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Old 07-21-2012, 05:48   #1
frizz
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Rifle for Home-Invasion Situations

If you have a home invasion, I think a rifle is a better choice than a pistol. I am working on the assumption that you have better sense than to go looking for in intruders.

I am also thinking about how a jury is going to perceive your choice when it is shown to them at a potential trial.

While a very high power rifle (say 30-06, or .308) is tempting, it could be viewed as overkill, which a hotshot DA would look to exploit.

Some other rifles that come to mind are an AR-15 variant, especially the short barrel ones. But a Ruger Mini-14 shoots the same round, and doesn't have that "ugly black rifle look" which could make some jurors view you in a bad light.

But frankly, because I don't have a Mini-14, the rifle that I am leaning toward is The Carbine, AKA the M1 Carbine, which I do have. Even though it fires a rather light 110gr. bullet which is a mere 30 caliber, it does sent it out at a swift 1990 feet/second, and it has 967 ft-lbs of energy.

It has energy comparable to a the hottest pistol rounds, and the soft points should mushroom fairly well.

There you have my opinion: Ruger Mini-14 followed by an M1 Carbine. I base my opinion on both effectiveness, and how the weapon will look to a jury.

What do YOU think is the best? Let the opinions fly... without the Holy Wars getting out of hand.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:25   #2
yamen1999
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I have family members in my house so I am going to search for them. Therfore I opt for a handgun w\light to keep my other hand free for opening doors or deflecting a blow if ambushed by an intruder. As far as juries go, I want to be alive to tell my story, so caliber size is not much of a concern for me. By the way, my personal experience with the legal system, is that your screwed no matter what if the DA decides to prosecute. I no longer trust any lawyer.

If I am defending my positon after all family members are accounted for, than a shotgun is my long gun of choice. Rifles have there place in the scheme of things. It's all about tactics.

just my 2 cents
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:20   #3
frizz
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Originally Posted by yamen1999 View Post
I have family members in my house so I am going to search for them. Therfore I opt for a handgun w\light to keep my other hand free for opening doors or deflecting a blow if ambushed by an intruder. As far as juries go, I want to be alive to tell my story, so caliber size is not much of a concern for me. By the way, my personal experience with the legal system, is that your screwed no matter what if the DA decides to prosecute. I no longer trust any lawyer.

If I am defending my positon after all family members are accounted for, than a shotgun is my long gun of choice. Rifles have there place in the scheme of things. It's all about tactics.

just my 2 cents
Good points, but as for a lawyer, well you're going to need one for dealing with the police and any criminal case if they decide to bring one. Then you will need another one (or the same one if you're lucky) for the more-likely civil suit.

It is wise to have a healthy mistrust for lawyers, but you have to find one who is better than the run-on-the-mill lawyer. I submit that when you find that lawyer, you should establish a relationship in advance.

I take it that your tactic is to round up your family, and set up a defensive area... am I right?

One objection to shotguns for home defense is the issue of getting a good spread pattern over short distances. Unless your target is far away, the shot just isn't going to have time to spread out. What have read is that for short distance fight, a shotty is about as effective as a rifle from the standpoint of hitting a BG, but a hit will be more likely to take the fight out of the BG.

One other good point is the fact that a handgun is what you want for a fight within arm's length since a long gun is easier to grab.

Last edited by frizz; 07-21-2012 at 11:24.. Reason: Fix typos
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:29   #4
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You seem to be hung up on court matters. They should never trump survival issues. Can you even find one example of home invaders who sued their victim for shooting back?
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:21   #5
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You seem to be hung up on court matters. They should never trump survival issues. Can you even find one example of home invaders who sued their victim for shooting back?
Criminal issues should never be overlooked. You can google for cases of invaders (or surviving family) suing the homeowner. You can also check out the GATE Self-Defense Forum on this site.

By "reasonable" I don't mean anything that impairs your ability to defend yourself.

That said, you should do everything reasonably possible to make any criminal case as much of a turkey so that a DA will be less likely to prosecute.

