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Old 10-11-2012, 22:10   #376
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
You're off. We're a two income household. taxes are significantly higher than your calculator.

And you continue to ignore the savings associated with a high deductible plan.
I'm not off on something I never postulated on. I never assumed anything regarding one or two income household ... simply a married filed jointly 400,000 income. Obviously I don't know your exact specifics. All I did was make the comparisons the same, with the exception of the 6000 HSA contribution ... and I conceded it was about a 2000 tax savings for you.

I'm not ignoring it... i stated clearly ... you are an edge case. Deal with it ... Obamacare isn't for or against you individually, regardless of how important you think you are.

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Old 10-11-2012, 22:15   #377
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Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
So, you concede then that Obamacare is more than just the mandate as you claim?
No. As I already stated, at its CORE (key word ... original statement) it is the mandate. It is the central, critical component with which the entire piece of legislation pivots on. The remaining "stuff" is trivial and in support of the central goal of the act ... which is to improve health care for the citizens of our country.
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:18   #378
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Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
No. As I already stated, at its CORE (key word ... original statement) it is the mandate. It is the central, critical component with which the entire piece of legislation pivots on. The remaining "stuff" is trivial and in support of the central goal of the act ... which is to improve health care for the citizens of our country.
I'm a citizen. How does it improve my healthcare, doug?
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:20   #379
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Nice catch.

hey doug - what about this? How are you going to pay for your socialism if you can't collect?
Not nice catch. It is nonsense. They will collect. The "socialism" will be paid for. When they do collect it can pay for or offset all those 80 or so little ancillary things ruble listed. How does that sound?
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:21   #380
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I'm a citizen. How does it improve my healthcare, doug?
See post #376, last statement for an answer to your typical vapid obtuse question. Are you sure you aren't blonde (or wearing a blonde wig)?

How does it improve the health care of the hundreds of thousands of people with pre-existing conditions that previously received sub-optimal, untimely, inefficient, poor, extremely costly healthcare ... for which they didn't pay?

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Old 10-11-2012, 22:23   #381
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See post #376, last statement for an answer to your typical vapid obtuse question. Are you sure you aren't blonde (or wearing a blonde wig)?
So, you're saying it doesn't improve my healthcare, it just makes it more expensive?
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:26   #382
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
You're off. We're a two income household. taxes are significantly higher than your calculator.

And you continue to ignore the savings associated with a high deductible plan.

My taxes are going up for Obamacare and my insurance premiums are going up.

But I'm getting no more healthcare for it.
Your access to and quality of health care won't change, your costs most likely will though. Too bad. Mine will too.

Last edited by douggmc; 10-11-2012 at 22:28..
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:27   #383
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a) Actually YOU brought up ages first (and how long you "paid into" SS) ... not me. No failure in my math/inference ... based on what you have given me. As I already said, enlighten me with your statistics if you are taking issue with what I've written ... as I have.
Sorry but you brought up “age”. I merely states I paid for SS for XX years. Than “YOU” brought up age.

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b) I haven't said or introduced or inferred in anyway the word "welfare" or that it is what you are taking by cashing your SS check. Let's be clear YOU are introducing and associating the world "welfare" with SS. I have not. Nor do I. SS and Medicare are socialized government programs. I will assume you are projecting again by throwing out the world "welfare" (see my earlier post about parallel psychological concept of closeted homosexuals that are gay bashers). Guilty much?
You brought SS into the discussion inferring I was receiving it and equating that to people getting free health care under Obomacare. Don’t try to deny it it’s posted for the world to see. Like any of this has any bearing on my original post.

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SS and Medicare are SOCIALIST programs. I agree that they aren't "welfare". Don't worry about typos ... I'm not a spelling/grammar nazi (usually).
So if you agree they don’t = welfare why (other than trying to use it as an “I’m getting free stuff”) would you bring them into the argument?

I deleted what was here because it’s irrelevant since you admit SS doesn’t = welfare. My Example of Obobaccare was based on my being forced to pay “charity”. Your bring SS into the argument was useless and a total waste of time.

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What are you whining about? You WILL get your SS payment. Nobody stole what is coming to you based on the SOCIALIZED ENTITLEMENT CONTRACT you have. Again ... logic failure based on misunderstanding how SS works/what it is.
I’m not afraid of not getting SS. My displeasure is with social engineering/socialism in our government and your implication that I was getting something SS, that was = to what the give-me’s and illegal’s will receive from Obomacare.

