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Old 10-06-2012, 05:27   #41
Bren
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Originally Posted by Beware Owner View Post
They didn't use the term illegal immigrant back then, but...
Because there was no immigration law back then, so there were no "illegal" immigrants.

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This territory didn't belong to the colonists, it wasn't given to them...
No, it wasn't given - they took it. That makes them invaders, but not "illegal" immigrants.

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You don't need a law to tell someone what belongs to them...
Maybe not, but you need a "LAW" for that belonging to be "legal" or "Illegal" since that's what those words mean.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:10   #42
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They took over something that didn't belong to them, even if there was no written law, it's the same basic principle.
There is no law saying you can't hand over your real estate deed to the local native American group of your choice.

Might even be a tax write off, if you do it right.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:33   #43
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I saw a car today in Illinois. It made me thing of you. It had a Texas plate, and a sticker that said "Combat Medic".
I used to train and lead combat medics. Typical medical platoon in an armor or infantry battalion has a PA, a medical admin lieutenant, 28 - 40 combat medics, and an MD (but only when deployed).

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Old 10-06-2012, 07:10   #44
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They took over something that didn't belong to them, even if there was no written law, it's the same basic principle.
Is that really a bad thing? Using your principle you could even argue that Britain doesn't belong to the Anglo-Saxons...
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:50   #45
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I would like to add the following:

My forefathers were native Americans (well, some of them anyway). The land WAS taken, in any sense or description of the word.

However, ONLY in modern America is this somehow considered a "crime" ir some other immoral behavior. For thousands of years, land is taken by conquering forces and claimed as their own. It's been that was since the beginning of time. I've never read once where the Romans were bashing their own for "stealing" land from the Germanians; it was and remains the way life is. The strong survive, thrive, and write the history books. Boo hoo.

ONLY in modern America, with our generations of schooling insisting that we should abhor our own existence for the alleged "sins" of our founding fathers, can what occurred be considered anything other than what it was - a stronger force taking the land from a weaker one and claiming it as their own.

Too, ONLY in modern America have you seen a modern government attempt in many ways to rectify the perceived wrongs, rebuild the land it conquered, and hand it back over after the fact. And oddly, the more we do, the more we get accused of being imperialists.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:16   #46
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No it wasn't,It was built by folk that wanted a new start.



No my friend it's not,this thread is trying ta apply laws from England ta the "Founding" of this land.



It wasn't,it was considered ta be what you can hold is yours.From the original settlement and beyond.



Disagree,Texas reclaimed from the Spaniards when?.The colonists started fighting when?.



Disagree my friend,tribal law existed well before the "written" law did.It was "tribe" wide yet it existed.Most tribes had the same basic code/s.




Ayep.



Not really,those founders were motivated by principles,the Illegals are here following the American dream.What's the difference?,the costs.Our founders set up the system,folk have been allowed ta manipulate it.




It's called "squatters",that was the system.No one claimed,it's yours.



They did have a "concept" of range/Hunting grounds.CG,They knew their limits.



White men killed more Natives by infection than rifle.As I've said above,I disagree with most of the assumptions I've read.'08.
The native infections were unintentional.

While taking possession of South America, Spain stopped this:

"Michael Harner, in his 1977 article The Enigma of Aztec Sacrifice, estimates the number of persons sacrificed in central Mexico in the 15th century as high as 250,000 per year. Fernando de Alva Cortés Ixtlilxochitl, a Mexica descendant and the author of Codex Ixtlilxochitl, estimated that one in five children of the Mexica subjects was killed annually. Victor Davis Hanson argues that a claim by Don Carlos Zumárraga of 20,000 per annum is "more plausible."[43] Other scholars believe that, since the Aztecs often tried to intimidate their enemies, it is more likely that they could have inflated the number as a propaganda tool.[44] The same can be said for Bernal Díaz's inflated calculations when, in a state of visual shock, he grossly miscalculated the number of skulls at one of the seven Tenochtitlan tzompantlis. The counter argument is that both the Aztecs and Diaz were very precise in the recording of the many other details of Aztec life, and inflation or propaganda would be unlikely. According the Florentine Codex, fifty years before the conquest the Aztecs burnt the skulls of the former tzompantli. Mexican archeologist Eduardo Matos Moctezuma has unearthed and studied some tzompantlis."

