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Old 10-03-2012, 12:44   #51
xrmattaz
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I don't top off Glock mags, except the G38 and 39.

My old pal Chuck Taylor told me his G17 mag springs lasted much longer on his old 375K round Glock by doing so.
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Old 10-03-2012, 16:24   #52
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Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
This is like asking Jiffy Lube if I should change my oil every 3 months / 3,000 miles.

They want to sell springs - what do you think they will say?
Not really. If you read it they are telling you to not over stress the magazine spring to insure that you will not have to buy a spring from them. If you, as a matter of necessity, need to keep fully loaded magazines, they offer a way to do this (extra power spring) without having to replace springs as often to insure reliability.

They also note that the stress on the spring varies with the magazine design. So for some designs, fully loaded magazines for long durations matters, and in others it doesn't.

Depending upon design, cyclic fatigue is not the only mechanism for changing the k-factor of the spring. If normal stresses are close to the elastic limit, the k-factor changes - and "close", to a certain extent, is a function of time (ie. the "dash pot" in solid modeling)
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Old 10-03-2012, 16:49   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
My point being that a magazine that holds 10 rounds is loaded to the designed amount when it has 10 rounds in it.

Another point: Don't assume a gun is empty because you counted rounds.

Another point: One should probably get out and shoot more if one thinks a Glock, with a magazine inserted, has run out of ammunition despite the fact that the slide closed after the last shot.
I agree with you. It was my lack of focus that caused the issue. After 400+ rounds of .22 I was more on "auto-pilot" (not an excuse, I know) and counted 10. I always shoot until empty and the slide locks back. I then close the slide, point downrange and "click" to return the gun to my bag for transport home.

This time I slipped past step #1. And what about people who've asked about their slide not locking back after the last round is fired? The slide would be in battery but the weapon is empty. I am taking this as a lesson to be learned and, as such, I learned something...!
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Old 10-03-2012, 17:22   #54
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oh please like none of us have not done it too.
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Old 10-03-2012, 21:01   #55
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I've never done it but it that is just pure luck. I don't know why he's being criticized so heavily. He had it pointed downrange. It's not like he shot his TV or killed the family dog.
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Old 10-03-2012, 21:03   #56
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Originally Posted by jbglock View Post
I've never done it but it that is just pure luck. I don't know why he's being criticized so heavily. He had it pointed downrange. It's not like he shot his TV or killed the family dog.
It's probably because he listed it as a reason to download magazines, as if fully loading his pistol was somehow to blame.
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Old 10-03-2012, 21:12   #57
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Originally Posted by jbglock View Post
I've never done it but it that is just pure luck. I don't know why he's being criticized so heavily. He had it pointed downrange. It's not like he shot his TV or killed the family dog.
If it's a Glock that I am carrying there are sixteen rounds,one in the chamber fifteen in the magazine Always and that's why to me the LCI extractor is a waste.
If the gun is in my safe it's empty Always,no matter what type it is,handgun,rifle or shotgun. SJ 40
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Old 10-03-2012, 22:01   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robhic View Post
This is more personal stupidity and non-focus than an equipment issue. Just today, I was at the range testing ammo in my Ruger .22's. I had my G26 with 10+1 concealed.

After finishing the .22, I had one target left so I shot it with my 26. Ten shots and then pointed the pistol downrange (THANK GOD!) before putting it back in the holster so I could leave and head home. Well, I had shot 10 rounds. The G26 carries 10 rounds, but ONE IN THE CHAMBER = ELEVEN!!!

I had the dreaded ND -- more like a SD (Stupid Discharge) -- down range!!! Because I am thinking/counting 10 rounds, the 11th snuck up on me. One more reason to only load the designed amount, downloading one round as the one in the chamber from now on. All Glocks..

I have to say this is craziness. Personally I actually ck my gun to see if it's loaded. I guess it comes from having good habits when I learned how to shoot.

All of my PD guns are loaded to the max; be that 5 or 31.

Back to the OP. I don't have a PhD nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I have had two HK P7M13 mags loaded since 1989ish(except while being emptied at the range) They keep on ticking like a Timex. This discussion has been going on for ever, so I test them every now and then.

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Old 10-03-2012, 22:31   #59
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I have to say this is craziness. Personally I actually ck my gun to see if it's loaded.
As well you should, if you are going to expect it to be unloaded. Check it visually and physically.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:09   #60
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A properly designed and manufactured spring will not change properties if left under load.

A properly designed and manufactured pistol will not eject brass into the user's face.

Hmmmm...
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:28   #61
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Keep an unloaded extended round magazine in your pistol and loose ammo in your pocket to load if/when needed.
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Old 10-18-2012, 17:35   #62
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Anybody notice the Technical Q&A in the November 2012 American Rifleman? The usual question is asked on page 47 (". . . I was wondering whether keeping the magazine spring compressed for long periods will eventually weaken it.")

The answer by Reid Coffield starts off
Quote:
Springs will lose strength over time if left in a compressed state.
He goes on to say that it's impossible to predict how long that will take,
Quote:
[c]onsequently, the prudent course of action is to rotate magazines so no one magazine is left compressed or loaded for more than a few months.
Whenever this question has come up over the years, on this forum and others, the consensus seems to be near-universal that leaving magazines loaded will NOT weaken the springs, whereas constant unloading and reloading WILL. The question seems to have been settled for so many years that it makes me wonder where the Rifleman is getting its technical information, and whether the rest of the supposedly technical information they print should be taken with a grain of salt as well.
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:16   #63
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Originally Posted by wrangler5 View Post
Whenever this question has come up over the years, on this forum and others, the consensus seems to be near-universal that leaving magazines loaded will NOT weaken the springs, whereas constant unloading and reloading WILL. The question seems to have been settled for so many years that it makes me wonder where the Rifleman is getting its technical information, and whether the rest of the supposedly technical information they print should be taken with a grain of salt as well.
Of course the other position would be that comments on forums - by people whose technical, engineering or firearms experience/knowledge is unknown - should be taken with a grain of salt.