However, thank you again for proving one of my points. The government FORCED us into a Government run “program” that is FUBAR, SS, but you’re still arguing that a Government run health plan is good thing.


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Welfare. Welfare. Welfare. You keep saying it. I didn't. Nor do I think it is ... I call it what is is: entitlements, socialized government entitlements.
Obomacare contains ”WELFARE”. That and it’s being FORCED on us has been my point all along. It also contains many elements other than healthcare.

And all of this time wasted because you wanted an EXAMPLE then an EXPLANATION to something I said to someone other than you that didn’t implicate you and shouldn't have concerned you in the first place.

EXAMPLE and EXPLANATION = Obomacare is socialism/engineered by liberal/progressives being forced on us.
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:29   #384
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Your access to and quality of health care won't change, your costs most likely will though. Too bad. Mine will too.
But just a few posts ago you said it would bring costs down.

My costs are going up.

What gives, doug?
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:30   #385
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Sorry but you brought up “age”. I merely states I paid for SS for XX years. Than “YOU” brought up age.



You brought SS into the discussion inferring I was receiving it and equating that to people getting free health care under Obomacare. Don’t try to deny it it’s posted for the world to see. Like any of this has any bearing on my original post.



So if you agree they don’t = welfare why (other than trying to use it as an “I’m getting free stuff”) would you bring them into the argument?

I deleted what was here because it’s irrelevant since you admit SS doesn’t = welfare. My Example of Obobaccare was based on my being forced to pay “charity”. Your bring SS into the argument was useless and a total waste of time.



I’m not afraid of not getting SS. My displeasure is with social engineering/socialism in our government and your implication that I was getting something SS, that was = to what the give-me’s and illegal’s will receive from Obomacare.

However, thank you again for proving one of my points. The government FORCED us into a Government run “program” that is FUBAR, SS, but you’re still arguing that a Government run health plan is good thing.



Obomacare contains ”WELFARE”. That and it’s being FORCED on us has been my point all along. It also contains many elements other than healthcare.

And all of this time wasted because you wanted an EXAMPLE then an EXPLANATION to something I said to someone other than you that didn’t implicate you and shouldn't have concerned you in the first place.

[/b]EXAMPLE[/b] and EXPLANATION = Obomacare is socialism/engineered by liberal/progressives being forced on us.
Jerry - you're a coonass so I love you like a brother

But

Social Security is welfare
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:34   #386
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But just a few posts ago you said it would bring costs down.

My costs are going up.

What gives, doug?
Obtuse poster is obtuse ... won't differentiate and acknowledge the difference between impact to himself (an individual) vs the macro level ... when it is the key point.
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:37   #387
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Obtuse poster is obtuse ... won't differentiate and acknowledge the difference between impact to himself (an individual) vs the macro level ... when it is the key point.
Eventually the macro gets down to the micro, doug.

I'm one of the people paying here. If it raises costs for the people paying for it, how does it bring costs down?
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:44   #388
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Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
....
I deleted what was here because it’s irrelevant since you admit SS doesn’t = welfare. My Example of Obobaccare was based on my being forced to pay “charity”. Your bring SS into the argument was useless and a total waste of time.
....
Riiiiiigght. You deleted what was there not because it was irrelevant, but because it made you look like a nincompoop.

The whole reason SS/Medicare were brought in by me was because you insisted that Obamacare is some evil socialist demon, yet you are entitled to SS/Medicare because you paid for it and somehow are not "socialist" entitlement programs. When the reality is ... any impartial observer would laughingly scoff at those respective characterizations. It is in fact the exact opposite, Obamacare is at its core using a tax penalty to "incentive-ise" those that can, but choose not to, to buy PRIVATE insurance (not even remotely socialist ... you could call it vast over reach of federal power if you wanted ... and arguably be right ... but not socialist). Whereas SS and Medicare are the virtual two first words in the dictionary under "Socialism"!!!


Reality? You are the Tea Party guy in the town hall meeting in 2009 screaming to his congressman "Keep your government hands off my Medicare". You are this person:
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Old 10-11-2012, 23:03   #389
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Eventually the macro gets down to the micro, doug.

