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Old 10-06-2012, 16:40   #226
countrygun
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
I'm confused then. Federal regulation of marijuana requires a liberal progressive reading of the commerce clause. If you support that, how can you not be described as a Progressive?

You are completely disengenuous by automatically linking limitations on the commerce clause to a "liberal progressive" reading. That is a completely false misrepresentation.

The commerce clause has always been a stickler to CONSERVATIVES who favor State's right's.

The commerce clause has been used by progressives to expand the powers of the Federal Government.
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Old 10-06-2012, 16:47   #227
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You are completely disengenuous by automatically linking limitations on the commerce clause to a "liberal progressive" reading. That is a completely false misrepresentation.

The commerce clause has always been a stickler to CONSERVATIVES who favor State's right's.

The commerce clause has been used by progressives to expand the powers of the Federal Government.
This is exactly what I'm saying.

Folks like snowman who support fed reg of marijuana, support a liberal progressive reading of the commerce clause to expand the power of the fedgov.

He thinks he's conservative, and may be on some issues, but I suspect he's more progressive than he is willing to believe.

Too often "conservatives" confuse the republican party platform with conservatism. Way often, it isn't. The individual mandate was a "conservative" idea before it was a liberal one.

I don't understand the rest of your post.

The notion that the commerce clause was intended to be read this way is nonsensical. The framers set out to create a document that went to great lengths to specifically limit the power and scope of the fedgov and then inserted one clause that wiped it all out?

The commerce clause was inserted to FACILITATE trade amongst the states, not to control anything that crosses state lines.

Under a proper reading, the only concern the fedgov has with interstate trade of marijuana is that one state doesn't place tariffs on another's weed.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 10-06-2012 at 16:51..
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Old 10-06-2012, 16:50   #228
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I suppose you like using the federal government in an unconstitutional manner to control things you don't personally approve of.

That's progressive.

No whining when it bites you on the ass, ok?

BTW, how you liking Obamacare?
Mean, mean, mean...you are so mean.

Romney had pledged to end Obamacare. So I'm gonna vote for him. When someone isn't in favor of drug-legalization, that doesn't mean he or she is a "progressive". Is that the new doper word for "JBT" or "Nazi"...?

Let me know when your friends at NORML get the Supreme Court to declare drug enforcement "unconstitutional". We'll talk then.

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Old 10-06-2012, 16:53   #229
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Mean, mean, mean...you are so mean.

Romney had pledge to end Obamacare. So I'm gonna vote for him.

Let me know when your friends at NORML get the Supreme Court to declare drug enforcement "unconstitutional". We'll talk then.
Mean? No. The same commerce clause that permits the fedgov to prohibit your dreaded weed allows it to impose Obamacare on its citizens.
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Old 10-06-2012, 17:18   #230
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Mean? No. The same commerce clause that permits the fedgov to prohibit your dreaded weed allows it to impose Obamacare on its citizens.
Like I said...let me know when your friends at NORML get the SCOTUS to declare drug enforcement illegal. Until then, it's just Progressive whining for drug legalization. The rest of us are working to elect someone who'll put a stop to Obamacare.
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Old 10-06-2012, 17:38   #231
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Like I said...let me know when your friends at NORML get the SCOTUS to declare drug enforcement illegal. Until then, it's just Progressive whining for drug legalization. The rest of us are working to elect someone who'll put a stop to Obamacare.
You're really going to take a presidential candidate at his word? You laugh at the starry-eyed fools who voted for Obama in 2008, based on promises that obviously didn't fit his profile. He turned out to break all those promises and act as his profile suggested he'd act. Romney would do the same thing. You're high on the same "hopium" that Obama's voters were. You're feeling the same fatigue they were feeling after Bush. You're as desperate to believe as they were.
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Old 10-06-2012, 17:39   #232
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Like I said...let me know when your friends at NORML get the SCOTUS to declare drug enforcement illegal. Until then, it's just Progressive whining for drug legalization. The rest of us are working to elect someone who'll put a stop to Obamacare.
Your political compass is more screwed up than I thought.
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Old 10-06-2012, 19:21   #233
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I suppose you like using the federal government in an unconstitutional manner to control things you don't personally approve of.

That's progressive.

No whining when it bites you on the ass, ok?

