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Old 10-06-2012, 07:25   #26
MarcDW
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I would catch up with the guy and hit him with the barrel or stock from behind over the head.
Multiple times until he drops and lets go of the child.
I would avoid shooting him specially if he ran away (without the child now)!
It would not be self defense at this time and hard to defend in court!
People are too eager to shoot others (even if they deserve it)!
It is not a pleasant experience and the aftermath is even worse!
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:49   #27
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
I'm not commenting on the scenario, but shotguns only really shine in two roles:

1) Breaching
2) Non-lethal applications


...oh, and ducks and clays and that stuff too.
?? What??

A shotgun is a poor choice for HD?

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Old 10-06-2012, 07:52   #28
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So...I was talking with a like minded friend on Facebook. I've been meeting like an unbelievable amount of VERY pro gun people on FB lately, so much so that I haven't even been in gun forums much. But anyway, me and these folks were sitting around talking about how much we just don't give a damn what the anti gunners say about us having guns to protect ourselves with, or what laws they get passed. There are bad people in this world, and if it is between us and them, or them and a member of our family, they're going on a one way trip....to wherever land.

And I told the lady about a close call I had in the city I live in (not the only one), and said I live in a major city and that's just how it is in the big city, things happen, you have to watch your back, and be prepared because life around here is anything but predictable. Then I said but it doesn't matter..because bad things can happen literally any time, any place, regardless of location, population size, or gun laws.

So she told me that a few years ago, one of her girlfriends who lives down the street (in a VERY small town, and rural area), was in the bathroom of her house or something, and her little girl was in the living room. Well out of nowhere some piece of garbage in human form busts through her backdoor, grabs her small daughter, and takes off running out of the house with her. Well....momma had a shotgun.

She ran out after the fool and told him if he didn't put her girl down he was going bye bye. Needless to say, the guy was convinced. He put her down.

I told her at first...ya know....if a shotgun is all you have, and a kidnapper (pedophile obviously, and would be child rapist/killer) has your child....do what you gotta do, but truthfully a shotgun might not be the best weapon for that scenario, because of the danger of stray pellets hitting the little girl if she had to shoot. I told her a revolver or semi might be best.

Then I stopped and was like...ya know, on 2nd thought...maybe a shotgun would be PERFECT for a scenario like that....if you shoot at their legs, made SURE you aim low. Then you'd DEFINITELY hit the fool, and not endanger the child.

So we pondered on that for a bit and I decided this would be the best place to get a general consensus on the best weapon for that type of nightmare scenario. Because I don't know about you guys, but I have at a pretty close reach a shotgun, a 9mm and maybe even a 357 magnum. But maybe not..who knows?

Anyway....I'd like to hear what most people say about this, because that is an interesting question, that obviously I pray nobody has to experience, but it might be helpful to just prepare for the worst, yet hope for the best.
Shoot the hostage!

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Old 10-06-2012, 07:55   #29
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
I'm not commenting on the scenario, but shotguns only really shine in two roles:

1) Breaching
2) Non-lethal applications


...oh, and ducks and clays and that stuff too.
That has to be one of the most retarded posts I have ever seem on GT.

Ever see a bad guy continue to do bad things with 9-12 OO buckshot pellets in his chest?

Ever see how well a 12 ga slug takes the starch out of some one leaving them in a limp pile on the floor?

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Last edited by vafish; 10-06-2012 at 07:58..
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:36   #30
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Originally Posted by BEER View Post
i don't know about the lady in your story bu i'm pretty sure im in decent enough shape to out sprint a guy trying to run while carrying a struggling child.
Unfortunately it seems that many in the gun community don't give a rats behind about physical conditioning, rather making sure that they have enough ammo (10k+ rounds) for a SHTF moment.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:15   #31
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Absolutely take the shot.

Never let a child get away with a kidnapper.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:17   #32
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?? What??

A shotgun is a poor choice for HD?


Yup.

I just said it.

It's true too.

Shotguns (even autos) are extremely manipulation intensive weapons to field. It takes a lot of practice and disciplined training regimen to effectively wield a shotgun under stress.

They are limited in capacity, and unless you're one of the very few folks that runs an SBS in a home defense role, long and unwieldy in close quarters.

The strength of the shotgun is its versatility in being able to swap loads, but outside of buck, slug, and non lethal the others don't come into play (specialized breaching rounds are not necessary, in my opinion).

Most untrained people believe that the pattern is much larger than it really is, mitigating the need to properly aim. They also never seem to understand the distances involved in CQB. Often times in shouldering their 20 inch guns with mag extensions they've covered a significant percentage of that distance!

There are also recoil management issues for smaller/ lighter users.

