GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-06-2012, 07:02   #1
G33Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 271
Just for fun....and very un-scientific

A good friend and myself occasionally shoot various types of ammo in a manner that allows us to recover the bullets for examination. We have shot thru wood, glass, cardboard, and water soaked products. This was our 2nd trip with 10mm included. We were firing into water soaked reams of copier paper that were held tightly together with duct tape. Two reams stood up back to back stopped all hollow point ammo in the 2nd ream, except the .45 ammo...it was recovered in the 1st ream. The reams are very hard on bullets and certainly not meant to be compared to tests using ballistic gel. Not exactly scientific testing but enough info is gathered to form some educated conclusions....more importantly it is a lot of fun.

The 9mm was shot thru a G19, the .40 thru a S&W M+P, the 10mm thru a G20SF, and the .45 ACP thru a Les Baer 1911.

A note in regards to the 10mm ammo: all bullets fragmented so I gave a total recovered gr weight plus a gr weight for the largest piece recovered.

9mm 147 gr Federal LE Tactical HST: Recovered weight = 147 gr. Widest expansion point = 0.727" (This is an anomaly due to a single lead petal that stretch out in an irregular manner). (No fragmentation at all).

9mm 147 gr Speer GD: Recovered weight = 147 gr. Widest expansion point = 0.584" (I believe this expansion to be more normal for a 0.355" bullet). (No fragmentation at all).

.40 S&W 180 gr HST: Recovered weight = 173.9 gr. Widest expansion point = 0.759". (Minimal fragmentation with 6.1gr. not recovered).

.45 ACP 230 gr HST: Recovered weight = 229.6gr. Widest expansion point = 0.837". Extremely minimal fragmentation with 0.4 gr not recovered. (This bullet's expansion was perfect, with beautifully formed petals).

10mm 200 gr Hornady XTP (Underwood): Recovered weight = 192.3 gr (178.2 gr largest piece). Widest expansion point = 0.665". (This is the only 10mm that was fired that didn't exhibit massive fragmentation/bullet failure).

10mm 180 gr Hornady XTP (Underwood): Recovered weight = 160.0 gr (140.0 gr largest piece). Widest expansion point = 0.658". (Note: this was fired into a new, tightly packed ream of paper on our 1st trip, which probably had an effect).

10mm 180 gr Speer GD (Underwood): Recovered weight = 168.3 gr (107.4 gr largest piece). Widest expansion point = 0.638". (Complete bullet failure).

10mm 180 gr Montana Gold (Buffalo Bore): Recovered weight = 170.3 gr (119.9 gr largest piece). Widest expansion = 0.561" (Complete bullet failure with 10 fragments founded, but note that this ammo penetrated the deepest of all 10mm ammo fired).

10mm 165 gr Speer GD (Underwood): Recovered weight = 163.45 gr (109.7 gr largest piece). Widest expansion = 0.619" (Complete bullet failure).

Casual conclusions:

1) The HST bullet performs incredibly well at standard pressures and normal FPS ranges for all calibers shot. (I will be loading my G19 with some of my 147 gr HST ammo from now on).

2) The 200 gr XTP in 10mm maybe the only bullet (from what we have tested) that is holding up to the "hot" 10mm loads.

3) Current design .40 caliber bullets being pushed 200-300 fps faster for 10mm loads will cause some sort of bullet failure....in many cases extreme failure. Again...the paper reams are very, very hard on the bullets. (We considered bullet failure when the copper jacket separated from the lead portion of the bullet and caused major fragmentation).

Questions:

1) How would a .40 caliber HST bullet hold up in a "hot" 10mm load?

2) Is bullet fragmentation a bad thing if the penetration of the largest recovered piece is deep enough to incapacitate? (Example: The Buffalo Bore bullet left a track of sharp copper shards all the way from the 1st start of expansion all the way to the largest piece of recovered lead. This ammo fragmented the greatest out of what we have tested but penetrated the deepest. This would have been a very ugly wound in living tissue).

A final side note: Underwood 10mm 180 gr FMJ zipped thru 4 reams of paper, 2 water-filled gallon jugs, and into 8" of wet sand. Nice to know if a G20 was a back up in 4 legged critter country.

Last edited by G33Man; 10-06-2012 at 07:06..
G33Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 21:40   #2
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,377
It is tough to say as paper is so different for flesh, bones and hollow and solid organs.

But I'd bet the HST would work very well at 1250 - 1300 fps from the 10mm.

Best regards, thanks for the info!
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 19:47   #3
pasky2112
Senior Member
 
pasky2112's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Brevard, FL
Posts: 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by G33Man View Post

Questions:
2) Is bullet fragmentation a bad thing if the penetration of the largest recovered piece is deep enough to incapacitate? (Example: The Buffalo Bore bullet left a track of sharp copper shards all the way from the 1st start of expansion all the way to the largest piece of recovered lead. This ammo fragmented the greatest out of what we have tested but penetrated the deepest. This would have been a very ugly wound in living tissue).

A final side note: Underwood 10mm 180 gr FMJ zipped thru 4 reams of paper, 2 water-filled gallon jugs, and into 8" of wet sand. Nice to know if a G20 was a back up in 4 legged critter country.
If the fragments separated 'late' and penetrated almost to the depth of the core mass of the main projectile, then I would think that is a good thing. More wound tracks are created. It is more likely to damage peripheral organs, vessels and nerves. Some proj,'s are designed to perform like that, actually. If the blt fragged and the frags stopped w/in a cpl inches, then that'd b a different story, IMO.

You (or anyone else) ever pen test Golden Sabers in 10mm hot loads? Was thinking of pulling 165's I have in factory .40's and loading them in 10mm. But I can't shoot 'ground targets' at my range, unfortunately. I'd love to shoot 'stuff' safely rather than paper and steel plates.

Cool info, BTW. Thanks! Any vids?

Last edited by pasky2112; 10-07-2012 at 19:51.. Reason: quote highlite
pasky2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2012, 22:38   #4
Ak.Hiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Homer Alaska
Posts: 2,335
Did you recover the 180 grain FMJ? If so did it deform at all?
Ak.Hiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 00:35   #5
G33Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak.Hiker View Post
Did you recover the 180 grain FMJ? If so did it deform at all?
Yes. No it didn't not deform at all.

Next time we shoot thru paper reams we are going to line up 8 of them to see just how deep this bullet will go thru a hard target. I will also grab a box of the 200 gr FMJ once Underwood has more loaded and in stock.
G33Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 19:52   #6
Teecher45
Senior Member
 
Teecher45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,725
I wonder if some of those loadings in 10mm would perform better shot out of a stock G29?
__________________
The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang.
Teecher45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 11:36   #7
arushus
Biggest Member
 
arushus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NE Oklahoma
Posts: 2,565
Ever consider trying their new 220gr hardcast?
__________________
Glock 20SF Gen 3
Glock 27 NiB-X Gen 3
Glock 19 Gen 4
Spike's Tactical Enhanced CHF 16" Mid-Length M4
These Red Letters Help me find my post!!!
arushus is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 22:04.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,258
360 Members
898 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31