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Old 06-13-2013, 09:02   #1
FourthPointOfContact
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Arrested for Open Carry

A gentleman from Alabama was eating in a Columbus, Georgia McDonald's when he was accosted by two members of the City of Columbus Police Department who demanded to know if the gentleman possessed a Georgia Weapons License.

The gentleman informed the officers that he did indeed possess a license and further was exempt from being required to carry one by virtue of his employment, as specified in Georgia law.

The officers then approached McDonald's restaurant personnel and asked if they wished for the gentleman to leave and then informed the gentleman that McDonalds wanted him to go. The gentleman began to pack his belongings but was told by the police officers that it was too late for that and arrested him.


John R. Monroe was retained as the gentleman's attorney and has written the complaint to be heard in court.
Georgia Carry and Jason Stubbs v Baldwin & Mills

Last edited by FourthPointOfContact; 06-13-2013 at 09:02..
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:25   #2
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The complaint didn't say that he was charged with a firearms related crime; it said that he was charged with "disorderly conduct" , presumably because he caused a fuss about leaving the premises....

I think this is gonna be an uphill battle with a $5,000 nuisance settlement.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:37   #3
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Originally Posted by ranger1968 View Post
The complaint didn't say that he was charged with a firearms related crime; it said that he was charged with "disorderly conduct" , presumably because he caused a fuss about leaving the premises....

I think this is gonna be an uphill battle with a $5,000 nuisance settlement.
Yeah, can't have an attitude in Micky D's.

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Old 06-13-2013, 09:40   #4
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Yeah, can't have an attitude in Micky D's.

.

No attitudes are fine; can't cause a scene after they tell you to leave.....

Bottom line, the only hook here is the initial approach to determine if he had the required permit, and that's it;

I don't think it's gonna go anywhere.

Last edited by ranger1968; 06-13-2013 at 09:41..
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:01   #5
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This is really a Carry Issues topic. It will get more replies, more input there. I've asked that it be moved.

FPOC, did Jason or anyone make public the original complaint by McDonald's and the police reports?
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:29   #6
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This is really a Carry Issues topic. It will get more replies, more input there. I've asked that it be moved.

FPOC, did Jason or anyone make public the original complaint by McDonald's and the police reports?
The plaintiff's lawsuit is an PDF attachment to the link, Russ; the police report is not linked anywhere; as a result, the only info seems to be that of the suit claims, which are not exactly objective;

Even at that, there doesn't seem to be much to it....
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:43   #7
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Actually, there seem to be two items at issue:
1) The initial detention and demand for a license without any suspicion of illegal activity
and
2) Not allowing the person to leave but instead the statement, "It's too late for that" and an immediate arrest.

This looks like another one of those lawsuits where everyone will be a winner -
the plaintiff prevails and gets paid
the lawyer gets paid
the officers get paid to testify in court and maybe even collect a little overtime
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:51   #8
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Originally Posted by FourthPointOfContact View Post
Actually, there seem to be two items at issue:
1) The initial detention and demand for a license without any suspicion of illegal activity
and
2) Not allowing the person to leave but instead the statement, "It's too late for that" and an immediate arrest.

This looks like another one of those lawsuits where everyone will be a winner -
the plaintiff prevails and gets paid
the lawyer gets paid
the officers get paid to testify in court and maybe even collect a little overtime
I don't know how it works in Georgia, but perhaps there is a requirement to produce a permit upon demand?

In that case, the initial "detention" would have been lawful;

As far as the arrest that followed his being asked to leave, we don't know exactly what happened; it's entirely possible that the plaintiff decided to argue the point rather than to leave immediately, and at that point he was arrested;

I would like to see the arrest report;

But from what I read in the lawsuit ( in which the plaintiff can make whatever claims they want) the arrest was not firearms related, but was rather related to the conduct of the plaintiff, which makes the 2nd Amendment component of the case weak.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:59   #9
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I don't know how it works in Georgia, but perhaps there is a requirement to produce a permit upon demand?
I'll happily answer that for you, "Nope." No requirement to produce a permit upon demand.

In that case, the initial "detention" would have been lawful;
Given the first answer, again "no." No more lawful than an officer seeing someone driving on the road and pulling them over to "just check if they have a license to drive" not having observed a violation of traffic laws beforehand.