Unless you desire a nonlethal option in your escalation of force, or you plan on breaching in and around your own home, ther are much better options.

Oh, but the one thing they are good for in home defense- "If'n you rack a dang ol pump shotgun in yer house..."


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Old 10-06-2012, 10:48   #33
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I'd have to disagree. When I think of my personal home DEFENSE, there is no worry about how long it is or moving around with it. None of this ninja-roll / clearing techniques / gun-battle crap. I retreat to my bedroom, aim the shotgun at the choke-point entryway, and pray they change their mind since someone is home. I don't see how a shotgun is any better/worse than a rifle in MY situation. Maybe yours is different.

IMHO, these "stories" about people not knowing how to use X gun vs. Y gun probably deal with familiarity. As in, they don't know how to use the shotgun, therefore they fail to use it properly. I've never shot an AR. Toss one to me and tell me to defend life/property with it, and I'd laugh in your face. But I know how to use my Mossberg.

As for the OP: I wouldn't take that shot. I'd chase and tackle.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:02   #34
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:23   #35
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considering that i use a pump action shotgun more then any other weapon ill take it over any tricked out tactical toy you got. for me its all about familiarity. i am not going to be running around my little apartment, that takes 5 seconds, in a home invasion. so a pump action like the ones i hunt with just makes sense.
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Old 10-06-2012, 15:03   #36
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The 12 gauge pump shotgun has been and will always be the best choice for home defense. If the sound of a shell being loaded doesn't scare off the burglar, then he's probably a crackhead that needs a fix, and has nothing to lose.

TGG
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Old 10-06-2012, 16:18   #37
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Originally Posted by The_Gun_Guru View Post
If the sound of a shell being loaded doesn't scare off the burglar, then he's probably a crackhead that needs a fix, and has nothing to lose.

TGG
Racking the pump, while not a proper escalation of force, does only one thing- it telegraphs to the intruder that it just became a life-or-death situation.

If it's me, and I have my long gun, I'd probably dump a mag in the direction of the sound of the racking action, through the wall, without care for the building or its occupants.

If the perp has a pistol, it's now a race to get lead on target, with no point in intimidation, hostage taking, or threats.

If the perp has a knife, best to get his stab on with the quickness as soon as he sees that barrel break the plane of any portal... or just rush the sound and go spider monkey style with blade in hand.

If the perp is unarmed... well, IMO the best bet is to hide and get ready for the fight of your life.

Very few professional criminals are going to run for the door and catch a slug to the back.

You just don't rack pumps or yell, "IIIIIIIIIIIIII've got a GUN!" in those situations.

Feel free to pontificate on other low-percentage scenarios though...

Last edited by KalashniKEV; 10-06-2012 at 16:19..
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Old 10-06-2012, 16:40   #38
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Racking the pump, while not a proper escalation of force, does only one thing- it telegraphs to the intruder that it just became a life-or-death situation.

If it's me, and I have my long gun, I'd probably dump a mag in the direction of the sound of the racking action, through the wall, without care for the building or its occupants.

If the perp has a pistol, it's now a race to get lead on target, with no point in intimidation, hostage taking, or threats.

If the perp has a knife, best to get his stab on with the quickness as soon as he sees that barrel break the plane of any portal... or just rush the sound and go spider monkey style with blade in hand.

If the perp is unarmed... well, IMO the best bet is to hide and get ready for the fight of your life.

Very few professional criminals are going to run for the door and catch a slug to the back.

You just don't rack pumps or yell, "IIIIIIIIIIIIII've got a GUN!" in those situations.

Feel free to pontificate on other low-percentage scenarios though...

LMAO


You are funny!

I hope some ghetto POS breaks in tonight so I can post pictures of the aftermath. You better come over and help me clean up the mess, ok?




Too funny!


TGG
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Old 10-06-2012, 18:27   #39
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I'm not sure how you could shoot the BG with anything while he was carrying a child.
I don't see where that would be very difficult, as either a choice or a skill.

Not sure exactly what you think the child has to lose, but her chances of surviving are better if she gets shot than if he gets away with her. How often do you see stranger-kidnapped children rescued hours or days later, compared to not?
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Old 10-06-2012, 18:45   #40
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...

The problem, in this scenario, is that if you shoot them in the back, you stand a very good chance of penetrating the chest of the perp, and wounding the child being carried.
I was wondering if anyone else was thinking this. Shooting the bad guy in the back is a terrible idea in this circumstance.

Run. A parent running down a bad guy who is kidnapping their child could outrun Usain Bolt, especially since the bad guy is weighed down by the child.

If you can get close enough to shoot the legs or another safe target, do it.
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Old 10-06-2012, 18:52   #41
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I don't see where that would be very difficult, as either a choice or a skill.