I'm one of the people paying here. If it raises costs for the people paying for it, how does it bring costs down?
The answers have been given to you ad nauseam, cert. We can talk your individual, personal anecdotes all day. The theory underlying Obamacare is quantifiable and solid, if not perfect. I've said that many times before over the last few years in threads (including this one early on) ... it isn't perfect. BUT, it is better than what we had and where we were going in my opinion. I'm in the same shoes as you, albeit not at the same monetary scale, but nonetheless I am. I will surely pay a little more relatively. The upside? I can switch employer's (voluntarily or not) and still get insurance, despite any pre-existing conditions I have (I don't ... but might not always). This alone is worth it ... knowing that I'll have the opportunity to cover myself in the future. The same goes for my sister, who (actual true anecdote) has been hit this past year with a medical double whammy: Grave's Disease and a bad fall breaking the humeral head in her shoulder. She is a nurse and has been one for over 25 years. She has been off work for over 6 months due to two surgeries on her shoulder and one on her thyroid. She can't work ... Nursing is physical and strenous ... not a desk job. Her disabilities ran out, she lost her job, she has been paying for COBRA in the interim. Without Obamacare, she will be virtually uninsurable when she recovers and can go back to work as a nurse ... pre-existing condition. I don't call Grave's disease or a freak slip on a slick curb ... irresponsible and worthy of a lifetime of exorbitant medical bills due to lack of coverage for an individual "fair" ... anymore than you don't think it is fair because your particular edge case will cost a little more.

God forbid one of your children chooses a career in a few years not as lucrative as your wife's ... and without Obamacare (or something like it) finds herself down the road in a similar situation as my sister. I'll gladly pay a little more so your daughter won't be. I used the phrase before in this thread, I would like to think I see the forest for the trees. In doing this ... you call it socialism, I call it reality.

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Old 10-11-2012, 23:14   #390
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The answers have been given to you ad nauseam, cert. We can talk your individual, personal anecdotes all day. The theory underlying Obamacare is quantifiable and solid, if not perfect. I've said that many times before over the last few years in threads (including this one early on) ... it isn't perfect. BUT, it is better than what we had and where we were going in my opinion. I'm in the same shoes as you, albeit not at the same monetary scale, but nonetheless I am. I will surely pay a little more relatively. The upside? I can switch employer's (voluntarily or not) and still get insurance, despite any pre-existing conditions I have (I don't ... but might not always). The same goes for my sister, who (actual true anecdote) has been hit this past year with a medical double whammy: Grave's Disease and a bad fall breaking the humeral head in her shoulder. She is a nurse and has been one for over 25 years. She has been off work for over 6 months due to two surgeries on her shoulder and one on her thyroid. She can't work ... Nursing is physical and strenous ... not a desk job. Her disablities ran out, she lost her job, she has been paying for COBRA in the interim. Without Obamacare, she will be virtually uninsurable when she recovers and can go back to work as a nurse ... pre-existing condition. I don't call Grave's disease or a freak slip on a slick curb ... irresponsible and worthy of a lifetime of exorbitant medical bills due to lack of coverage for an individual "fair" ... anymore than you don't think it is fair because your particular edge case will cost a little more.

God forbid one of your children chooses a career in a few years not as lucrative as your wife's ... and without Obamacare (or something like it) finds herself down the road in a similar situation as my sister. I'll gladly pay a little more so your daughter won't be. I used the phrase before in this thread, I would like to think I see the forest for the trees. In doing this ... you call it socialism, I call it reality.
It is a simple question, doug.

If it doesn't get cheaper for the payers, for whom does it get cheaper?

In reality, it doesn't. Government never, ever makes things cheaper.

Regarding your sister's situation, that is a shame. We have a real problem on our hands. Unfortunately, you folks want to double down on the root cause of the problem when the answer is to go in the opposite direction.

Whether or not you want to admit it, Medicare is the root cause. It created price inflation. Price inflation created a situation where even private insurers began to contribute to the problem at the behest of consumers, as prices skyrocketed. Now we're in a pickle.

I want your sister to be able to buy the care she needs. Unfortunately, Obamacare is moving us toward a place where your sister, or others like her, will likely one day be denied the care she needs. There will be a shortage, like in the UK.

There was a time in this country when the middle class could pay for its day to day healthcare out of pocket. We need to get there again. Further socializing the system will make it worse.

Free the market. Reduce taxes.
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Old 10-12-2012, 00:21   #391
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It is a simple question, doug.

If it doesn't get cheaper for the payers, for whom does it get cheaper?
And the simple answer has been given to you, repeatedly, cert. It DOES (or takes a stab at it ... I can't predict the future, but I understand the theory behind the approach) reduce costs. It might not for you (in lower echelon of "wealthy") or me (in "upper" middle class) individually.

