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Old 10-01-2012, 15:06   #61
RyanBDawg
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Thank you Sir. A good friend of mine claims that their religion is not relevant. I pointed out to him that their very religion declared war on us. How can we not see that as a threat to our way of life - let alone that of the Israeli's!?! I wonder why any American Jew would ever vote for Obama over Romney. And I mean this with great sincerity, as I have always been a Protestant supporter of Israel. I used to have an Israeli flag next to a US flag on my truck, until someone keyed "Free Palestine" into my paint. Cheers.
Then move to Israel and fight for them.

Apparently you think it perfectly ok to kill in the name of one religion and not another.

Let them kill each other over some rubble in Jerusalem, means nothing to me. It's just a bunch of junk.

The last time I checked Israel thrashed Arab armies in every war they have fought. I don't think that they need silly Christians in the USA prostrating themselves to a foreign power.

Christians in the US "support" Israel because they think that if they get all the jews back to Israel then Jesus will come back.

Absolutely insane.


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Old 10-01-2012, 15:35   #62
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Thank you Sir. A good friend of mine claims that their religion is not relevant. I pointed out to him that their very religion declared war on us.
Their religion did not declare war on us any more than your religion declared war on Iraq during Desert Storm.
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Old 10-01-2012, 15:37   #63
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Certainly not the Muslims who are protecting our country in our armed forces, or in our police or fire departments.

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What makes you think they cān be trusted, and aren't just sleepers in positions making us more vulnerable? Being a good Muslim and a good American are contraindicated.
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Old 10-01-2012, 15:42   #64
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as a side note on GNG someone posted that religions are like farts; you don't mind your own, but you would prefer not to share theirs
I am not so sure about that. I think some people despise their own farts so much it makes them bitter and lash out at other people about their farts.
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Old 10-01-2012, 15:43   #65
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What makes you think they cān be trusted, and aren't just sleepers in positions making us more vulnerable? Being a good Muslim and a good American are contraindicated.
Innocent until proven guilty. We trusted Eisenhower, Nimitz, and thousands of other Germans and Italians during WWII. How is this different?
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Old 10-01-2012, 15:44   #66
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What makes you think they cān be trusted, and aren't just sleepers in positions making us more vulnerable? Being a good Muslim and a good American are contraindicated.
I don't trust most people, regardless of what affiliation they claim.
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Old 10-01-2012, 15:47   #67
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[quote=greentriple;19468368]
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As Christians did to native Americans, or did u forget whites thought them to scalp. Or better yet when Christian crusaders lines the roads to Jerusalem with he severed heads of Muslims.


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You mean what Spaniards did to Native Americans?
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Old 10-01-2012, 21:10   #68
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[quote=Kingarthurhk;19475017]
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You mean what Spaniards did to Native Americans?
The Spanish were Christians. However,it was the British who started paying a bounty on American Indian scalps. This was more than a mutilation of a dead body. It was a violation of their religion. They felt they would wonder the afterlife with no scalp. They couldn't believe Christians could be so inhuman.
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Old 10-01-2012, 21:47   #69
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In the U.S. we hold adolescents responsible for their behavior.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Sellers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Boyd_Malvo
Those examples did quite a bit more than belonging to a mandated organization.
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I have know some Hitlerjugend. They were not repentant. They bragged about shooting at Americans and liked to show off their wounds. It was a source of pride for them. On one occasion one of them said, "If we had just bombed NYC, we would have won the war because the women here have too much power. They would have made you surrender." Notice how he kept saying we.
Do you know the pope? If not, you really can't draw any conclusions about his feelings based on the feelings of others who might have belonged to the same organization 70 years ago.
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To my knowledge, Benedict has never apologized for his behavior or condemned the Nazies. He has not the addressed the rise of Nazism in Germany in the last decade or attempted to do anything about it. If I'm wrong about that I apologize. Some may argue that, as the Pope, he is above politics, but John Paul II wasn't. I realize I'm generalizing, but, I don't think I'm being unfair.
I think it's entirely fair to criticize what he has done during his time in power, not only as pope, but also as an influential bishop and Cardinal and question whether or not his actions have been sufficiently responsive to the issues affecting the world today. On the other hand, criticizing him and implying he was a Nazi based on things that happened when he was young seems both unfair and unnecessary.
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Old 10-01-2012, 21:53   #70
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If we were talking about any old 14 year kid making a bad decision 60 years ago and whether it should impact his professional life today then I would probably agree with you.
That is what we're talking about.
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Some teenager that got swept up in the moment long ago shouldn't today be prevented from having a career, family, happy life, etc.
He didn't get swept up in a moment, he belonged to a mandatory organization and was later drafted by the military.
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However, this isn't any ordinary position, this is the leader of one of the largest religious institutions in the world. You would think that any pope selected should be beyond all possible reproach. A local preist? Ok, maybe. Leader of the catholic church? No. Same with other important offices. For instance, I wouldn't vote for someone with that kind of background for President either.
I don't see how anyone could hold this position with regard to the Pope. If you're a Catholic or other Christian, you see all men as fallen and thus victim to committing sins. If you're an atheist or belong to another religion, you see the Pope as nothing more than the head functionary of a very large temporal organization, no different than another head of state or CEO.

