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Old 10-17-2012, 01:38   #76
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Originally Posted by Dadof4 View Post
No it is not rational because some deity said so.
Then why cite it in your original example, if it doesn't provide a contrast to a God ordained morality? Under what conditions is racism a rational basis for government or morality?
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:44   #77
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If everything is relative and there is no absolute morality, the strong imposing her will on the rest by shooting those who disagree in the head is just as valid.
You may arguably have presented a case for why a universal morality would be a good thing. However, you haven't presented any evidence that it actually does exist.
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If you disagree, she'll shoot you in the head too and the universe won't even burp. If we're all just an accident of nature, it doesn't matter who shoots who.
Does it matter, in a universal sense? Perhaps not, the universe continues on no matter who shoots who. On the other hand, it matters very much to society and for that reason, society bands together as a body to enforce a code of rules for conducting oneself within that society. At times, the cloak of religion is used to lend weight to these rules but the argument for their universality is undermined by the changes in the code from society to society and through time.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:05   #78
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Then why cite it in your original example, if it doesn't provide a contrast to a God ordained morality? Under what conditions is racism a rational basis for government or morality?
I think I didn't make myself clear or you misunderstood or something. I think you think I think something I don't think, or something. in any case I don't understand the question.


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Old 10-17-2012, 08:05   #79
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At least for this second principle, almost every major religion has incorporated it in some form or another. It's hardly unique to christianity.
Agreed


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Old 10-17-2012, 08:21   #80
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
You may arguably have presented a case for why a universal morality would be a good thing. However, you haven't presented any evidence that it actually does exist.
Does it matter, in a universal sense? Perhaps not, the universe continues on no matter who shoots who.
Exactly right. I think you're the only one who understands what I was getting at. I wasn't even arguing for the existence of an objective morality or for theism. I was pointing out that any attempt to say that the govt or laws "ought" to be such and such is futile if there is no objective morality. If I want to act like a sociopath, no atheist has any objective grounds to say my behavior is morally bad. Morality is an illusion, as Dawkins points out. So I'm telling atheists to own their world view and quit using words like "ought" and "should" and "just" and "unjust" in a moral sense. If our families are shipwrecked on an island, I can kill your offspring so my offspring get the resources, and there is nothing "bad" about that if there is no objective morality.


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Old 10-17-2012, 08:43   #81
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Syclone538 posted a link to a talk by Sam Harris attempting to make a scientific case for objective morality. He never made the strong case however but only made a weak appeal to "common sense" and "well being" as someone points out during the Q&A. Hear Harris make the same argument in a debate at Notre Dam with William Lane Craig on YouTube. I can't post the link from my phone but just search "The God Debate II: Harris vs. Craig". Very interesting.


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Old 10-17-2012, 08:50   #82
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Yeah there are probably 10 videos of him either giving a talk that is almost exactly the same, or a debate where his half is the same.
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