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In reality, it doesn't. Government never, ever makes things cheaper.
Well ... a) it depends on how you quantify it. b) pros and cons are not always monetary.

But even with out that .... here is one example off top of my head that proves you wrong: I can transport myself from Tampa to Atlanta (did a couple weeks ago actually) pretty efficiently and cheaply. Don't see how that would have cost me less without the interstate or my GPS ... both created and managed via government/government programs.


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Regarding your sister's situation, that is a shame. We have a real problem on our hands. Unfortunately, you folks want to double down on the root cause of the problem when the answer is to go in the opposite direction.

Whether or not you want to admit it, Medicare is the root cause. It created price inflation. Price inflation created a situation where even private insurers began to contribute to the problem at the behest of consumers, as prices skyrocketed. Now we're in a pickle.
Thanks re: sister.

Medicare is A cause. I disagree with price inflation solely to blame as you characterize. Even if it were theoretically the case, PRIVATE insurers, working unregulated in a free market could arguably be equally (if not primarily) to blame for "the pickle".

Rather? .... advancement in medicine and technologies and techniques cost money. A LOT. We don't use a blood letting to cure diseases anymore ... we use VERY expensive drugs, VERY costly technologies, a lot of R&D, very expensive human training costs, etc. It is almost quite literally apples and oranges to this bygone utopia of which you speak (and arguably didn't exist ... the past often is looked upon as more grand than it really was). I seem to recall a very advanced crown making machine your wife decided to purchase for her practice. Several hundred thousand dollars? Why so much?

Also, as I mentioned earlier, the significant costs incurred by providers for treating uninsured, and therefore largely go unpaid, drive up costs (please don't circle back to "don't treat them then" ... we have to move on .. dead horse .. meet reality ). It is no one thing ... rather a confluence of things. It is an intractable problem.

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... Unfortunately, Obamacare is moving us toward a place where your sister, or others like her, will likely one day be denied the care she needs. There will be a shortage, like in the UK.
I'm sorry .. but that is hogwash. For every anecdote and/or biased "news" article showcasing a horrible case of denial of care or lack of timely access to it in the UK or Canada or France, etc. ... I can show you one that is the opposite. These folks either laugh at us or gasp in shock when they hear the details of how we operate in the US.

Further, I've already pointed out that there will be no significant net increase in services provided (if any ... one could hypothesize a decreased load on the system if more have access to proper preventative care). People ALREADY get the services, just at the wrong time, wrong place, and don't pay for them (at the ER, after things often turn unnecessarily catastrophic, and therefore unnecessarily costly) ... the perfect cluster fudge. There will be no shortage ... at least not due to any system that increases rates of insurance coverage.

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There was a time in this country when the middle class could pay for its day to day healthcare out of pocket. We need to get there again. Further socializing the system will make it worse.

Free the market. Reduce taxes.
There was a time when you could buy a shiny new car for 1,500.00 too. It didn't have: ABS, stability control, airbags, seatbelts, belt pretensioners, active head rests, safety cage/crumple zone technology, tempered glass, radial tires, front wheel/all-wheel drive, traction control, etc. Advances sometimes cost money ... and these costs/prices increase relative to "income", but also relative to their value. I don't want to drive in a car without stability control or ABS ... don't know about you. For example, average income in 1950: 15,000, average new car price: 1,500.00. average income in 2004: 50,000, average new car price: 20,000. So .. in 1950, you paid 10% of your year's income to buy a new car. In 2004, you paid 40%. Good news ... your chances of dying in your 2004 Taurus are DRASTICALLY lower than your 1950 Ford Custom. Advancements costs money. Things change.
.

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Old 10-12-2012, 02:49   #392
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This Country got screwed up one progressive, City Councilman, County Commisioner, State Representative, Senator, POTUS and SCOTUS member at a time. Every liberal/progressive teacher in the schools, every professor in the colleges that preaches the progressive agenda.

It has to be unravelled the same way. There is NO way any POTUS without support of Congress can unravel the mess. At best it will be an excuse for neither party to cooperate and but the brakes on, in which case, over the cliff we go and both parties will be able to point at the third party POTUS who "wouldn't work with them".

It is childish at best to contemplate grabbing the big brass ring of the White House without laying the groundwork to make it effective.
This is a post I mostly agree with. Making an honorable attempt to grab the brass ring got a lot of attention, didn't it? That's how you set a foundation and ignite brush fires in people's minds. You will never remove liberals from positions by putting up liberals to oppose them, whether on the local level or at the brass ring level or anywhere in between. Conservatives still exist but they're losing their desire to participate because they aren't being represented at any level lately.