Which moral or ethical failings are Presidents allowed to have in your mind? Is it better to be a deserter than serve if drafted (Ratzinger actually did both) or is it acceptable to be a recovering alcoholic or drug user?

If Ratzinger had been a Nazi or especially an ardent supporter of Nazi ideology, you might possibly have a point, though I'd argue even those things shouldn't be a fatal error in a young teen, but he wasn't. He simply belonged to an organization in which membership was mandatory for all boys his age at that time and place.
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:49   #71
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Their religion did not declare war on us any more than your religion declared war on Iraq during Desert Storm.
You are wrong there. Muslims attack us primarily for religious reasons, as Osama and the rest have made clear many times. Desert Storm was political and economically motivated.
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:27   #72
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You are wrong there. Muslims attack us primarily for religious reasons, as Osama and the rest have made clear many times. Desert Storm was political and economically motivated.

Then why the US? If it's for religious reasons, there's plenty of other countries that's much more socially liberal than the US. Why don't they attack those countries?

It couldn't possibly be due to the fact that we like to play world police and choose their dictators, could it?
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Old 10-02-2012, 08:49   #73
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Which moral or ethical failings are Presidents allowed to have in your mind? Is it better to be a deserter than serve if drafted (Ratzinger actually did both) or is it acceptable to be a recovering alcoholic or drug user?
Ok, I probably wouldn't vote for him as board member for a company whose stock I hold either. And I would likely not want my board to appoint such a person as CEO. I wouldn't want a recovering drug addict or alcoholic in any of those positions either. I realize that sometimes people can change, but most often they don't. If I have reason to doubt someone's integrity I'm not gonna support that person holding a position of great trust. I have no hard and fast rules on the matter, I take that sort of thing one scenario at a time.

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If Ratzinger had been a Nazi or especially an ardent supporter of Nazi ideology, you might possibly have a point, though I'd argue even those things shouldn't be a fatal error in a young teen, but he wasn't. He simply belonged to an organization in which membership was mandatory for all boys his age at that time and place.
The point is that there is doubt here. Of course he claims that he was just complying with compulsory military service and that he was not a true supporter of the Nazi Party, but that is likely what he would say either way. If he had been an ardent supporter at the time then he certainly wouldn't confirm it now.

One aspect to this that you might not be aware of (unless you are prior military) is that under UCMJ and international law an individual military member is expected and required to not comply with an unlawful order. It doesn't matter if you were conscripted (or volunteered) and sent somewhere you did or did not want to go to support an action you did or did not agree with. When given an order to do something that is unlawful, you must not obey. If you do then you are personally responsible. This was the key legal concept that came out of the Nuremberg trials.

Did Ratzinger carry out any unlawful orders? I don't know. But the Nazi regime was so horrid and despicable in its actions, it's hard to imagine a Hitler Youth member not being expected to cross that line at some point. So, I would say that there is enough doubt about his character to say that he shouldn't hold an office of great trust.