As far as the arrest that followed his being asked to leave, we don't know exactly what happened; it's entirely possible that the plaintiff decided to argue the point rather than to leave immediately, and at that point he was arrested;
That would be supposition, there is no evidence he did anything Other than comply with the wishes of the restaurant owners/managers. It's entirely possible and quite lawful to protest an officer's actions and remain entirely within the boundaries of 16-11-39

I would like to see the arrest report;
Open Records Act to the Columbus Police Department, referencing "Jason Stubbs", "Kevin Baldin" "R.S. Mills" and "July 9th 2012" will get you everything you desire. Most likely for next to nothing.

But from what I read in the lawsuit ( in which the plaintiff can make whatever claims they want) the arrest was not firearms related, but was rather related to the conduct of the plaintiff, which makes the 2nd Amendment component of the case weak.
The arrest itself was As a Result of Observing a Firearm. Presumably the fine officers of the Columbus Police Department are fully aware of the Georgia state laws regarding the lawful ownership of firearms. Had they not observed a firearm the incident would not have happened in the first place as there was absolutely no reason for the officers to approach officially and there was no indication that the McDonald's employees had any objection to him at that location.


I wonder if here would be a good spot to mention that the individual was acquitted of all criminal charges?

Quote:
I was acquitted in the end. I also forgot that JRM did say that the judge asked what the case was about, when they went into his chambers, and the solicitor said it was about me not wanting to show the cop my license for my firearm and JRM responded "he didn't need to" and that was when the dead docket was decided by the judge.

Last edited by FourthPointOfContact; 06-13-2013 at 12:06..
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:19   #10
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Originally Posted by ranger1968 View Post
The complaint didn't say that he was charged with a firearms related crime; it said that he was charged with "disorderly conduct" , presumably because he caused a fuss about leaving the premises....

I think this is gonna be an uphill battle with a $5,000 nuisance settlement.
I suspect there will be no nuisance settlements; note the attorney representing the plaintiff.

Last edited by FourthPointOfContact; 06-13-2013 at 12:21..
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:54   #11
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I suspect there will be no nuisance settlements; note the attorney representing the plaintiff.
Yes John is an amazing attorney...i suspect cause he wears police socks too?
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Old 06-13-2013, 13:01   #12
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I can neither confirm nor deny the presence of a digital recording device at the incident.

If by some odd, almost unthinkable happenstance that a digital recording device was present, I how instrumental it will be during depositions?
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Old 06-13-2013, 13:15   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FourthPointOfContact View Post
A gentleman from Alabama was eating in a Columbus, Georgia McDonald's when he was accosted by two members of the City of Columbus Police Department who demanded to know if the gentleman possessed a Georgia Weapons License.

The gentleman informed the officers that he did indeed possess a license and further was exempt from being required to carry one by virtue of his employment, as specified in Georgia law.

The officers then approached McDonald's restaurant personnel and asked if they wished for the gentleman to leave and then informed the gentleman that McDonalds wanted him to go. The gentleman began to pack his belongings but was told by the police officers that it was too late for that and arrested him.


John R. Monroe was retained as the gentleman's attorney and has written the complaint to be heard in court.
Georgia Carry and Jason Stubbs v Baldwin & Mills
The thing I am hung up on is "he informed them that he was exempt from a CCW due to his employment."

What exactly does that mean? What jobs in Georgia or Alabama, aside from LE allow you to carry a firearm without a license to carry?
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Old 06-13-2013, 13:17   #14
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There is no open carry in Georgia. You may open carry if you have a concealed carry permit, but only if you wish to attract a lot of attention to yourself. I have lived in Georgia for almost 8 years and I have seen precisely ONE person carrying openly. And he was looking around the whole time, like he was daring somebody to say something to him. It was odd, I gave dude a wide berth. I could definitely see somebody less interested in gun rights than I freaking out and calling the cops, it's just not something you ever see here.

Tons of people carry in Georgia, but everyone does so concealed. At least in the cities. Columbus is a pretty decent sized town.
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Old 06-13-2013, 13:18   #15
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Originally Posted by Gun Shark View Post
The thing I am hung up on is "he informed them that he was exempt from a CCW due to his employment."

What exactly does that mean? What jobs in Georgia, aside from LE allow you to carry a firearm without a license to carry?
No need to get hung up, the answer is simple. OCGA 16-11-130.