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It will take much more than one office to change anything in a maor way. I keep hearing about the Founders from these folks. That is nice, I am a big fan too, but we would have never heard of them, we wouldn't still be talking about them if it weren't for the individual, largely unremembered sacrifices of the people who's names we don't know, in the history of our Country since the ink dried on the Declaration of Independence. The hard work and small victories carried out by unknown people built the Country, one battle at a time. To take the Country back we have to start winning the little battles. We have to change the minds of the people. We cannot do that merely seeking the instant gratification of the White House. That is winning a flashy battle at the cost of the war.
“In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, Brave, Hated, and Scorned. When his cause succeeds however,the timid join him, For then it costs nothing to be a Patriot.”- Mark Twain


Those unknown people keep up the little battles even when greatly outnumbered. Hmm....
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:37   #393
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In reality, it doesn't. Government never, ever makes things cheaper.
.
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I think we just need to loop around again, surely it's gonna work this next time. I think after four or five loops you pass to the everything gets cheaper button.

Education too, college only costs like 20 times more than it did a couple decades ago. Obviously we need more loans and grants.
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:26   #394
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The ruling did no such thing.

.
Yes it did.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:23   #395
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Your access to and quality of health care won't change, your costs most likely will though. Too bad. Mine will too.
You are in for quite a surprise. Doctors are already quitting, some retiring and some are starting concierge services where you pay a yearly retainer for their services. When HHS institutes wage controls on doctors more will take this road and the majority of people will be left with substandard care as seen in the British national healthcare system and as seen in Canada's system. Enjoy your socialized medicine. Maybe you will get lucky and won't die at the hands of socialized medicine while you wait for treatment like happened to a friend's sister.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:43   #396
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You are in for quite a surprise. Doctors are already quitting, some retiring and some are starting concierge services where you pay a yearly retainer for their services. When HHS institutes wage controls on doctors more will take this road and the majority of people will be left with substandard care as seen in the British national healthcare system and as seen in Canada's system. Enjoy your socialized medicine. Maybe you will get lucky and won't die at the hands of socialized medicine while you wait for treatment like happened to a friend's sister.
In this case, you are very obviously right. There will still be doctors, but the result will be that the best no longer choose medicine and, before long, the guy doing your brain surgery will be the guy who would have ended up a high school biology teacher before Obamacare.

I have to think liberals like douggmc live in some imaginary fantasyland where doctors just want to help people and, if we stop paying, they'll do it for free. Unfortunately, when the liberals find out their fantasyland isn't real, we'll all be in trouble.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:52   #397
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Jerry - you're a coonass so I love you like a brother

But

Social Security is welfare
Please explain how my working for money and giving money to someone than some one working and paying me back then them being paid back is welfare. I put money in the bank. The bank uses that money. When I draw my money out is that welfare. The bank used it. The bank gave, "loaned", it to other people. How cam my saying give back what I put in be welfare? I "over pay" my taxes so at the end of the year the government gives me some of "MY" money back. Is that welfare? I always thought that welfare was "giving someone something they didn't earn."

You're not "supposed" to be able to collect SS unless you worked and paid into the system. How can something I worked for and paid for be welfare?

Jo cleans my yard and I give him a sandwich or money to buy food that's not welfare. I tell Jo I'm keeping $$$ to give to John who worked yesterday. I owe him $$. Come back day after tomorrow and I'll have the rest of your money. I'm going to keep some of Tommi's money who is going to paint the house and use it to pay you. I'll give you the rest of your money then. How in the world can it be implied that Jo is receiving "welfare"? I'm ("the government") is giving him back that which he worked for that I ("the government) took/kept. I hand the guy on the corner with sign a dollar.... that's welfare.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:23   #398
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Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
Your access to and quality of health care won't change, your costs most likely will though. Too bad. Mine will too.
The history of socialized medicine disagrees with you.

What is amazing is that you keep saying it will make things less expensive, yet, you and I are alledgedly payers in this system and it gets more expensive for us by your own admission.

I realize the whole micro vs macro thing but I'm still waiting to see exactly for whom it gets less expensive.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:24   #399
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Please explain how my working for money and giving money to someone than some one working and paying me back then them being paid back is welfare. I put money in the bank. The bank uses that money. When I draw my money out is that welfare. The bank used it. The bank gave, "loaned", it to other people. How cam my saying give back what I put in be welfare? I "over pay" my taxes so at the end of the year the government gives me some of "MY" money back. Is that welfare? I always thought that welfare was "giving someone something they didn't earn."

