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Old 09-30-2012, 07:40   #1
SoonerDad
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A possible way around the 'No Weapons' policy?

Hey y'all...

Still new to the board but I have a question for all of you 'concealed carry' experts...

I'll have my CCW next month (I live in Oklahoma) but I was disappointed to read in my employee handbook that there's a 'no weapons' policy. Terminated on the spot if caught. Seemed like pretty generic wording, kind of a blanket policy. Ok, I'm cool with that...

But the policy also states 'with the exception of law enforcement or security' personnel.

I work at a medium-sized medical clinic (I'm a physician assistant, one of the medical providers) and I do have concerns about all the pain medication we prescribe, with the very real threat of a disgruntled patient showing up and wreaking havoc. See see a large volume of patients and do quite a bit of pain management.

We do not have security guards.

The place is owned by a doctor, and his wife helps to run it. They love me and trust me implicitly. The wife is open to the idea of someone carrying on the premises.

So I was thinking, once I get my CCW license, would there be a problem with placing a copy of it in my employee file, and adding a designation to my job title, (like, 1. Physician assistant. 2. Security guard) That way, I can conceal carry on the job, be ready to help in a dire emergency, and they don't have to change the employee handbook or anything since I'm designated security? Anything wrong with that?

It is a little easier since it's still a "Mom and Pop" place...

I have even toyed with the idea of getting an "Armed Security Guard" license... Would take 2 weeks and cost me about $300, but that might help with the liability issue, if I have additional training and licensure. Plus 'licensed security guards' are on the list to qualify for an LEO Glock discount... Hmmm...

If there's something I'm missing please educate me.

Thanks!

-Eric
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:06   #2
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In most states if they officially designate you as Security then you will have to meet the standards your state imposes on those employed in that capacity.

They are usually not hard to meet. You need to research OKL state statutes on requirements for "security guards."

Personally I think a better option would simply be to have them place in your file a letter stating you are authorized to be armed on the premises and are exempt from the prohibition.
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:15   #3
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I agree with dragoon!

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Old 09-30-2012, 09:24   #4
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If you know the owners and relate to them that well, why not just ask them for an exemption?

Or to change their policy completely?

Last edited by bobtheelf; 09-30-2012 at 09:25..
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:32   #5
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Originally Posted by SoonerDad View Post
Hey y'all...

Still new to the board but I have a question for all of you 'concealed carry' experts...

I'll have my CCW next month (I live in Oklahoma) but I was disappointed to read in my employee handbook that there's a 'no weapons' policy. Terminated on the spot if caught. Seemed like pretty generic wording, kind of a blanket policy. Ok, I'm cool with that...

But the policy also states 'with the exception of law enforcement or security' personnel.

I work at a medium-sized medical clinic (I'm a physician assistant, one of the medical providers) and I do have concerns about all the pain medication we prescribe, with the very real threat of a disgruntled patient showing up and wreaking havoc. See see a large volume of patients and do quite a bit of pain management.

We do not have security guards.

The place is owned by a doctor, and his wife helps to run it. They love me and trust me implicitly. The wife is open to the idea of someone carrying on the premises.

So I was thinking, once I get my CCW license, would there be a problem with placing a copy of it in my employee file, and adding a designation to my job title, (like, 1. Physician assistant. 2. Security guard) That way, I can conceal carry on the job, be ready to help in a dire emergency, and they don't have to change the employee handbook or anything since I'm designated security? Anything wrong with that?

It is a little easier since it's still a "Mom and Pop" place...

I have even toyed with the idea of getting an "Armed Security Guard" license... Would take 2 weeks and cost me about $300, but that might help with the liability issue, if I have additional training and licensure. Plus 'licensed security guards' are on the list to qualify for an LEO Glock discount... Hmmm...

If there's something I'm missing please educate me.

Thanks!

-Eric
I live in OK, too. I assist in CCW classes in Tulsa. Unless I'm very far off, you need to get at least CLEET certified to carry in a Security Guard position. You mentioned the Doc owned the business. Does he own the business, or the building? And will his insurance cover you, in the event that you'd have to actually use the weapon? Lots of variables, here. Are you just new to CCW, or a new shooter? Are you capable of "threat assesment?. Not trying to dissuade you....Just want to make sure you have the neccesary training, and mindset to lawfully carry, and deploy the weapon, should it happen. Stay Safe!
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:38   #6
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:15   #7
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Thanks for the reply Merlin40!

The CLEET certified classes and subsequent state licensure are what I was looking at... The 'Unarmed Security Guard' is a one week course, and the firearms course is another week... Looks like it'd cost me 2 weeks of vacation time and about $300 to get an armed security guard license. I'd seriously consider it if that would be the wisest thing to do...

As far as threat perception, geez... I'm not in law enforcement and wasn't in the military. I'm just a regular guy. I do feel I have pretty good judgement overall, but who knows? With the patients we deal with, and with prescription drug abuse and illegal sales at an all-time high, who knows what the risk is? Thankfully we don't have those drugs on property, but we frequently have to 'cut people off' from their prescriptions and it has me concerned. Would our clinic be safer with me armed, or with my weapon in the car? Don't know until it happens I guess..