Nitpickery... there is No "CCW" in Georgia. One does not receive a permit to carry concealed, one receives a permit to carry. Openly or Concealed, as suits one's desires and purposes.

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Old 06-13-2013, 13:25   #16
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There is no open carry in Georgia. You may open carry if you have a concealed carry permit, but only if you wish to attract a lot of attention to yourself. I have lived in Georgia for almost 8 years and I have seen precisely ONE person carrying openly. And he was looking around the whole time, like he was daring somebody to say something to him. It was odd, I gave dude a wide berth. I could definitely see somebody less interested in gun rights than I freaking out and calling the cops, it's just not something you ever see here.

Tons of people carry in Georgia, but everyone does so concealed. At least in the cities. Columbus is a pretty decent sized town.
Everyone does so concealed?
Hate to burst your bubble but open carry in Georgia is quite legal, just as legal as concealed carry as it's the very same Georgia Weapons Carry License.
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Old 06-13-2013, 13:57   #17
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Everyone does so concealed?
Hate to burst your bubble but open carry in Georgia is quite legal, just as legal as concealed carry as it's the very same Georgia Weapons Carry License.
If you read the second sentence of my post you will see that I said that. You need a carry permit to carry openly or concealed. My point is that nobody carries openly. You legally CAN if you have a permit, but nobody DOES, at least not around here or anywhere else I've been in Georgia. Not sure what the laughter smilies are about.

When I said that "there is no open carry in Georgia" I suppose I meant that there is no "constitutional carry" or carry without a permit. And also that nobody open carries, at least that I've seen after almost 8 years of living here. I know a ton of people that carry concealed though.

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Old 06-13-2013, 14:08   #18
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"The arrest itself was As a Result of Observing a Firearm. "

But he wasn't arrested for a firearms related charge;

He was arrested for "Disorderly Conduct", which means that he was apparently causing some type of disturbance;

And from what I read, he was not "aquitted" ; rather, the prosecutor in the area dropped the charges, for whatever reason; that's not the same thing;

As far as finding a copy of the police report, I would put that burden on YOU, since you're the guy who posted a copy of one side of the story- the lawsuit- and not BOTH sides......

I think this case is a loser.....I am betting that it's dismissed if it's not settled.

Understand that I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying that from the standpoint of this being a 2A case, it doesn't appear that there is all that much there.

Last edited by ranger1968; 06-13-2013 at 14:37..
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Old 06-13-2013, 14:52   #19
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My apologies if I came off a bit rough.
There were two things I meant to point out, 1) there is no concealed carry permit in Georgia; there is only a carry permit. Calling it a concealed carry permit only perpetuates the idea that only concealed carry is allowed.
2) That you haven't seen anyone openly carrying is anecdotal and not evidence that it does not happen. It's like saying "I've never seen a bad (or honest) cop." No one has met every officer in the state and therefor shouldn't draw inferences from a limited data set.
You've already missed the OC meet&greet at US Cafe in Smyrna,
Carry Issues
And the one in Buckhead
Carry Issues
And the first annual Gary Pirkle Park Pistol Packing Picnic
Carry Issues
But, fear not there's still time to make the North Georgia CGO Picnic

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Old 06-13-2013, 15:01   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger1968 View Post
"The arrest itself was As a Result of Observing a Firearm. "

But he wasn't arrested for a firearms related charge;

He was arrested for "Disorderly Conduct", which means that he was apparently causing some type of disturbance;.
No, it could just as easily mean "you done pissed me off, boy, now you're taking a ride." One will note that it was acquitted at trial.

And from what I read, he was not "aquitted" ; rather, the prosecutor in the area dropped the charges, for whatever reason; that's not the same thing;
Read more closely, the case was not nolle pross'd by the prosecution before trial.

As far as finding a copy of the police report, I would put that burden on YOU, since you're the guy who posted a copy of one side of the story- the lawsuit- and not BOTH sides......
I guess I'll just have to take you up on that, stay tuned to this channel.

I think this case is a loser.....I am betting that it's dismissed if it's not settled.

Understand that I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying that from the standpoint of this being a 2A case, it doesn't appear that there is all that much there.
From the complaint I'd say there is a very good case unless the officers involved can come up with a reason why they approached Mr Stubb's other than he being seen openly carrying a firearm in a state where it is not illegal to do so.
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