You're not "supposed" to be able to collect SS unless you worked and paid into the system. How can something I worked for and paid for be welfare?

Jo cleans my yard and I give him a sandwich or money to buy food that's not welfare. I tell Jo I'm keeping $$$ to give to John who worked yesterday. I owe him $$. Come back day after tomorrow and I'll have the rest of your money. I'm going to keep some of Tommi's money who is going to paint the house and use it to pay you. I'll give you the rest of your money then. How in the world can it be implied that Jo is receiving "welfare"? I'm ("the government") is giving him back that which he worked for that I ("the government) took/kept. I hand the guy on the corner with sign a dollar.... that's welfare.
1. You have a contract with the bank.
2. Your SS money isn't being used, its gone.
3. In order to pay your benefit, that money must be seized from someone else.

#3 is the key
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:26   #400
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And the simple answer has been given to you, repeatedly, cert. It DOES (or takes a stab at it ... I can't predict the future, but I understand the theory behind the approach) reduce costs. It might not for you (in lower echelon of "wealthy") or me (in "upper" middle class) individually.



Well ... a) it depends on how you quantify it. b) pros and cons are not always monetary.

But even with out that .... here is one example off top of my head that proves you wrong: I can transport myself from Tampa to Atlanta (did a couple weeks ago actually) pretty efficiently and cheaply. Don't see how that would have cost me less without the interstate or my GPS ... both created and managed via government/government programs.




Thanks re: sister.

Medicare is A cause. I disagree with price inflation solely to blame as you characterize. Even if it were theoretically the case, PRIVATE insurers, working unregulated in a free market could arguably be equally (if not primarily) to blame for "the pickle".

Rather? .... advancement in medicine and technologies and techniques cost money. A LOT. We don't use a blood letting to cure diseases anymore ... we use VERY expensive drugs, VERY costly technologies, a lot of R&D, very expensive human training costs, etc. It is almost quite literally apples and oranges to this bygone utopia of which you speak (and arguably didn't exist ... the past often is looked upon as more grand than it really was). I seem to recall a very advanced crown making machine your wife decided to purchase for her practice. Several hundred thousand dollars? Why so much?

Also, as I mentioned earlier, the significant costs incurred by providers for treating uninsured, and therefore largely go unpaid, drive up costs (please don't circle back to "don't treat them then" ... we have to move on .. dead horse .. meet reality ). It is no one thing ... rather a confluence of things. It is an intractable problem.



I'm sorry .. but that is hogwash. For every anecdote and/or biased "news" article showcasing a horrible case of denial of care or lack of timely access to it in the UK or Canada or France, etc. ... I can show you one that is the opposite. These folks either laugh at us or gasp in shock when they hear the details of how we operate in the US.

Further, I've already pointed out that there will be no significant net increase in services provided (if any ... one could hypothesize a decreased load on the system if more have access to proper preventative care). People ALREADY get the services, just at the wrong time, wrong place, and don't pay for them (at the ER, after things often turn unnecessarily catastrophic, and therefore unnecessarily costly) ... the perfect cluster fudge. There will be no shortage ... at least not due to any system that increases rates of insurance coverage.



There was a time when you could buy a shiny new car for 1,500.00 too. It didn't have: ABS, stability control, airbags, seatbelts, belt pretensioners, active head rests, safety cage/crumple zone technology, tempered glass, radial tires, front wheel/all-wheel drive, traction control, etc. Advances sometimes cost money ... and these costs/prices increase relative to "income", but also relative to their value. I don't want to drive in a car without stability control or ABS ... don't know about you. For example, average income in 1950: 15,000, average new car price: 1,500.00. average income in 2004: 50,000, average new car price: 20,000. So .. in 1950, you paid 10% of your year's income to buy a new car. In 2004, you paid 40%. Good news ... your chances of dying in your 2004 Taurus are DRASTICALLY lower than your 1950 Ford Custom. Advancements costs money. Things change.
.
Economic fail.

You need to ask yourself WHY it has gotten more expensive.

LASIK, gets cheaper.
Technology gets cheaper.

No government involvement. Great examples of quality improving rapidly while costs to the consumer decrease.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 10-12-2012 at 12:30..
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