BTW, how you liking Obamacare?
Something I find very troubling is... both Progressive/Liberal an MANY that call themselves conservative want the "government" to control/outlaw what "they" deem "NECESSARY".

Quote:
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt, 1783
Both will argue why it's "necessary" for the government to control something they want controlled and why it's Constitutional when, if the Constitution is taken at face value, it isn't.
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Old 10-06-2012, 22:49   #234
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Something I find very troubling is... both Progressive/Liberal an MANY that call themselves conservative want the "government" to control/outlaw what "they" deem "NECESSARY".



Both will argue why it's "necessary" for the government to control something they want controlled and why it's Constitutional when, if the Constitution is taken at face value, it isn't.
Precisely.

Lots of "conservative" progressives.
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:06   #235
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You're as desperate to believe as they were.
Sorry..."desperate" is dopers still crying because RP got robbed.
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:26   #236
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Something I find very troubling is... both Progressive/Liberal an MANY that call themselves conservative want the "government" to control/outlaw what "they" deem "NECESSARY".

Both will argue why it's "necessary" for the government to control something they want controlled and why it's Constitutional when, if the Constitution is taken at face value, it isn't.
I have to agree with this one. The Constitution is not meant to be ignored for the sake of convenience nor personal views. It protects all of the people all of the time, or, as we have seen, none of us. I don't like drug use, but the nation's drug laws are clearly and unequivocally unConstitutional. The drug laws were passed with the exact same arguments that had been used 40+ years earlier to pass prohibition. However, prohibition required a constitutional amendment to give government the power to make alcohol illegal. Where is the amendment to give the government the power to make drugs illegal? There isn't one. They invented the authority and we let them get away with it because we agreed with the goal. Once we established that the government could create this new authority, however, that authority was then used in myriad other ways, not all of which we've really agreed with, have we.

We must insist that the Constitution be obeyed, fully and at all times, or that it be properly amended and ratified. Otherwise, what we get is... this.

John
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:46   #237
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Wanna know the best way to end the War on Drugs? Stop using drugs! Cultivate some self-control instead! Has this ever occurred to you guys? Yes, I realize that it's difficult and takes time, but life isn't supposed to be all puppy dogs and marshmallows. Life is supposed to toughen you up. If a progressive dictatorship does hit our country, make sure you're ready to actually be useful.
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:26   #238
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I have thought about a lot of liberty issues this last 4 years. I guess I have to give Pres. Obama credit for that. As I have seen my liberties evaporate, I have considered them more seriously. So... I have come to the conclusion that I would be fine with cutting the DEA along with Big Bird. Then we can let people use some personable responsibility or suffer for the lack of it.

But for right now, I think we have to defeat Obama. I don't think we'll have anything left in 4 years. And if we are looking at a collapse, I'd rather have someone with more character than our sitting president.


Please vote! It's that important!
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:44   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
Something I find very troubling is... both Progressive/Liberal an MANY that call themselves conservative want the "government" to control/outlaw what "they" deem "NECESSARY".



Both will argue why it's "necessary" for the government to control something they want controlled and why it's Constitutional when, if the Constitution is taken at face value, it isn't.
Some of us just don't care. I don't do dope, and I don't care much one way or the other. So I don't have any strong interest in ending the war on drugs. I'm a noncombatant.

I tell you what would get me interested though, is if they would go ahead and legalize everything, but with one small little prerequisite. Responsibility. That has been very notably absent from the call for legalization. The unfortunate thing is that we have a welfare society, and I meet people frequently that are smoking, snorting, shooting up and drinking without supporting their habits, and I (along with 49% of Americans) are footing the bill for their recreational lifestyle.

So, if you want me on board, just give me a little. This is what I'd like to see.
1. Employers (.gov and Private) still have the ability to demand a drug free workforce. Testing, not just with urine, but blood and hair too.
2. Drug related illness is not covered by normal insurance. If you want to be covered for that, you should have to have a separate policy to cover that stuff. Hospitals would have the right to refuse treatment for self inflicted injury with drugs if the patients don't have the ability to pay for drug use related illness.
3. Blood, Urine and Hair testing for ALL forms of public assistance, if positive, it's cut in half for 2 months the first positive, and cut off all together for a year on each subsequent positive test.
4. Go ahead and add tobacco and alcohol to that list.
5. Release all the drug users from jail. But if they commit another crime to support their habit, back to jail for a much longer time than they were going to serve. The hurdle for deciding that a crime is drug related should be very low. If the crime gives the criminal money, and they are buying drugs, even in a separate week, that should be enough of a nexus to count.
5. Whatever other measures are needed to place 100% of the cost onto the users.