I will add that, ultimately, the matter should be left to the people that are actually affected by the outcome. If he were running for President or Chairman of the Board or even local JP then he would not get my vote. However, the position in question is pope of the catholic church and it seems that they are ok with it which is their perogative. Clearly, I am not catholic so I should have no real say in the matter (just an opinion).
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:06   #74
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1)Man is coming to a glorious age where we finally know enough about our origins and that of our universe to know that these mythologies simply aren't true...in 100 years the religious will be a crazy minority...the last of them die out. Then... finally... man can move forward unimpeded.

2)There has never been an Atheist that killed someone else as a result of their Atheism.
Looking at your second assertion first, history demonstrates your falsehood. Communism murdered 100 million innocents in the 20th century. You may artfully spin and dodge, splitting hairs and spouting nonsense that 'it was because of communism, not atheism', but the fact is, a core component of communism is state atheism.

Good religion provides a clearly-stated set of ethics for proper behavior, which is lacking in atheism. Not all atheists are always totally amoral, but history shows some egregiously bloodthirsty atheist regimes; Bolshevik Russia, Red China, etc. State policy unfettered by religious morality is unrestrained and very scary.

As for your first assertion, well, let's just say that Marxism (with its attendant atheism) is the opiate of self-imagined intellectuals, safe in the quiet comfort of modern life, perhaps online in momma's basement. In this October's Black Belt magazine, page 36, it is noted that the old masters of martial arts lived in harder times. They needed religion both to keep their conscience clear and to stay alive. One slash from a katana or one slice from a poisoned kris could mean death. Life-and-death decisions had to be made in the blink of an eye. Strong religious beliefs could alter consciousness to see and react properly/quickly to a blade or bludgeon attack ("becoming one with your enemy"). Strong religious beliefs also lent reason to a warrior's actions (combating what we call Post-traumatic Stress Syndrome). Knowing that what he was doing was right took away the doubt that also causes hesitation. Like our Drill Sergeant said in Basic Training, there are 2 kinds of bayonet fighter; the quick and the dead.

Atheism does not usually rouse as much passion or energy as religion. Look at Bangladesh yesterday, where your "vast majority of peaceful Muslims" just struck again. Thousands of them set fire to at least 10 Buddhist temples and 40 homes, and at least 20 people were injured. Their excuse this time was a Facebook photo of a burned Koran, which they blamed on a local Buddhist boy.

You claim that religion will die out in a century or so, but you lefty dhimmis are supporting this bloodthirsty religion which has a vastly higher birthrate than does atheism. Is atheism making headway in any Muslim country or community in the world? Conversely, is Islam making headway in recently officially atheist places such as Russia and China? Do you have 4 or more kids yourself? Or did you proudly boast that you aren't having any? Demographics would be destiny, except when God intervenes, and when He does, do you think He'll be supporting atheists or Christians? Might He not just say to atheists, "Thy will be done", and leave you to your glorious future in a place that's kinda bright, loud, uncomfortable, and hot?
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:58   #75
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Looking at your second assertion first, history demonstrates your falsehood. Communism murdered 100 million innocents in the 20th century.
Yes, communism. Not Atheism. Your attempt to make them one and the same will not be allowed.

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but the fact is, a core component of communism is state atheism.
Nope

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Good religion provides a clearly-stated set of ethics for proper behavior, which is lacking in atheism.
Because Atheism is lacking of any religion at all. Atheism is not a philosophy. It is simply a lack of religion. IF, religion is the only thing keeping man from being blood thirsty killers... then man is sick and needs to not survive. If the only thing that keeps you from raping children and murdering innocent people is your belief in ghosts and wizardry... you are a danger to normal society.

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Not all atheists are always totally amoral, but history shows some egregiously bloodthirsty atheist regimes; Bolshevik Russia, Red China, etc. State policy unfettered by religious morality is unrestrained and very scary.
Not due to Atheism, sorry but you are incorrect. Please illustrate the principles of Atheism that caused any of this. Atheism has ONE single idealism... there is no God. That's it. Just one. The ideal that the religious should be killed... that's Anti-Religion to the extremist level. Not the same thing. It isn't splitting hairs. It is using the english language properly.