You raise a good point about the liability issue... I'll bet our liability insurance company would have a fit about it. That's why I was considering the advanced training, if that's what they would require.

Lots of things to consider with this issue, that's why I am asking for help with the different angles that I haven't thought of. I appreciate all your input!!! Thanks!
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:02   #8
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I don't blame you for wanting to be armed one bit OP. I am a dentist and the drug seekers have seemed to come out of the woodwork these past few years. I've had a few folks become upset when I cut them off narcotics myself, so I know what you mean. I had a patient ask a few weeks ago if we could not give him some "pills" from the office to hold him over til he could get his prescription filled. The fact that folks think we keep narcotics on hand even though we don't is what really concerns me. I agree with Dragoon. Express your concerns with the owner and get his written permission. I'm sure he would be okay with it, especially since his wife works in the office some and is somewhat at risk too.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:11   #9
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The Doc may not want to open that can of worms giving you an exception. Once someone figures out you're carrying, there goes the prohibition in the handbook.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:32   #10
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A possible way around a no weapons policy at your workplace? While your solution may be workable, as the old saying goes, "be careful what you wish for."

Unless you are trained and qualified in armed security, you may and will put yourself and those around you that could depend on you in grave danger, should the need arise. If you want to go this route just to be able to carry at work, please get yourself "trained" first (not just a two week course).

I am all for CCW for personal protection, but don't put yourself and others in a position you're not properly qualified for.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:49   #11
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No offense but I have a bit of confusion reconciling that it is a "Mom and Pop" type place but with an employee handbook. My guess is that any business that has the perception or coaching to have an employee handbook is going to present an uphill battle to arming an employee. I have been wrong before.
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Old 09-30-2012, 12:08   #12
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I do the same work as you OP and have the same concerns. I am not telling you to break the law. But policy does not carry force of law. With that said, concealed is CONCEALED. No one need ever know you carry, ever. If you have to use it, it will be better to get forgiveness than permission. Easier too.

I have told some very bad men, read convicted killers, they can not have narcs, they were not happy. But what saved my butt on many occasions is my genuine caring for their problems and trying to find them help.

Now go and be legal and just say NO TO NARCS.
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Old 09-30-2012, 14:02   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadarP3C View Post
A possible way around a no weapons policy at your workplace? While your solution may be workable, as the old saying goes, "be careful what you wish for."

Unless you are trained and qualified in armed security, you may and will put yourself and those around you that could depend on you in grave danger, should the need arise. If you want to go this route just to be able to carry at work, please get yourself "trained" first (not just a two week course).

I am all for CCW for personal protection, but don't put yourself and others in a position you're not properly qualified for.
Thank you for your input. I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Well, if a 22 year-old high school drop-out can take a two-week course and get licensed in our state to work at the mall with a firearm, why couldn't I? I'm a 42 year-old man with post-graduate training and a lot of life experience, who is willing to use his vacation time and his own money to get trained and licensed by my state.

Perhaps I made a poor choice of words with the title of my post, I should have said "A way to work WITHIN the 'No Weapons' policy", since I am willing to become 'trained' as a security guard, a person who is authorized to have weapons at my employer.

I'm open to a debate on how much 'training' is enough for what I am asking to do. Maybe an idea for a new thread.

Once again, thank you all for your thoughts.
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Old 09-30-2012, 14:27   #14
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Thank you for your input. I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Well, if a 22 year-old high school drop-out can take a two-week course and get licensed in our state to work at the mall with a firearm, why couldn't I? I'm a 42 year-old man with post-graduate training and a lot of life experience, who is willing to use his vacation time and his own money to get trained and licensed by my state.

Perhaps I made a poor choice of words with the title of my post, I should have said "A way to work WITHIN the 'No Weapons' policy", since I am willing to become 'trained' as a security guard, a person who is authorized to have weapons at my employer.

I'm open to a debate on how much 'training' is enough for what I am asking to do. Maybe an idea for a new thread.

Once again, thank you all for your thoughts.
I believe what Radar was getting at was that two weeks of training isn't enough to properly train someone as a security guard, regardless of who they are or what their background. And I have to say I agree. I understand you have a lot of schooling behind you but how does being a PA make you any more qualified as a security guard than the high school drop out you mentioned. I know for a fact that I don't feel comfortable placing my safety in someone else's hands, especially a security guard who got trained for two weeks.

I will say that if the potential security guard had some kind of military or LEO background my opinion would be different because I know the kind of training they go through. The military especially is trained to deal with stressful situations while the general public is not.
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Old 09-30-2012, 15:16   #15
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I believe what Radar was getting at was that two weeks of training isn't enough to properly train someone as a security guard, regardless of who they are or what their background. And I have to say I agree. I understand you have a lot of schooling behind you but how does being a PA make you any more qualified as a security guard than the high school drop out you mentioned. I know for a fact that I don't feel comfortable placing my safety in someone else's hands, especially a security guard who got trained for two weeks.