Having been an engineer for over 30 years - I've usually found that a "universal answer" is sometimes right and sometimes wrong - it (usually) depends upon the specifics of the design. When I am asked a broad question - my usual response is "...depends".
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:33   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis View Post
< snip > Having been an engineer for over 30 years - I've usually found that a "universal answer" is sometimes right and sometimes wrong - it (usually) depends upon the specifics of the design. When I am asked a broad question - my usual response is "...depends".
Of course you're right. Having been a lawyer for even longer I've learned that you never say "always" or "never." Well, almost never.

That said, I think there are always some implicit assumptions in the question and answer (sometimes one or more are even mentioned) such as the spring having been properly designed in the first place for the particular magazine, and properly manufactured of the appropriate steel, the magazine being stored in environmental conditions (temperature, humidity) that do not adversely affect the steel in the spring, and the magazine not having been overloaded to the point where the elastic limit (is that the right term?) of the spring is exceeded. And there may be others.

Given all of THOSE assumptions, I have the impression that the metallurgical community can say with technical confidence that the storage of a loaded magazine will not cause the spring to weaken over time (at least not over time fromes that humans are concerned about.) Over the years I have seen statements to this effect on several forums which purport to come from metallurgists and/or gun designers. And I do NOT recall seeing comments from folks who claim to be metallurgists saying no, that's all wrong, I can tell you scientifically that springs DO fatigue just from being compressed for a long time.

The other side of the issue should also be mentioned. The metallurgists who (I've seen) say it's OK to leave magazines stored loaded for long terms also say, uniformly, that it's the compression and expansion of the springs that WILL weaken 'em over time - short periods of time if you do it a lot, like the competitive pistol shooters who change their mag springs every year or two. I've never seen any suggestion that this is not true.

Admittedly, we must take internet advice with caution if it's from persons we don't know. But the weight and consistency of this specific advice (leave 'em loaded, no worries) over the years from different folks who purport to know the scientific basis for it leads me to think that it's true, given the implicit assumptions noted above.

The opposite advice (which the Rifleman piece gave) to load and unload regularly in order to keep from weakening the springs, strikes me as "it just makes sense" advice. So I personally put it in the same category as other such advice in the gun world - you know, like "it just makes sense" that outlawing guns in Chicago will reduce violence there, or that letting "ordinary people" to carry hidden guns will bring gunfights in supermarkets, or that a bayonet lug makes a rifle more deadly than one without such a lug.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:05   #65
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I asked my father this question. He's not into guns, but he did get a BS in mechanical engineering from MIT in 1943 with close to a 4.00. His answer was what a lot of people have said here so far: a spring will not weaken from being continually compressed within its design parameters for a long period of time, regardless of how long. It does weaken from being cycled; compressed and decompressed. I defer to his knowledge. Now, if, as some have said, current magazine designers are pushing spring materials beyond their design parameters, then that's a different story. A spring can certainly be weakened by being compressed beyond what the material can recover from if that amount of over compression can be achieved within the device it is placed in.

I personally download my mags by a lot more than 1. I have 15 round mags in my G19, and I only load 10. And then load the chamber. So the mag in the gun has 9, and the spare has 10. And I carry them that way. This is kind of off topic, because my reason for doing this has nothing to do with spring life. It has to do with two things. Given all the statistics and incidents I have ever read, heard about, or seen in 50 years, I have never heard of a legitimate case of civilian self defense requiring anywhere near 10 shots much less more than that, and I am absolutely convinced that I will never need more than 10 myself. Most such encounters require 0 shots fired. I have personally used pistols to defend myself from violent crimes twice in 66 years, with 0 shots fired. This in and of itself is no reason to not load up 15 rounds "just in case". My main reason for sticking to units of 10 is convenience. I shoot 5 or 10 shot groups. Boxes of ammo come with round counts divisible by 10. I cycle my ammo out fairly often, so it's just easier to keep track of it in units of 10. Everyone on this forum is going to disagree with me to the point of calling me a fool, I am sure. Please save your breath. I've heard it. And there's no need for a total thread hijack. I'm just saying what I do. Don't expect anyone to agree or be persuaded to do the same.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:37   #66
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The only case of mag spring compression I've ever personally seen was in my duty Glock 17.
A round hung up inside the magazine on the range one day, the only malfunction I've ever had with that 1988 pistol (which I still have).
When checked, all three of the duty mags I carried had shortened springs in them.
Our department armorer said he routinely replaced mag springs when they shortened to a certain degree, and had done several.

Those were carried for months at a time by most officers without ever relaxing the springs except at quarterly qualifications or the annual armorer inspection.

After my incident, I defied department policy for the rest of the time I carried that Glock by downloading it one round.
When I carry a 17 today, same thing.

Metallurgical theories aside, that's my direct experience on the issue.
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Old 10-19-2012, 13:29   #67
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I really like the way this discussion has gone.

Excellent posts.
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