I'll show you what I mean. I, possibly like Stalin am an Anti-Religionist. I want for the day when religion is gone. However... I'm not an extremist. I think religion will be done away with over time with education and reason. As more people become educated the more that will leave this silliness behind. It will happen on its own as a function of man growing up as a species. It is the price we pay for being self-aware. But eventually we'll move past it. Much like kids eventually move beyond the belief in Santa and as adults he becomes a fun fictional character. Now, if I were an extremist with any type of military power... I might just choose to exterminate the religious to speed up the process. But see I understand this is self defeating in the end. It would only make people turn more intensely to religion, as men scared in the corner like rats tend to do. So wholesale slaughter is not the answer... Education is.

Quote:
As for your first assertion, well, let's just say that Marxism (with its attendant atheism) is the opiate of self-imagined intellectuals, safe in the quiet comfort of modern life, perhaps online in momma's basement. In this October's Black Belt magazine, page 36, it is noted that the old masters of martial arts lived in harder times. They needed religion both to keep their conscience clear and to stay alive. One slash from a katana or one slice from a poisoned kris could mean death. Life-and-death decisions had to be made in the blink of an eye. Strong religious beliefs could alter consciousness to see and react properly/quickly to a blade or bludgeon attack ("becoming one with your enemy"). Strong religious beliefs also lent reason to a warrior's actions (combating what we call Post-traumatic Stress Syndrome). Knowing that what he was doing was right took away the doubt that also causes hesitation. Like our Drill Sergeant said in Basic Training, there are 2 kinds of bayonet fighter; the quick and the dead.
That entire statement reeeeeeeeeeks of Mall Ninja.

But yes, we are all aware that religion can help delude one so that they are able to kill other people without remorse. Not only that but justify it to themselves as right and smiled upon by God.

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Atheism does not usually rouse as much passion or energy as religion.
Agreed. Which is why tons of murder can be attributed to religion but none to Atheism.

Quote:
Look at Bangladesh yesterday, where your "vast majority of peaceful Muslims" just struck again. Thousands of them set fire to at least 10 Buddhist temples and 40 homes, and at least 20 people were injured. Their excuse this time was a Facebook photo of a burned Koran, which they blamed on a local Buddhist boy.
My muslims? They have more in common with you than I. I see not point to ANY religion, Including theirs.

Quote:
You claim that religion will die out in a century or so, but you lefty dhimmis are supporting this bloodthirsty religion which has a vastly higher birthrate than does atheism. Is atheism making headway in any Muslim country or community in the world? Conversely, is Islam making headway in recently officially atheist places such as Russia and China?
True progress is slow. Atheism grows a little each day. We know we're the minority. But we are the best and brightest that mankind has to offer. So we'll be pretty good stock to repopulate this world once you religious folks finally murder each other off.

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Do you have 4 or more kids yourself? Or did you proudly boast that you aren't having any?
I personally don't want any. But not to worry. I am unbrainwashing my chick's little girl. Her grandmother has filled her head with all kinds of Christian nonsense but I an her mother are filtering that out. I've sat her down and had long talks with her. Talks that encourage her to think critically. To ask the questions that religion cannot answer. The questions that ultimately show religion to be false and self defeating.


Quote:
Demographics would be destiny, except when God intervenes, and when He does, do you think He'll be supporting atheists or Christians? Might He not just say to atheists, "Thy will be done", and leave you to your glorious future in a place that's kinda bright, loud, uncomfortable, and hot?
No such thing will happen. But if there were a God and he'd just round up all the religious folks, take them with him, and get them outta here so they'd stop ruining the place... We none believers could turn this place into something pretty special for sure.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:48   #76
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Ok, I probably wouldn't vote for him as board member for a company whose stock I hold either. And I would likely not want my board to appoint such a person as CEO. I wouldn't want a recovering drug addict or alcoholic in any of those positions either. I realize that sometimes people can change, but most often they don't. If I have reason to doubt someone's integrity I'm not gonna support that person holding a position of great trust. I have no hard and fast rules on the matter, I take that sort of thing one scenario at a time.



