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Old 09-30-2012, 19:14   #21
anubisgodofgods
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Could it be that gun manufactures know that springs will shorten slightly (Say 5%) so they design them slightly long (again by 5%) so that when they shorten they are at the perfect length for years of service?
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Old 09-30-2012, 19:50   #22
4Rules
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Larry Vickers' Tactical Tip:
Magazines

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/magazines/


About Larry Vickers:


Civilian Background
http://vickerstactical.com/about-lar...an-background/

Military Background
http://vickerstactical.com/about-lar...larry-vickers/

Last edited by 4Rules; 09-30-2012 at 19:51..
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Old 09-30-2012, 19:54   #23
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The constant unloading and loading of magazines is what causes the springs to weaken. Leaving them fully loaded doesn't adversely affect their length, strength, or performance, but why risk it if you feel otherwise?
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Old 09-30-2012, 20:02   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken grant View Post
If this is so, why can you take a new mag spring and have a hard time loading it but you can fully load it and let it set awhile and it gets much easier to load.

Also a new spring will shorten after being fully compressed for a while.
The spring length at rest is not a specification of the spring. Springs are defined by a force curve with respect to an absolute compressed length. Typically, the first ~20% of compression is not linear nor part of its design parameters. The extended length you speak about in your example has no relevance to the mag assembly function - it is compressed well beyond that point at rest when assembled.

When a magazine follower and spring assembly is compressed, there is a lot more going on (mechanically) than simply a spring compressing. However, I am not disputing that when the spring is brand new, and you compress that spring, the length at rest is inconsistent, or its first compression curve is identical to that of compression number 10, 50, or 5,000. I am saying that the spring is designed to behave in a specific manner over its lifetime. The first few compressions are not of consideration, and over a lifetime of compression cycles, it will fatigue...but, leaving it compressed for an infinite amount of time (after the spring is cycled a handful of times) will not produce any measurable difference in behavior. Cycling it 10,000 times while leaving another identical spring compressed will show a decrease in force/change in elastic limit with the one that was cycled. The only way to truly get 'spring set' is to introduce heat or over-compress it (would require disassembling the mag and stretching the spring or a heat-treating oven).

No reasonable person with the slightest hint of an engineering background would specify/choose spring characteristics that would be affected by leaving a mag loaded. ...especially not these days.
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Old 09-30-2012, 21:11   #25
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You clearly have no formal education in metallurgy, material science, or even, mechanical engineering. Spring set is complete nonsense.
Yeah, and the moon is made of cream cheese!

My college record in, both, Christian Religion and statistical science was never lower than 3.8. I have never been ranked anywhere less than the upper 5 percentile of whatever class I was in. My recorded IQ is, 'in the stratosphere'; and here I am on the dumbass Internet taking crap from a dummy like you! Believe anything you like. All I can say is, 'Wow'!

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Last edited by Arc Angel; 09-30-2012 at 21:18..
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Old 09-30-2012, 21:43   #26
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I download all my Glock mags by one because they are a pain to fully load. I carry a 17C on duty with 2 spare mags. Off duty a 23C with one spare mag. So on duty 49 rounds instead of 52. Off duty 25 rounds instead of 27. Just not that big a deal to me. I have 23 mags that are over a decade and a half old and still work fine so whatever I'm doing I'll just keep doing.
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Old 09-30-2012, 21:54   #27
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I've read the pros and cons of leaving fully loaded magazines sit for years. From what I can tell even the experts are divided on this question, with some claiming there should be no problem and others saying it's not a good practice.

I haven't had the opportunity to go to the range in quite a few months and read that downloading the magazine by one round is a good way to "relax" the magazine spring if a loaded pistol is going to sit for sometime without being fired.

What say you, GT members?
Go into the valuable info sub forum, beaten to death in there. No need to download pistol mags. Ar mags are a different story


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Old 10-01-2012, 06:20   #28
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LARRY VICKERS ON TAKING CARE OF YOUR WEAPON MAGAZINES:

1.) Baby them. Treat your magazines as gently as you can within the realm of realistic training. Donít drop them fully loaded during a mag reload drill as that is very abusive and does not reflect reality. Donít drop them on hard surfaces such as concrete and gravel as a matter of habit. If it is necessary to do this due to range restrictions then put down something to cushion the dropped magazine.