Wikipedia
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:27   #47
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Ignorance is not your friend.

The Natives at the time did not have a concept of "possesion" as we know it. Their "territory" was limited to what they were standing on basically. Personal possesions were also shared.

Quit looking at history through the glasses of today's values/morals/concepts.
Point of order there territory moved with the herds of animals they hunted.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:33   #48
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As someone noted above, history is written by the victors.

The Apache were keeping and trading slaves long before they themselves got shipped to reservations.


.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:49   #49
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As someone noted above, history is written by the victors.

The Apache were keeping and trading slaves long before they themselves got shipped to reservations.


.
Here in NM after the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 when the Spanish were driven out, the Apache beat the stuffing out of the local Pueblo Indians. They were begging the Spanish to come back, which they did.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:59   #50
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Point of order there territory moved with the herds of animals they hunted.
Indeed and they were then standing on that land. They didn't run back to see if anyone was trespassing on the land they left three days ago


And to furhter debunk a myth before it gets started, several "tribes" were non-migratory. For instance the Athabascan speakers on my local region were completely sedintary in fixed "clan" villages, but they had no idea of a "territory" belonging to them, persay. The divisions between themselves and other tribes were actually genetic boundaries since it was custom to "steal' a wife from another tribe and hence, gene pool.

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Old 10-06-2012, 13:23   #51
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I would like to add the following:

My forefathers were native Americans (well, some of them anyway). The land WAS taken, in any sense or description of the word.

However, ONLY in modern America is this somehow considered a "crime" ir some other immoral behavior. For thousands of years, land is taken by conquering forces and claimed as their own. It's been that was since the beginning of time. I've never read once where the Romans were bashing their own for "stealing" land from the Germanians; it was and remains the way life is. The strong survive, thrive, and write the history books. Boo hoo.

ONLY in modern America, with our generations of schooling insisting that we should abhor our own existence for the alleged "sins" of our founding fathers, can what occurred be considered anything other than what it was - a stronger force taking the land from a weaker one and claiming it as their own.

Too, ONLY in modern America have you seen a modern government attempt in many ways to rectify the perceived wrongs, rebuild the land it conquered, and hand it back over after the fact. And oddly, the more we do, the more we get accused of being imperialists.

Good points.

Where I am sitting, right now, was the sight of some of the most brutal fighting between White and Indians that ever occurred in the history of this Country, but I will bet not one in a thousand members of this forum ever heard of it. It happened befor the telegraph, before the transcontinental railroad, "way out west beyond civilization" some of it did, in very distorted reports, make it back to the east coast but by in large most here would be surprised to know that within a couple miles of my home is a mass grave for a large percentage of the white citizens of the former town, killed in one night, or that a couple of miles the other direction is a canyon where 13 of the indians captured a month later, were take while tied up and executed and their bodies dumped in the canyon.

Our history is rife with conflict, my area particularly, but interstingly the descendants of both sides live side by side today with very little issue. If you ever come through my area, stop and read the "Historical Markers" about that era along the highway. I was asked to re write the text on them
several years ago because both groups of historical representatives agreed that I would do the "fairest" job.

The point I am trying to make is that many people get along fine with the past, it is generally someone trying to get something out of it in the present that throws the bollocks on things.
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Old 10-06-2012, 14:00   #52
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This territory didn't belong to the colonists, it wasn't given to them...



REally? Where did they apply for their visas?
History is full of larger, stronger cultures seizing land from smaller, weaker cultures. The English, French, and Spanish came to North America and bought and/or fought their way into ownership of various regions. They then sent colonists to establish their culture in place of the native culture. The colonists were legal immigrants, establishing new states under the laws of their home countries.

Was it "nice", or "fair"? No. Was it legal? Yes. Several nations defeated lesser nations, therefore the laws of the victor nations rule.

What we face now are individuals from Central and South American countries deliberately crossing into the United States against our laws. They aren't soldiers conducting military operations to seize ground, nor are they diplomats offering to buy land. They are criminals here in violation of American law, and they need to go.
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Old 10-06-2012, 19:18   #53
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I thought liberals had stopped using the term illegal alien because they said it was racist?


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