, as amount, degree,


EDIT TO ADD
http://www.guncite.com/journals/senrpt/fgd-guar.html

Not removed from the originally proposed version, however, was the term "well-regulated." Contrary to modern usage, wherein "regulated" is generally understood to mean "controlled" or "governed by rule", in its obsolete form pertaining to troops, "regulated" is defined as "properly disciplined." II Compact Edition, Oxford English Dictionary 2473 (1971). In the Oxford English Dictionary, moreover, the verb "discipline," in its earlier usage, is defined as (p.89)"to instruct, educate, train." I Compact Edition, Oxford English Dictionary 741 (1971). Furthermore, as a noun, "discipline," which is etymologically "concerned ... with practice or exercises," refers to a field of "learning or knowledge" or the "training effect of experience" that, in relation to arms, is defined as "training in the practice of arms ..." Ibid. Plainly then, by using the term "well-regulated," the Framers had in mind not only the individual ownership and possession of firearms but also the voluntary undertaking of practice and training with such firearms so that each person could become experienced with and competent in the use of firearms and thereby be prepared, should the need arise, to carry out his militia obligation. This conclusion is in complete accord with the comment of Thomas M. Cooley, supra, p. 7.

http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html


We can begin to deduce what well-regulated meant from Alexander Hamilton's words in Federalist Paper No. 29:
The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.
--- The Federalist Papers, No. 29.
Hamilton indicates a well-regulated militia is a state of preparedness obtained after rigorous and persistent training. Note the use of 'disciplining' which indicates discipline could be synonymous with well-trained.
This quote from the Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789 also conveys the meaning of well regulated:
Resolved , That this appointment be conferred on experienced and vigilant general officers, who are acquainted with whatever relates to the general economy, manoeuvres and discipline of a well regulated army.
--- Saturday, December 13, 1777.
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Last edited by dbcooper; 10-11-2012 at 20:33..
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:53   #333
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Originally Posted by Jonesee View Post
2 Points:

I have hunted all my life and have never seen a reason to carry a handgun in the woods or back country. Sure sign of someone who is uncomfortable there or just trying to play make believe.

And. When I carry in a car, the gun is unloaded and packed in a case.
Your second statement is a good idea when traveling to another state. Your first statement is retarded.
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:07   #334
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So individual states can, say, deny women the right to vote?
19th Amendment to the Constitution gave them that right almost a hundred years ago. Maybe you need to read up on your Constitutional Amendments.

State laws don't trump the Constitution (or Amendments).
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:08   #335
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Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
19th Amendment to the Constitution gave them that right almost a hundred years ago. Maybe you need to read up on your Constitutional Amendments.

State laws don't trump the Constitution (or Amendments).
Believe it or not, you aren't arguing with me in this thread.
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:13   #336
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Believe it or not, you aren't arguing with me in this thread.
Cool...I'm sure we'll find some other good stuff to disagree on...this thread has gotten way too off track for me (typical though)...
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:15   #337
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But wasn't the person saying, hey, if you don't like the state laws, don't go there? And then you cite a constitutional right, asking well then can't states keep women from voting? Kind of goofy on your part.

(you were acting as if states can make laws that trump the constitution, which you should know is not true)

But whatever, hope you enjoyed the debate tonight!
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Last edited by Louisville Glocker; 10-11-2012 at 22:20..
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:21   #338
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Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
But wasn't the person saying, hey, if you don't like the state laws, don't go there? And then you cite a constitutional right, asking well then can't states keep women from voting? Kind of goofy on your part.

(you were acting as if states can make laws that trump the constitution, which you should know is not true)
They were asserting that. I was drawing a comparison with the question.

Read on/
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Old 10-12-2012, 00:06   #339
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road construction?
No.

But I should have been intelligent and figured out holding up a slow sign as part of a govt street crew that I could have already been retired on a govt pension while being disabled and collecting 200% of my salary.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:39   #340
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road construction?

150mph road construction would be exaggerating. When I say 150mph, I mean 150mph. Few people drive faster than that just because so few cars go faster than that. But I literally mean 150mph on public roads.

My job requires me to spend a lot of time in my part time living arrangements which have me a few minutes from the A861. (that being autobahn 861).
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:46   #341
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Originally Posted by Jonesee View Post
2 Points:

I have hunted all my life and have never seen a reason to carry a handgun in the woods or back country. Sure sign of someone who is uncomfortable there or just trying to play make believe.

And. When I carry in a car, the gun is unloaded and packed in a case.
Since when does a free man need a "reason" to carry a gun?

I know better than to argue with this kind of mentality, but here I go... I would love to see how comfortable you are engaging a pack of feral dogs (or baboons in my case) at close range in thick riverine bush with a 4 shot bolt action hunting rifle with high powered scope. Luckily my GLOCK 22 wasn't "unloaded and packed in a case" in my car, and I was able to save my dog's life (and perhaps myself from serious injury). But maybe that's just make believe.. This is the Interweb after all...
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:27   #342
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The common use of regulated then isn't what we use it for now.
Untrue, The definition I posted is from Noah Websters dictionary which Webster began work in in 1808 and completed in 1828. Webster himself was a contemporary of the Founding Fathers. Born 1858 died 1843. in 1776 he was 18 years old at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the BOR he was 31.