2.) On tough to seat mags, download at least 1 round. If a fully loaded mag is difficult to seat with the slide or bolt assembly in battery then download the mag by at least 1 round as a matter of habit. USGI aluminum M16 magazines are a good example of this as they are really only properly designed to take 28 rounds, not 30 as advertised. Glock pistol mags as a general rule should always be downloaded 1 round as a fully loaded mag is difficult to seat with the slide forward.

3.) Leave loaded only when necessary and rotate with fresh magazines monthly. This will increase the longevity of your magazines.

4.) Attempt to keep them clean particularly in sandy and salt water environments. Do not oil the magazine internals as this tends to attract debris.

5.) Use OEM mags as a general rule. Original manufacturer mags tend to be the best choice across the board. An exception would be magazines for 1911 and AR15 magazines. 1911 manufacturers as a general rule supply a cheap, low bid magazine with their pistols as they realize most serious shooters will buy higher quality aftermarket magazines. Wilson Combat 1911 magazines are some of the finest on the market. I specifically like the Wilson Combat ETM magazines, but the 47D mag is good too. For the AR, Magpul magazines are worth a hard look.

6.) They require periodic replacement. I know this will come as a shocker for some of you but believe it or not after awhile you need to trash your mags and buy new ones if they are used a lot. They take a lot of abuse and are expected to work 100% of the time with no exceptions yet be reasonably priced. This is a tall order and it means that after awhile they have simply have met their service life and need to be replaced. I know it is a radical concept for some people but it is the truth.

I have lived by these guidelines for years and have had exceptionally good luck with my magazines. Those who know me also know my weapons tend to work very reliably and a major reason is I treat my magazines with the respect they deserve. I would recommend you do the same.
4Rules, Thank you for making such an excellent contribution to this thread. Too bad the information has been so largely overlooked!

Larry Vickers, while he might not have a PhD in metallurgy or spring science, clearly demonstrates that he knows what heís talking about, and speaks with the wisdom and authority of an older, heavily experienced, gunman. I like what Vickers has to say, so much, that Iím going to keep a copy of his recommendations for my own use.

(Even though Iím already following these caveats, and have done so for many years, at least now Iíll have just that much more justification!)

Thanks!

Last edited by Arc Angel; 10-01-2012 at 06:58..
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:47   #29
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Im a downloader. I refuse to force rounds in mags. Mine last forever. I drop 2 on the 9mm and one on the 40/45. I can not say it worries me. I can reload with ease, shoot well and not have single issu with anything.

I started this with highpowers in the old days. Then the smith 9mm issues.

Not stressing your equipment is old. Peacemakers were the first download. 5 rather than 6 unless your fighting.

We carried 5 nd 6 shot guns for years.If you cant finish it with 13 9mm rounds ball or otherwise hes more of a man than you. Same with 12 45 rounds or 13 40 cal.

You have to be realistic.

If you dont want to be realistic, well carry em full and fantasy up.

Also stats wise, first round failure to feed out of the mag drops way down. If your really in need that alone would do it for me.
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:10   #30
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Im a downloader. I refuse to force rounds in mags. Mine last forever. I drop 2 on the 9mm and one on the 40/45. I can not say it worries me. I can reload with ease, shoot well and not have single issu with anything.

I started this with highpowers in the old days. Then the smith 9mm issues.

Not stressing your equipment is old. Peacemakers were the first download. 5 rather than 6 unless your fighting.

We carried 5 nd 6 shot guns for years.If you cant finish it with 13 9mm rounds ball or otherwise hes more of a man than you. Same with 12 45 rounds or 13 40 cal.

You have to be realistic.

If you dont want to be realistic, well carry em full and fantasy up.