I'm not against drug use if someone can really be responsible for it, but I don't want it to cost me or any other taxpayer a dime.

If someone wants to be free, and can afford it on their own, more power to them.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 10-07-2012 at 07:46..
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:15   #240
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Drug use becomes a problem when the doper leaves his house, drives a car, interacts with someone else. Do your dope and stay in your house and I couldn't care less. But when the cops become involved it costs tax payers LOTS of money.

DEA? Cut them from the budget. They are not being as effective as they could be. The agents are great but they are not being allowed to do what is necessary to stop the drugs coming into the U.S.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:48   #241
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I have to agree with this one. The Constitution is not meant to be ignored for the sake of convenience nor personal views. It protects all of the people all of the time, or, as we have seen, none of us. I don't like drug use, but the nation's drug laws are clearly and unequivocally unConstitutional. The drug laws were passed with the exact same arguments that had been used 40+ years earlier to pass prohibition. However, prohibition required a constitutional amendment to give government the power to make alcohol illegal. Where is the amendment to give the government the power to make drugs illegal? There isn't one. They invented the authority and we let them get away with it because we agreed with the goal. Once we established that the government could create this new authority, however, that authority was then used in myriad other ways, not all of which we've really agreed with, have we.

We must insist that the Constitution be obeyed, fully and at all times, or that it be properly amended and ratified. Otherwise, what we get is... this.

John
Bravo!!
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:17   #242
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I don't like drug use, but the nation's drug laws are clearly and unequivocally unConstitutional.
No, they're not. There are COTUS provisions regarding establishing order and public safety. Drugs left unchecked are a menace and present a special danger.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:57   #243
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No, they're not. There are COTUS provisions regarding establishing order and public safety. Drugs left unchecked are a menace and present a special danger.
Well that applies to guns too
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:06   #244
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Wanna know the best way to end the War on Drugs? Stop using drugs! Cultivate some self-control instead! Has this ever occurred to you guys? Yes, I realize that it's difficult and takes time, but life isn't supposed to be all puppy dogs and marshmallows. Life is supposed to toughen you up. If a progressive dictatorship does hit our country, make sure you're ready to actually be useful.
Someone please tell me I'm seeing things and that I didn't really read that. I've say before that something someone posted was the most "stupid" thing I've ever read but that has to take
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:20   #245
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Well that applies to guns too
We've always had some legal restrictions on who is allowed to own and possess firearms. It's been a constant fight to keep them from encroaching on our liberty, and it always will be...Jefferson warned us to jealously guard our freedoms...but there have always been some restrictions.

I find it hilarious that you equate the RKBA to your imagined right to stayed stoned.

Thankfully, the rest of us can take comfort in the knowledge that there are so few Americans who think that way. Otherwise Ron Paul would have fared better in the primaries.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:21   #246
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It's the people knowingly creating a problem who are complaining about how much it's costing to try to fix the problem. It's like people committing insurance fraud and then complaining about how insurance keeps getting more expensive or shoplifters complaining that there are cameras in dressing rooms. It's ridiculous.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:22   #247
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I have to agree with this one. The Constitution is not meant to be ignored for the sake of convenience nor personal views. It protects all of the people all of the time, or, as we have seen, none of us. I don't like drug use, but the nation's drug laws are clearly and unequivocally unConstitutional. The drug laws were passed with the exact same arguments that had been used 40+ years earlier to pass prohibition. However, prohibition required a constitutional amendment to give government the power to make alcohol illegal. Where is the amendment to give the government the power to make drugs illegal? There isn't one. They invented the authority and we let them get away with it because we agreed with the goal. Once we established that the government could create this new authority, however, that authority was then used in myriad other ways, not all of which we've really agreed with, have we.

We must insist that the Constitution be obeyed, fully and at all times, or that it be properly amended and ratified. Otherwise, what we get is... this.

