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Old 10-02-2012, 18:20   #1
Glock!9
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Phila. officer in punching video on desk duty

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/feature?...cal&id=8832022
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:33   #2
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I don't know what she did to cause such a response!! Maybe an old girlfriend?

Took her out, and I don't mean on a date.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:43   #3
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Save the bandwidth.

Pick the following letter for your favorite response:

a). All cops are guilty of everything or something and this video proves it! Let's have a lynching!

b). The video doesn't look good. The person is in a wheelchair and no one in a wheelchair is capable of anything other than rainbows and unicorns.

c). Who really knows what went on prior to the video clip? How about some background and facts?

d). The video doesn't look good because the handicapped person swung first. The DT was deserved for the physical attack.

e). Kill 'em all. Humanity sucks. Let the Creator sort it out.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:56   #4
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f) It happened in Killadelphia. Who cares?
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Old 10-02-2012, 19:07   #5
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Old 10-02-2012, 19:12   #6
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Equality...
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Old 10-02-2012, 19:13   #7
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Old 10-02-2012, 22:26   #8
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I think that was a lucky hit on the officer's part (white shirt = Command officer?) ... even he looked surprised when she went down!

Judging by her celebratory hopping just prior to Ofc. White approaching her, methinks there was clearly something that transpired before the few seconds that we see in the link.
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Old 10-02-2012, 22:48   #9
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Well, that PR flag went down quick. Did I see some fluids flying at the officers there?
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Old 10-03-2012, 00:10   #10
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^^ Looked like a beer bottle full, that Ofc. White could have thought came from that female too.......
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:22   #11
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Maybe someone from Philly can chime in. I heard that someone else threw something at the officer and he thought it was the girl he punched since she turned away. Not saying she didn't throw something either, but the liquid was from someone else.

Regardless of the cause... My only question is why didn't he at least try to grab her? Here, that'd probably get you written up depending on the liquid. If it was gas, alcohol, acid, alkali, etc you'd be good. Water or beer and we'd be taking a few days off.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:47   #12
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Big man to punch that small woman in the mouth. Big man.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:08   #13
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Watch the video again. On the left side, another person (wearing a black sweat shirt) slings liquid of some kind towards the officer. It looks like, as he turns around, he might have thought it was the woman he punched, throwing something on him.

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Old 10-03-2012, 10:14   #14
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Regardless, how is punching a woman in the face the correct response?

I'm usually on the cops side but really? He couldn't place her under arrest?

Department deserves the heat if they won't fire this guy.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:17   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 View Post
Regardless, how is punching a woman in the face the correct response?

I'm usually on the cops side but really? He couldn't place her under arrest?

Department deserves the heat if they won't fire this guy.
It seems from comments i read the chief agrees with you.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:06   #16
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Looks like he tried to grab her.









By the face.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:21   #17
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Equality...
I have to agree with you on that.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:28   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 View Post
I'm usually on the cops side but really? He couldn't place her under arrest?
Uh, he did place her under arrest. I won't go into all the details of Use of Force / Control Tactics, but "Hard Empty Hand" level includes everything from a wrist grab to a punch in the face, i.e. if one is justified then so is the other. Even if it doesn't look great on video.

It's easy to MMQB the guy based on 36 seconds of video played over, and over, and over again. But the burden will be (or should be) the officer's surroundings and reasonable belief at the time of the incident. Any civilian would want the same consideration if they were accused of misconduct or a crime of any sort.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:52   #19
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Uh, he did place her under arrest. I won't go into all the details of Use of Force / Control Tactics, but "Hard Empty Hand" level includes everything from a wrist grab to a punch in the face, i.e. if one is justified then so is the other. Even if it doesn't look great on video.