The point is that there is doubt here. Of course he claims that he was just complying with compulsory military service and that he was not a true supporter of the Nazi Party, but that is likely what he would say either way. If he had been an ardent supporter at the time then he certainly wouldn't confirm it now.

One aspect to this that you might not be aware of (unless you are prior military) is that under UCMJ and international law an individual military member is expected and required to not comply with an unlawful order. It doesn't matter if you were conscripted (or volunteered) and sent somewhere you did or did not want to go to support an action you did or did not agree with. When given an order to do something that is unlawful, you must not obey. If you do then you are personally responsible. This was the key legal concept that came out of the Nuremberg trials.

Did Ratzinger carry out any unlawful orders? I don't know. But the Nazi regime was so horrid and despicable in its actions, it's hard to imagine a Hitler Youth member not being expected to cross that line at some point. So, I would say that there is enough doubt about his character to say that he shouldn't hold an office of great trust.

I will add that, ultimately, the matter should be left to the people that are actually affected by the outcome. If he were running for President or Chairman of the Board or even local JP then he would not get my vote. However, the position in question is pope of the catholic church and it seems that they are ok with it which is their perogative. Clearly, I am not catholic so I should have no real say in the matter (just an opinion).
Good to see you are stretching in the morning Gecko45.

You are aware that Nazi Germany couldn't give a rats ass about our UCMJ, let alone adopt it.

Do you really maintain the belief that conscientious objector's in Nazi Germany could simply choose not to serve as they can here in the US?

You do have a say of course but you may want to take a closer look at his life, specifically to see how he tried to avoid service. After all, it is your avatar that says something about smashing ignorance right?
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:58   #77
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My muslims?
Yes, your Muslims.

Marxists, Secularists, and Islam want Christianity totally suppressed as it was in Russia during Soviet days. But notice, despite the mass murders, the gulags, the brainwashing of children (Shame on you. You admit that you're abusing a little girl this way too), despite the arrogant boasting of mall-ninja militant atheists, Christianity endured while the Soviets did not. I remember when John Lennon bragged that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus, an elderly hillbilly grandmother noted that 'beetles come and go, but Jesus lives on'. Time has proven her correct, and it will show that you're wrong too.

Islam has little in common with Christianity. Islam has much in common with atheist, totalitarian Marxism.

That's why they're brothers in arms.
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:06   #78
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Yes, your Muslims.

Marxists, Secularists, and Islam want Christianity totally suppressed as it was in Russia during Soviet days. But notice, despite the mass murders, the gulags, the brainwashing of children (Shame on you. You admit that you're abusing a little girl this way too), despite the arrogant boasting of mall-ninja militant atheists, Christianity endured while the Soviets did not. I remember when John Lennon bragged that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus, an elderly hillbilly grandmother noted that 'beetles come and go, but Jesus lives on'. Time has proven her correct, and it will show that you're wrong too.

Islam has little in common with Christianity. Islam has much in common with atheist, totalitarian Marxism.

That's why they're brothers in arms.
I guess that would explain why the left is so "tolerant" of islam but not Christianity.
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:43   #79
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You are aware that Nazi Germany couldn't give a rats ass about our UCMJ, let alone adopt it.
Not specifically the UCMJ, but they sure as heck cared when the Nuremberg trials sentenced a lot of them to death or life in prison.

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Do you really maintain the belief that conscientious objector's in Nazi Germany could simply choose not to serve as they can here in the US?
International law is clear, "I was just following orders" is not a sufficient defense in a war crimes trial. Ignore that at your own peril (and hope that your side wins).

Quote:
You do have a say of course but you may want to take a closer look at his life, specifically to see how he tried to avoid service. After all, it is your avatar that says something about smashing ignorance right?
I am not suggesting that he be thrown in jail or anything. Clearly there is evidence to suggest he did what he could to avoid committing any sort of war crime and still not get killed himself. I just find it odd that they would choose Ratzinger when they had an entire college of cardinals to choose from. Certainly there must have been a candidate with a better overall record. Oh wait, I forgot this is the catholic church we are talking about here...

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Old 10-02-2012, 11:47   #80
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To be a good American you must be willing to separate church and state as dictated by our constitution.

So all of you fail at being good Americans.
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