I will say that if the potential security guard had some kind of military or LEO background my opinion would be different because I know the kind of training they go through. The military especially is trained to deal with stressful situations while the general public is not.
Exactly!

SoonerDad, yes, with your age, intelligence, and life experiences, I'd expect you to be more qualified (maybe not as physically qualified as the 22 year old) from a mere 2 week training course. But with that said, that type of rudimentary course is not nearly enough training for you or anyone else that is offering up their services for armed protection.

Nothing personal. I am sure your employer knows that you are a mature adult. Use that route to request some type of waiver to carry a weapon for your own protection only at your job site.
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Old 09-30-2012, 15:27   #16
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I understand you have a lot of schooling behind you but how does being a PA make you any more qualified as a security guard than the high school drop out you mentioned.
I think it shows a high level of dedication to improving oneself, and the resources to make it happen.

If the OP is ready and willing to do everything he can in order to make this work (which seems to be the case), all that remains is figuring out what exactly needs to be done.

The 2 week course would be a start, what else is there?

edit: damn you work, hit reply long after Radar did.
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Old 09-30-2012, 15:27   #17
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I live in OK, too. I assist in CCW classes in Tulsa. Unless I'm very far off, you need to get at least CLEET certified to carry in a Security Guard position. You mentioned the Doc owned the business. Does he own the business, or the building? And will his insurance cover you, in the event that you'd have to actually use the weapon? Lots of variables, here. Are you just new to CCW, or a new shooter? Are you capable of "threat assesment?. Not trying to dissuade you....Just want to make sure you have the neccesary training, and mindset to lawfully carry, and deploy the weapon, should it happen. Stay Safe!
Merlin raised the insurance issue, which is the first thing that occurred to me. I'm just going to come out and say that your idea makes sense, but there are just too many problems that will crop up.

Most likely, the owner's insurance is not going to cover you.

Next think about your OWN liability insurance. What does it say about having a firearm while treating patients? Does having a gun void it? What if your carrier found out you carried on the job? I bet they'd drop you.

You are also going to need a separate policy or a rider to cover liability if you use your gun. That is not going to be easy, even if it is possible, it would tip your malpractice carrier off to you carrying on the job.

Now consider this: I know of a psychologist who does forensic psych exams. He went to law school part time, graduated, and passed the bar. Getting liability coverage as a dual professional was gawdawful hard, and it took a lot of searching to find it. Substitute "firearm carry" for dual professional, and you can see why it would probably be impossible.


Finally, think about this...

There is a cancer treatment place over in Montgomery where my wife was treated a few years ago. It has a small pharmacy that stocks only the heavy pain stuff including morphine and fentanyl. (For the non-medical folks, fentanyl is often used when morphine can't do the job.)

This is, of course, a magnet for pharmacy robbery, so they have a cop on duty to protect it.

I assume your clinic has morphine, hydromorphone, benzos, other big boys, and maybe even fentanyl.

Looking at this, I'd think that your employers should have armed security guards or moonlighting cops to provide security.
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Old 09-30-2012, 17:40   #18
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No offense but I have a bit of confusion reconciling that it is a "Mom and Pop" type place but with an employee handbook. My guess is that any business that has the perception or coaching to have an employee handbook is going to present an uphill battle to arming an employee. I have been wrong before.
In this day and age, an employee handbook is a necessity. It not only lets an employee know what is expected of them, but it also protects the employer from a wrongful termination lawsuit.

OP, given the fact that you are in OK and there is a weapons policy within the employee handbook of a small medical factility, I'd wager to bet that the doc didn't want to take the time to develop his own handbook and just copied one from a large medical facility such as a hospital. I definitely think you should talk to your employer. He probably isn't aware of what all is in the handbook.
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Old 09-30-2012, 17:45   #19
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No offense but I have a bit of confusion reconciling that it is a "Mom and Pop" type place but with an employee handbook.
FWIW, I have only 2 employees besides my wife, and we have an employee handbook. It is a way to put policy and procedure in front of them so that they can't say that they weren't told. Mine covers hours, vacation and sick policy, security expectations, how to handle money and client credit, and some other things that don't come to mind at the moment. It is original, but sometimes business owners use templates for such things, and it is possible that the owner did not edit it thoroughly and is not aware that it is affecting a good employee adversely. In a small business like that, with a good relationship with the owner, I nothing wrong with asking whether the boss might consider changing or waiving the policy.
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Old 09-30-2012, 17:58   #20
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I've been away from it for some time, Sooner Dad, but in a previous job was involved in Oklahoma security guard training and the associated regulations. One thing I have some recollection about on the armed security guard included holding insurance/bonding for the armed license along with certification from an agency that you are actively employed in a position that requires the firearm. Normally, both of these requirements are met by agency employment. Being an individual, it would be tougher for you to meet these requirements.

Bottom line, I believe you need to ask more questions directly to CLEET to ensure you properly understand the possibilities and the limitations. As others have counseled in their responses, I also think you have other options that don't include the need to hold a security guard license.
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