Also stats wise, first round failure to feed out of the mag drops way down. If your really in need that alone would do it for me.
Doc, you really said it! You and I must be close in years.
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:42   #31
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This

Not stressing your equipment is old. Peacemakers were the first download. 5 rather than 6 unless your fighting.

was done because if one loaded all six chambers the firing pin was at rest on one of the primers of the six cartridges,different than fully loading your magazines. SJ 40

Last edited by SJ 40; 10-01-2012 at 19:43.. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:18   #32
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Thanks for all the responses. I can see there is no consensus on this issue. Hoping others with opinions will chime in.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:42   #33
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Quote:
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You clearly have no formal education in metallurgy, material science, or even, mechanical engineering. Spring set is complete nonsense.
These folks probably know more about gun springs than everyone on this forum:
Quote:
From Wolff Gunsprings FAQ's:

5. How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds?

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.

Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not the always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring.

More recently higher capacity magazine have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical.

In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded at all times, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs. Regular shooting of the pistol is the best way to be sure the springs are still functioning reliably.
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Old 10-02-2012, 17:08   #34
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The experts are not divided.

The people who know what they're talkin' about say 'load 'em up and relax'.
This.
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Old 10-02-2012, 17:11   #35
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This is more personal stupidity and non-focus than an equipment issue. Just today, I was at the range testing ammo in my Ruger .22's. I had my G26 with 10+1 concealed.

After finishing the .22, I had one target left so I shot it with my 26. Ten shots and then pointed the pistol downrange (THANK GOD!) before putting it back in the holster so I could leave and head home. Well, I had shot 10 rounds. The G26 carries 10 rounds, but ONE IN THE CHAMBER = ELEVEN!!!

I had the dreaded ND -- more like a SD (Stupid Discharge) -- down range!!! Because I am thinking/counting 10 rounds, the 11th snuck up on me. One more reason to only load the designed amount, downloading one round as the one in the chamber from now on. All Glocks..
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Old 10-02-2012, 17:15   #36
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Originally Posted by robhic View Post
This is more personal stupidity and non-focus than an equipment issue. Just today, I was at the range testing ammo in my Ruger .22's. I had my G26 with 10+1 concealed.

After finishing the .22, I had one target left so I shot it with my 26. Ten shots and then pointed the pistol downrange (THANK GOD!) before putting it back in the holster so I could leave and head home. Well, I had shot 10 rounds. The G26 carries 10 rounds, but ONE IN THE CHAMBER = ELEVEN!!!

I had the dreaded ND -- more like a SD (Stupid Discharge) -- down range!!! Because I am thinking/counting 10 rounds, the 11th snuck up on me. One more reason to only load the designed amount, downloading one round as the one in the chamber from now on. All Glocks..
10 rounds in a 10 round magazine is the designed amount.
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Old 10-02-2012, 17:50   #37
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Because I am thinking/counting 10 rounds, the 11th snuck up on me. One more reason to only load the designed amount, downloading one round as the one in the chamber from now on. All Glocks..
No, i disagree. It's one more reason to completely let go of the concept and mindset of counting rounds untill empty.

Nothing short of a removed magazine AND a locked back slide AND a visually verified empty chamber, constitutes an unloaded weapon.

Nothing.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:57   #38
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Even if you download - you should still unload and reload your mags every 3 months or 3,000 miles whichever comes first.


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Old 10-02-2012, 20:14   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robhic View Post
This is more personal stupidity and non-focus than an equipment issue. Just today, I was at the range testing ammo in my Ruger .22's. I had my G26 with 10+1 concealed.

After finishing the .22, I had one target left so I shot it with my 26. Ten shots and then pointed the pistol downrange (THANK GOD!) before putting it back in the holster so I could leave and head home. Well, I had shot 10 rounds. The G26 carries 10 rounds, but ONE IN THE CHAMBER = ELEVEN!!!

I had the dreaded ND -- more like a SD (Stupid Discharge) -- down range!!! Because I am thinking/counting 10 rounds, the 11th snuck up on me. One more reason to only load the designed amount, downloading one round as the one in the chamber from now on. All Glocks..
Didn't notice slide lock (or lack thereof?)
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:16   #40
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Didn't notice slide lock (or lack thereof?)
Very good point.

Who thinks that their Glock is empty when the slide closes on an inserted magazine??? I mean, really...this is looking like a great example of poor gun handling.
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