It's easy to MMQB the guy based on 36 seconds of video played over, and over, and over again. But the burden will be (or should be) the officer's surroundings and reasonable belief at the time of the incident. Any civilian would want the same consideration if they were accused of misconduct or a crime of any sort.
That means that I can punch a woman in the face for throwing water at me? Why don't we see that more in the movies?
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Last edited by Beware Owner; 10-03-2012 at 11:54..
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:03   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottydl View Post
Uh, he did place her under arrest. I won't go into all the details of Use of Force / Control Tactics, but "Hard Empty Hand" level includes everything from a wrist grab to a punch in the face, i.e. if one is justified then so is the other. Even if it doesn't look great on video.

It's easy to MMQB the guy based on 36 seconds of video played over, and over, and over again. But the burden will be (or should be) the officer's surroundings and reasonable belief at the time of the incident. Any civilian would want the same consideration if they were accused of misconduct or a crime of any sort.
I just don't see the justification. Disparity of force. He punched her in the face. Shes bleeding from the mouth. She didn't even DO anything wrong. Where is the accountability?
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:17   #21
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I just don't see the justification. Disparity of force. He punched her in the face. Shes bleeding from the mouth. She didn't even DO anything wrong. Where is the accountability?
The punch may look bad, but as I explained it's all in the same "group" of force that would be justified for someone walking away from an officer attempting to arrest them. Not to mention what might have happened in the parts of the video we didn't see.

If the officer is currently on desk duty, it's being investigated. There's the accountability.

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That means that I can punch a woman in the face for throwing water at me? Why don't we see that more in the movies?
Good question, since movies are obviously the way we should all act in real life.

Even though you didn't probably want an actual legal answer to that question, I'll give you one anyway. It depends on the circumstances, and your state law. Battery is generally any unwanted physical contact of an insulting or provoking nature. So yes, throwing water on someone in that fashion could justify a physically defensive response.

Of course a police officer effecting an arrest is a different circumstance and allows for a wider use of physical contact after-the-fact, but I'm sure you realize that.

Last edited by scottydl; 10-03-2012 at 12:20..
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:25   #22
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Good question, since movies are obviously the way we should all act in real life.
Oh, come on, you know Hollywood is what we all look to emulate! They're the ones with the 13 shot .357 magnum revolvers and guns that auto cock themselves when you raise them!

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Even though you didn't probably want an actual legal answer to that question, I'll give you one anyway. It depends on the circumstances, and your state law. Battery is generally any unwanted physical contact of an insulting or provoking nature. So yes, throwing water on someone in that fashion could justify a physically defensive response.

Of course a police officer effecting an arrest is a different circumstance and allows for a wider use of physical contact after-the-fact, but I'm sure you realize that.
I'm not trying to be funny right now, but, really, why was he arresting her, again? She was asking what she did while she was being led away in handcuffs. Second, isn't a closed fist a disparate force from maybe a few drops of water? Do you think it's justified to punch someone in the face when they're not resisting arrest?
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:27   #23
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That means that I can punch a woman in the face for throwing water at me? Why don't we see that more in the movies?
With no particular relevance to this incident (I wasn't there, nor have I watched the video and don't intend to), I'd just like to point out that an overdeveloped sense of chivalry can easily get one killed in LE.

For example: a woman comes at me with a weapon, I'll shoot her. Say a woman starts throwing punches, I'll punch back HARD, so long as a more effective option isn't available. The fact that the violater is a woman is irrelevant in the vast majority of use of force situations.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:28   #24
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Second, isn't a closed fist a disparate force from maybe a few drops of water? Do you think it's justified to punch someone in the face when they're not resisting arrest?
These are much better questions and, IMO, worth asking. I think the fact that she is female is irrelevant.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:36   #25
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With no particular relevance to this incident (I wasn't there, nor have I watched the video and don't intend to), I'd just like to point out that an overdeveloped sense of chivalry can easily get one killed in LE.

For example: a woman comes at me with a weapon, I'll shoot her. Say a woman starts throwing punches, I'll punch back HARD, so long as a more effective option isn't available. The fact that the violater is a woman is irrelevant in the vast majority of use of force situations.
I hear you, I was just being funny with that one.

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These are much better questions and, IMO, worth asking. I think the fact that she is female is irrelevant.
I still find myself working on the "equality" thing, no, her gender isn't relevant.
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