I'm talking about little things such as using factory ammo rather than handloads; a prosecutor or plaintiff's lawyer will try to make you out to be a bloodthirsty gun nut. Same goes for an AR-15. Not only does it look aggressive, an opposing lawyer would try to bring up the fact that it almost exactly like the rifle that the military uses.

As for a potential civil suit, you want as many facts in your favor to increase the odds of the suit being dismissed before trial. The lawyer's fee for getting a case dismissed before trial isn't cheap, but it is a LOT less than what you will have to pay for a full trial, even if you win.

This doesn't take into account the mental stress for you and your family that will always accompany a criminal or civil trial, even if the jury finds in your favor.
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Old 07-21-2012, 12:34   #6
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Frizz, you may want to research the use of a shotgun for self defense. The shotgun is a short range weapon, not a medium or long range one. Loaded with 00 buckshot, the shotgun is very devistating in CQB.

There is nothing wrong with your choice of weapon, but you need to develope tactics around it. There are pros and cons to every platform. As for the aftermath of a shooting, I'll deal with that when it happens. To many veriables to consider. And I have learned threw personal experiance how little the truth matters in court.

Bottom line here is, you need to get training from a proffessional on tactics using your choice of weapon system.
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Old 07-21-2012, 13:21   #7
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If you have a home invasion, I think a rifle is a better choice than a pistol. I am working on the assumption that you have better sense than to go looking for in intruders.
Well the main advantage a rifle has over a pistol is longer range accuracy, while the main disadvantage is the size, which makes it difficult to use indoors. I don't think it's a good choice at all - a shotgun, on the other hand, has more than enough advantages to make up for its size.
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Old 07-21-2012, 13:31   #8
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Criminal issues should never be overlooked. You can google for cases of invaders (or surviving family) suing the homeowner. You can also check out the GATE Self-Defense Forum on this site.
Indeed I can. There aren't any.

I like Mas. I like most, almost all, of what he puts out. But you aren't giving a true rendition of things. We aren't talking some dope deal gone bad or some mistaken identity shooting. In this thread, you specifically chose to address self-defense in a home invasion. If you really think that you're going to be sued, let alone found at fault, because you used an unattractive or overly powerful rifle in repelling boarders, you're operating in an unwarranted state of paranoia. You made the claim, please back it up. Show us a single example of a resident being sued by the home invasion crew because of the use of a rifle, either because it wasn't PC, or because it was too powerful.

Don't give something a power that it doesn't have.
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Old 07-21-2012, 15:06   #9
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I live in Arizona and many of the home invasions that take place out here add an additional concern. The perps are wearing body armor. I like my Aug with 62 gr. penetrators for this reason. That said, I live way out in the country and have clear fields of fire re: backstopping of projectiles.

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Old 07-25-2012, 18:23   #10
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Living in GA, I don't really have to worry much about the legal aspect of what I use to defend myself against a home invader, but I will say that a rifle is more cumbersome trying to fight in a small place, but the firepower is a good bonus. A shotgun is your best bet, especially an auto loader, or just learn to use a pump really well.
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Old 07-25-2012, 21:50   #11
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I think the M1 you have right now is perfectly suited to home defense. Just opt for one of the JSP loads rather than the standard FMJ of course.
Tactics and Training

I'm all for shooting more with something you have that will get the job done just as well as a new gun, over buying a new gun. Besides, it's cheaper. And I'm poor.
There are a number of manufactures that carry JSP ammo for the .30 Carbine.
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:17   #12
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My wife gets the AR while i'm rounding up the kids with a pistol. She holds down our bedroom and calls 911. As for legal ramifications, I live in Texas.

Pistols have advantages of being easier to manuever with, going around corners, opening doors and the such. Rifles have other advantages as well.

Whatever you decide on I recommend praticing it often and also get quality training.