Any claim that Webster was clueless about what the word regulated meant in his own time (the same time as the FF and the constitution) is simply nonsense.

Quote:
A subjected to rules or restrictions militia being necessary for a free state, the right of the states to own and own arms shall not be infringed.
I have little doubt that the Founding Fathers had no intention of authorizing unregulated Militia subject to no authority, rules or regulations.

The nail in the coffin of a fantasy unregulated militia is that even colonial legislature enacted laws regarding where the arms and ammunition of the militia was to be stored and secured.

This has nothing to do with a "Collective argument". the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right. this was the thinking of the founding fathers and is also what the SCOTUS has ruled.

It is about the fact that the States most certainly DO have the regulatory power to decide who, (No felons) where, and how firearms are carried. if you are expecting the SCOTUS to rule otherwise in any future rulings you are doomed to disappointment.

Outright bans on firearm ownership will be struck down. regulations and restrictions Won't. (unless the restriction is so onerous as to constitute a ban.)
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:03   #343
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Untrue, The definition I posted is from Noah Websters dictionary which Webster began work in in 1898 and completed in 1828. Webster himself was a contemporary of the Founding Fathers. Born 1858 died 1843. in 1776 he was 18 years old at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the BOR he was 31.

Any claim that Webster was clueless about what the word regulated meant in his own time (the same time as the FF and the constitution) is simply nonsense.



I have little doubt that the Founding Fathers had no intention of authorizing unregulated Militia subject to no authority, rules or regulations.

The nail in the coffin of a fantasy unregulated militia is that even colonial legislature enacted laws regarding where the arms and ammunition of the militia was to be stored and secured.

This has nothing to do with a "Collective argument". the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right. this was the thinking of the founding fathers and is also what the SCOTUS has ruled.

It is about the fact that the States most certainly DO have the regulatory power to decide who, (No felons) where, and how firearms are carried. if you are expecting the SCOTUS to rule otherwise in any future rulings you are doomed to disappointment.

Outright bans on firearm ownership will be struck down. regulations and restrictions Won't. (unless the restriction is so onerous as to constitute a ban.)
I don't expect no regulations, I got no problem with no violent felons, no nut cases when we can help it, etc.
The term "reasonable restrictions" is a dangerous one though.

I do believe that an outright ban will happen eventually, just a few justices is all it would take.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:07   #344
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I can say this, I helped a friend lay his murdered 24 yr old daughter to rest 2 weeks ago. His pain was unimaginable. She was killed execution style. I can't say for sure that his pain would have been any less had she been accidentally burned alive. I don't think mine would have been.
That may be your opinion, and others may share it, but the vast majority of people are more traumatized by the murder of a loved one than by accidental or natural death.

That's just human nature.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:13   #345
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That may be your opinion, and others may share it, but the vast majority of people are more traumatized by the murder of a loved one than by accidental or natural death.

That's just human nature.
You've interviewed the vast majority of people?
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:23   #346
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You've interviewed the vast majority of people?


Some things are just obvious to anyone who has lived into late early adolescence. Have you interviewed the vast majority of people to see if having a close family member die is emotionally traumatic?

I suppose you'd demand worldwide photometer tests to prove that it gets dark after sunset everywhere in the world.

Common sense. What a concept. You should look into it.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:31   #347
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I don't expect no regulations, I got no problem with no violent felons, no nut cases when we can help it, etc.
The term "reasonable restrictions" is a dangerous one though.
Very true, if for no other reason than what is "reasonable" can change from one generation to the next.

Quote:
I do believe that an outright ban will happen eventually, just a few justices is all it would take.
I am not that pessimistic, given the SCOTUS has never even come close to ruling outright bans permissible. The Danger is not an outright ban, the danger is an overly broad interpretation of what is "reasonable that would constitute a in practice a ban.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:32   #348
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Some things are just obvious to anyone who has lived into late early adolescence. Have you interviewed the vast majority of people to see if having a close family member die is emotionally traumatic?

I suppose you'd demand worldwide photometer tests to prove that it gets dark after sunset everywhere in the world.

Common sense. What a concept. You should look into it.
Congratulations on reaching late adolescence. Puberty is really something isn't it?

Other than that, you offer nothing but conjecture.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:33   #349
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Complete hogwash, are you really serious? When I am hiked in 3 miles into mt lion country blowing a distress handcall for coyote I want my G20 10mm when Mr. Tom crawls up my back, not a bolt 22-250 with a 22" barrel to try to swing around.
This is precisly why guns like the .475 Linebaugh and .500 Linebaugh were developed, except for larger animals (African animals - both game and just ill-tempered).
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:58   #350
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That may be your opinion, and others may share it, but the vast majority of people are more traumatized by the murder of a loved one than by accidental or natural death.

That's just human nature.
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
You've interviewed the vast majority of people?
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Originally Posted by frizz View Post


Some things are just obvious to anyone who has lived into late early adolescence. Have you interviewed the vast majority of people to see if having a close family member die is emotionally traumatic?

I suppose you'd demand worldwide photometer tests to prove that it gets dark after sunset everywhere in the world.

Common sense. What a concept. You should look into it.
I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but.....

The book A Grief Like No Other: Surviving the Violent Death of Someone You Love (O'hara) seems to support Frizz's claim.
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