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Old 10-09-2012, 10:34   #21
professorpinki
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
Your view of Christianity is a stellar example of confirmation bias, except that you have no actual evidence. If people believe the correct version of Christianity (which in your mind happens to be the version you advocate) they're doing so because of the will of God.
In which case, God is not just, because he created man to punish him.

God is not a kid holding a magnifying glass upon ants; he is our Heavenly Father. To those who ask, he gives, and just as your earthly father would not give a serpent when you ask for fish, he does not do the same: he gives truth, knowledge, and the ability to repent unto Christ for all those with a sincere heart and a contrite spirit.
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
This is exactly right.

We are told to preach Christ, and Him Crucified, but conversion isn't our responsibility; it's the Holy Spirit's.

Like Fr. Pacwa says regarding converting others: That's Management's job. We're in sales.
And it is our job as followers of Christ to listen to the Holy Spirit that he left here so that we may help in the work, that we may thrust in our sickles and harvest.
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Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
I was just looking at it from an end game perspective. I would think christisans and the christian god would consider the saving of souls more important than anything else.
Believing that how the message is delivered doesn't matter, is not realistic.

1) Saving souls is the highest priority.
2) Some methods will cause people to not be saved.
If it was my responsibility I would be looking into this. I would think my boss would be unhappy with me doing a bad job when I know I could do a better job.
Devote yourself fully to the work and listen to God's will as proclaimed by the scriptures and the stirrings of the Holy Spirit. It will guide you as you need to be guided for each individual in each moment. Yesterday you are not the man you are today: you've forgotten things, learned new things, and are emotionally in a different state of mind. Yesterday you may have gotten ticked off because your car wouldn't start and you got to work late. Today you may be happy because you found out it was a quick fix; all you had to do was reconnect the battery terminal to the wire that wore loose over time and needed to be re-clamped back down, and so you got to work early and relaxed for a quick minute before beginning those tasks by which you make your keep. Certain behaviors may guide us and remain throughout, but we do not always follow them unconditionally. We must then find out how to make our own lives align with Christ's directive to become like Him, and we must then find out how to bring each individual soul to Christ. Sometimes a thesis is better than a scream, sometimes a scream better than a thesis, sometimes our mere helping hand is enough to cause others to pause and reconsider their own lives, to come to the church and fold of Christ and become a true follower.

I've got my own sins, but I'm a workin' on them. And because I've got that knowledge, I have special knowledge on how to help others that I've learned and earned the hard way. And also, because of my experiences and commitments I'm suited to help people in a way that I can't even comprehend, just as the commitments of others have helped me in ways too large to number out here on GT.
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:03   #22
High-Gear
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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
Howdy AM.

The thread was a question to Christians about evangelism methods. I tried to answer his question (and would kind of like to know why he asked it -- maybe he'll share). I wasn't engaged in apologetics. It wasn't a defense of Christianity, so, no need to attack the defense that wasn't there. It was a behind the scenes look at evangelism.

No offense, but you're helping me make a point I asserted a few posts ago, about how the atheists here pop up to say "God doesn't exist" regardless of thread context. You felt the need to remind me that what I believe is vaporous, though I hadn't asked for an opinion on it. It was a... free gift. Atheist grace.

I saw a thread about atheism. I'm going to read it because I want to know. It's not a vacuum of belief, it's not a 'replacement' belief system, so it must be something else. I'll go check it out. Promise I won't comment.
Since this thread is about the most effective way to "save the lost", and as atheists we would be in that group, I would think our opinion would be relevant.

With logical and reasonable people, scare tactics do not work. You can not support your premis with facts. Ramble on and on about burning in hell, we simply don't care about your fairy tales.

Now on the other hand if you make an appeal to emotion, you might be able to sway a person to allow his feelings to over ride his logic. I think this is why I hear many christians say they can not justify their belief, it just makes them feel better. "You will understand the bible when the holy spirit is in your heart.".

Personally I find the sappy "Jesus loves you!" tactic pretty annoying, but I'm sure it will work on some. Especially during traumatic events in their life.

Just my $.02
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Old 10-09-2012, 20:42   #23
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With logical and reasonable people, scare tactics do not work. You can not support your premis with facts. Ramble on and on about burning in hell, we simply don't care about your fairy tales.
That's just mean-spirited. I don't mind debating ideology, but I try not to be insulting. My fairy tales? Mine and... millions more before me. They weren't all as smart as you guys, but they weren't all idiots either.

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Originally Posted by High-Gear View Post
Personally I find the sappy "Jesus loves you!" tactic pretty annoying, but I'm sure it will work on some. Especially during traumatic events in their life.
I too cringe when I see those bumperstickers.