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Old 07-26-2012, 10:31   #13
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A shotgun is far better. Remember, the rifle bullet will go throughwalls and could hit other people not involved in a home invasion. This is veryimportant in apartment living where other apartments share the same wall.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:43   #14
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A shotgun is far better. Remember, the rifle bullet will go throughwalls and could hit other people not involved in a home invasion. This is veryimportant in apartment living where other apartments share the same wall.
Do a little more research and come back. 5.56 will not pentrate walls any further than 00 buck. If I recall 00 penetrates further actually.

IMO the ultimate in home defense in an AR15 in 5.56.
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Old 07-26-2012, 13:50   #15
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Do a little more research and come back. 5.56 will not pentrate walls any further than 00 buck. If I recall 00 penetrates further actually.
You are correct. I had a thread on this like a year ago.

In terms of minimizing overpenetrating a .223/5.56 carbine is about the best you can do unless you're talking the super-light fragmenting type pistol rounds, which I wouldn't ever use. Not that you still don't have to be careful, but it's all relative.

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Old 07-26-2012, 13:54   #16
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Well the main advantage a rifle has over a pistol is longer range accuracy
Uh no, the main advantage of a rifle over a pistol is stopping power.
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Old 07-26-2012, 16:38   #17
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I live in a small town. I have already had conversations with the chief of police and some of the 21 officers. If an intruder ends up dead in my house by a family members hand, too bad for him. They really think your home is your castle here.

My choice is a 10 round semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buck with a .40 pistol backup. The wife has her .40 and pump 12 Ga to protect herself while on the phone to 911.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:56   #18
frizz
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Indeed I can. There aren't any.

I like Mas. I like most, almost all, of what he puts out. But you aren't giving a true rendition of things. We aren't talking some dope deal gone bad or some mistaken identity shooting. In this thread, you specifically chose to address self-defense in a home invasion. If you really think that you're going to be sued, let alone found at fault, because you used an unattractive or overly powerful rifle in repelling boarders, you're operating in an unwarranted state of paranoia. You made the claim, please back it up. Show us a single example of a resident being sued by the home invasion crew because of the use of a rifle, either because it wasn't PC, or because it was too powerful.

Don't give something a power that it doesn't have.
Sam -

I'm sorry for the delay in responding. I forgot about the fread.

Ignoring civil suits (which is a bad idea) you still have criminal issues to consider.

A dead home invader is usually clear-cut and not a big deal, but not always. It depends on the particular facts of the event, the attitude of the persecution and cops, as well as the attitude of the citizenry (jury pool) in your jurisdiction.

Consider Massachusetts. There, you have a duty to retreat in your home, and it is very likely that you will be tried. It is also likely that you will be convicted because of the attitude toward firearms there.

If the evidence is unclear and tends to point to excessive force, you have a risk of being charged, which varies from place to place.

Then there is the issue of a white person shooting a minority, or the other way around. Consider the Zimmerman case. He was charged only because of political pressure.

Given the risk, you should always consider how a jury will see your plan, choice of weapons, and actions, and make any adjustments that, as you correctly say, will not reduce your chance of surviving.

Let me offer one example. If you have a choice between a Ruger Mini-14 with a wooden stock and an AR, I'd go with the Ruger. Why? First, they are equal in performance. Second, an AR is going to tend to put a stain on you in the mind of a lot of jurors. The best you could hope for is a gun person who won't be shocked or bothered by the AR.
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:01   #19
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I live in a small town. I have already had conversations with the chief of police and some of the 21 officers. If an intruder ends up dead in my house by a family members hand, too bad for him. They really think your home is your castle here.
My area is pretty much the same. Unless you do something really stupid like shoot the BG and run up to him and put a round in his brain with a contact shot, you are fine.
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Old 08-14-2012, 19:35   #20
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Civil suit

I'm not an expert on this subjectby any means, but I had a friend who was attacked by two drugged up men in his home in the 70's in Birmingham, Al. Fortunately he was able to reach his weapons in time to defend himself. One man was killed, and the other was paralized from the waist down. No charges were filed against my friend. Nothing was ever heard from the dead guy's family, but the paralized BG sued my friend and nearly cost him more than he could handle. No fault was found, but he paid dearly for years afterward. There is no winner in these situations.
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