John

Society draws lines between two similar things all the time and creates laws for the good of society. Somethings are "OK" and some aren't.

We draw a line in the violence continuum between "Castle Doctrine" and "Honor Killings"

(watch as some half wad now says "are you comparing recreational drugs to murder?)
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:27   #248
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No, they're not. There are COTUS provisions regarding establishing order and public safety. Drugs left unchecked are a menace and present a special danger.
So why was a COTUS amendment required to prohibit alcohol but not a plant?
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:55   #249
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We draw a line in the violence continuum between "Castle Doctrine" and "Honor Killings"

(watch as some half wad now says "are you comparing recreational drugs to murder? )
That's okay...we've already heard that doing recreational drugs equates to the freedoms protected by the Bill of Rights.

You know...that whole "being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to stay stoned, shall not be infringed", and all that.

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Old 10-07-2012, 12:58   #250
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Actually that post wasn’t only about drugs. It was about many things.

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Some of us just don't care. I don't do dope, and I don't care much one way or the other. So I don't have any strong interest in ending the war on drugs. I'm a noncombatant.


This sounds harsh because it’s just written matter of fact. Read my whole post before taking offense. Many feel the same way. Until they become unwilling “innocent victims” in the illegal combat. Just one example… No nock warrants, wrong door kicked in people shot. But it doesn’t concern you…. unless one day it happens to you or a loved one. That is EXACTLY why the government gets away with what it gets away with. People with attitudes like you’re displaying right there, “Some of us just don't care”. I’ll bet you scream to high heaven about the things that do affect you. And that‘s the difference between you and me. I care about government abuse in all forms and fashion.

Quote:
I tell you what would get me interested though, is if they would go ahead and legalize everything, but with one small little prerequisite. Responsibility. That has been very notably absent from the call for legalization. The unfortunate thing is that we have a welfare society, and I meet people frequently that are smoking, snorting, shooting up and drinking without supporting their habits, and I (along with 49% of Americans) are footing the bill for their recreational lifestyle.
Evidently you have missed the parts of my posts where I’ve stated that peole showing up with drug related ailments should be shown the door. And that leads me to another “government abuse”. Making US pay for welfare. Posted this before but perhaps you’d like to read it http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/ellis1.html If you have the money to pay for treatment you receive treatment… you don’t, you don’t.

Quote:
So, if you want me on board, just give me a little. This is what I'd like to see.
1. Employers (.gov and Private) still have the ability to demand a drug free workforce. Testing, not just with urine, but blood and hair too.
Before hiring? OK! After and on an ongoing basis? NO! That’s an infringement of people’s privacy rights. If a person is hurt or causes damage or injury they will be tested to see if they are UNDER THE INFLUENCE. If the guy/gal had a drink or smoked weed or had a snort of cocaine last week it’s none of your business.
Quote:
. Drug related illness is not covered by normal insurance. If you want to be covered for that, you should have to have a separate policy to cover that stuff. Hospitals would have the right to refuse treatment for self inflicted injury with drugs if the patients don't have the ability to pay for drug use related illness.
See above post about treatment.
Quote:
3. Blood, Urine and Hair testing for ALL forms of public assistance, if positive, it's cut in half for 2 months the first positive, and cut off all together for a year on each subsequent positive test.
BINGO! We agree! Public ASSISTANCE should also be for a limited time. After that let your family support you get a job or starve.
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4. Go ahead and add tobacco and alcohol to that list.
The treatment falls under my previously mentioned conditions (no pay no play) and I’m with you.
Quote:
5. Release all the drug users from jail. But if they commit another crime to support their habit, back to jail for a much longer time than they were going to serve. The hurdle for deciding that a crime is drug related should be very low. If the crime gives the criminal money, and they are buying drugs, even in a separate week, that should be enough of a nexus to count.
I believe in the death penalty. Release them. If they then meet one of your criteria... Hang um!

Quote:
5. Whatever other measures are needed to place 100% of the cost onto the users.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!


Quote:
I'm not against drug use if someone can really be responsible for it, but I don't want it to cost me or any other taxpayer a dime.
If someone wants to be free, and can afford it on their own, more power to them.
We’re now on the same page.
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Last edited by Jerry; 10-07-2012 at 13:05..
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