I addressed that very thing in a recent thread and ran a brother out of here. Jesus does not love everyone. He loves His own, and is angry with the rest. The rest are said to be "treasuring up wrath" against themselves. Anyway, in His High Priestly prayer, He specifically says He is not praying for the "world," but only for those who the Father gave him. In John 6, He intentionally says things to drive people away. In Romans, the rebellious are given over to their sins to increase their judgment. This is a smattering of verses, but it makes the point.
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Old 10-09-2012, 22:13   #24
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Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
I was just looking at it from an end game perspective. I would think christisans and the christian god would consider the saving of souls more important than anything else.
Believing that how the message is delivered doesn't matter, is not realistic.

1) Saving souls is the highest priority.
2) Some methods will cause people to not be saved.
If it was my responsibility I would be looking into this. I would think my boss would be unhappy with me doing a bad job when I know I could do a better job.
Frank,

I wanted to address this as succinctly as possible. Yes, a saved soul is the highest priority -- it certainly is the highest priority of the soul saved. We're told that angels rejoice when a soul is saved. It's a big deal.

In Acts, we're told that on the day of Pentecost "as many as were appointed to eternal life, believed." God prepares those He chooses to save by regenerating them -- He brings them back to spiritual life -- they are born again. A person that was formerly indisposed to respond to teh gospel is suddenly disposed. The Bible, which was a gibberish bookj to him befoire, is suddenly clear. The God he resisted before, he suddenly loves. This is a side note, but regeneration precedes -- it does not follow -- the exercise of the faith they are given, and promptly return, to the justification (the saving) of their souls.

The parable of the sower gives us insight into the process. Some seed fell on hard ground, and did not take root. Some seed fell among thorns and was choked out. But some seed fell on 'good ground'. We're told the 'good ground' yields a great harvest. This is a farming metaphor. Farmers don't just toss seed out and hope a crop grows -- they prepare the soil. They dig up the rocks, pull the weeds, fertilize, etc. I mention this because it applies to preaching and salvation. Jesus says the seed in this parable is the Word of God. You need a prepared heart (a regenerated heart) and the Word of God. When it is preached -- ideally with some law and some gospel -- the person appointed to salvation on that day at that time, "chosen from before the foundation of the world," responds, believes, and is saved. Forever.

So the method matters less than you think. Hell fire or God is love, as long as the real Christ is preached, the regenerated person will respond and believe. I don't favor threats of judgment when I share the gospel, but I don't make Jesus into someone desperate for friends either. He is the King of Kings. He does us the favor -- not the other way around. It is a mistake to try to be 'relevant' to the culture in evangelism. Having muscle guys tear phone books in half to appeal to 10 yr old boys; having loud bands mimicing the popular culture to attract young adults; all this is unnecessary, and sometimes embarrassing. It's possible to make converts to a movement -- people not appointed to eternal life, who will follow your group because they have a need to belong.

The Word of God has been saving predestinated souls through the life-giving Spirit of God for thousands of years, and it doesn't need help.
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Old 10-09-2012, 23:40   #25
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That's just mean-spirited. I don't mind debating ideology, but I try not to be insulting. My fairy tales? Mine and... millions more before me. They weren't all as smart as you guys, but they weren't all idiots either.
No sir, telling someone they will burn forever for not qccepting your mythology is mean spirited. Just because a lot of people believe does not make it true, nor does it make it worthy of respect.
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Old 10-10-2012, 18:59   #26
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Sorry you feel that way, High Gear, but I think your issue is with the message, not the messengers. You were dismissive of the messenger.

Last edited by brokenprism; 10-10-2012 at 19:02..
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Old 10-10-2012, 21:35   #27
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Sorry you feel that way, High Gear, but I think your issue is with the message, not the messengers. You were dismissive of the messenger.
I used the term "your" when referring to fairytales as a collective one referring to those who would browbeat with threats of hellfire. I did not mean it to single you out personally. I can see how you took it as a personal attack, but that was not the intent.


I do not understand how it is offensive to you. You assert your beliefs are true. I think they are fairy tales, stories, fiction. I was being polite using that term, rather than a more graphic one to describe the lack of regard I hold for the various god myths.

Personally I don't care if a person is "offended". A person's level of offense is not a valid argument. Offense can not be given, only taken. If you choose to be offended by such a vanilla statement, I can not control that. Just understand, it makes about as much sense as muslims claiming offense when a person draws a picture of muhammed.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:33   #28
SDGlock23
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Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
Lets say there is a person who is a "fire and brimstone" type evangelical. Lets say he learns that it is more effective to be a "jesus loves you" type evangelical. "jesus loves you" will save more people than "turn or burn."
Is this person now obligated to try to change or suffer for failing.
It's much easier for a person who might be living a life full of sin to hear how much God loves them, which is true, but it does little to actually help them. They go away feeling as if God's all encompassing love means that they're okay in the eyes of God, since in their earthly imaginations they assume His love of them means that He will tolerate their wicked lifestyle.

Where if they hear the turn or burn message they're likely to come away thinking that God is mean and cruel, which isn't true, but He is Righteous and will judge all men.

The love message alone I think is the wrong way to go about it, but so is the turn and burn message. You have to effectively mix the two of them because they are both true.
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