Not sure exactly what you think the child has to lose, but her chances of surviving are better if she gets shot than if he gets away with her. How often do you see stranger-kidnapped children rescued hours or days later, compared to not?
The only problem with that is what if you shoot your child in a vital area such as an artery? If you live in BFE, then you just killed your child, and that would be worse than a stranger killing her!

Taking the shot is an absolute last resort......PERIOD!!!!!!


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Old 10-06-2012, 18:57   #42
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I thought a lot about this scenario and decided I would chase him down and administer punishment he hadn't even dreamed of. Then I would answer for it
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Old 10-06-2012, 19:43   #43
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I'm with the "club him over the head with the shotgun" camp.
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Old 10-06-2012, 20:09   #44
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Originally Posted by The_Gun_Guru View Post
The only problem with that is what if you shoot your child in a vital area such as an artery? If you live in BFE, then you just killed your child, and that would be worse than a stranger killing her!

Taking the shot is an absolute last resort......PERIOD!!!!!!


TGG
I disagree. A relatively quick death from a bullet wound beats days of rape and torture to a slow death. I know what I would pick for my child. No it's not a comfortable shot but not every choice is a fun one.

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Old 10-06-2012, 20:30   #45
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Why do the AR guys think a shotgun is too much gun and takes years of pratice to use in a self defense situation but thay can whoop out their AR and shoot the BG right between the eyes.
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Old 10-06-2012, 20:45   #46
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I would probably take the shot, probably without giving the perp the advantage of a warning first, also.

A shotgun may not be the BEST tool for this exact scenario, but it is often the best tool for the unknown scenario, so is likely going to be a common gun to need to do the job.

Dragging/carrying a child changes the "exposed" mass. We still aim for the center of the exposed mass. A shotgun is still quite effective for shooting where the feet are in contact with the ground. Even skipping some pellets and debris off the ground is going to have an extreme psychological effect regardless of the damage it may or may not do.

I'm in the camp that will take the shot. If I was the child, I'd damn sure prefer it, too.
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Old 10-06-2012, 21:51   #47
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Shooting the kidnapper while he is holding the child is probably about as dangerous as letting the kidnapper leave intact with the child. Sadly the survival rate of the child goes downhill substantially either way. The shotgun may not be the ideal choice.
Do NOT let the child go!!!!!!!

IF he does not comply and runs then you have a few options.

Perp will not go far with shot to the feet. Buckshot or bird shot. Aim low=very low. Even if not hit he will probably drop the child at the shot.

If you have patterened the shotgun and know where it hits and what the shot dispersion is then a very high shot (i.e. top of the head) is also possible if he is stationary and in the process of trying to kill the child. I patterned an old Mossberg 12 ga many years ago with a long barrel and a fixed mod choke. It was my only long gun at the time and was kept for home defense. At 25yards measured it would place all 9 pellets from my OO buck shot within a 5 inch circle. I was suprised at how tight and consistant the pattern was. it was also right on for the sights as well.

That shotgun was put to use once (with #6 shot) when someone was trying to gain entry to attack my wife a few minutes before I arrived home from work. Perp was not shot or found (not for lack of trying to track the bastard, police were 30min away back then) but he never returned or showed up at the hospital with birdshot wounds. Hope he wet himself when he stumbled through the cornfields!

Lived way out in the country back then when people took care of things locally.

Last edited by Wurger; 10-06-2012 at 21:55..
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Old 10-06-2012, 21:53   #48
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i would probably take the shot, probably without giving the perp the advantage of a warning first, also.

A shotgun may not be the best tool for this exact scenario, but it is often the best tool for the unknown scenario, so is likely going to be a common gun to need to do the job.

Dragging/carrying a child changes the "exposed" mass. We still aim for the center of the exposed mass. A shotgun is still quite effective for shooting where the feet are in contact with the ground. Even skipping some pellets and debris off the ground is going to have an extreme psychological effect regardless of the damage it may or may not do.

I'm in the camp that will take the shot. If i was the child, i'd damn sure prefer it, too.
+1.......
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Old 10-06-2012, 21:59   #49
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I may or may not have shot him but after I got my child back I would have beaten him half to death if I didn't shoot him.
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Old 10-06-2012, 22:06   #50
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The only problem with that is what if you shoot your child in a vital area such as an artery? If you live in BFE, then you just killed your child, and that would be worse than a stranger killing her!

Taking the shot is an absolute last resort......PERIOD!!!!!!


TGG
So letting the perp rape, torture and kill your child would make you feel better than taking the chance of stopping her attacker with a low probability of injuring/killing her in the attempt?

That is the kind of thing I can see someone jumping off a bridge for in the aftermath, if he had just let them go because he didn't have the ideal shot.

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