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Old 09-28-2012, 13:57   #1
leo0101
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Traditional Full Stock vs. M4 stock

Hi!

For those who have tried both, do you prefer shooting shotguns with traditional type full stocks or those aftermarket stocks which are AR-15 type/allow you to attach M4 stocks?

Are M4 type stocks comfortable to shoot and do they allow easy manipulation of the shotgun?

If anyone has tried the Benelli M4 with the skeleton stock, is that comfortable to shoot also?

My purpose would just be for HD and range if it matters.
Thanks!
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Old 09-28-2012, 15:37   #2
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Originally Posted by leo0101 View Post
Hi!

For those who have tried both, do you prefer shooting shotguns with traditional type full stocks or those aftermarket stocks which are AR-15 type/allow you to attach M4 stocks?

Are M4 type stocks comfortable to shoot and do they allow easy manipulation of the shotgun?

If anyone has tried the Benelli M4 with the skeleton stock, is that comfortable to shoot also?

My purpose would just be for HD and range if it matters.
Thanks!
Do you shoot shotguns with a bladed stance or more squared up?

One thing you need to consider with the M4 stocks is cheek weld/eye position relative to the bead/front sight. If you're running a red dot the higher cheek weld may be beneficial, if not it may not be so much (the make different model adaptors with different positions, but it's something to consider).

I shoot relatively squared up and really like the Magpul SGA stock FWIW...
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Old 09-28-2012, 17:36   #3
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I just put a collapsible stock on my Mossberg 500 last week. I like the adjustable LOP and the pistol grip. It makes me think, that itís a nice update for a shotgun. As far as shooting it, I will find that out tomorrow when I take it to the range.
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Old 09-28-2012, 17:49   #4
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And for me, as a non-LEO, I think adjustable stocks serve no useful function other than making one appear badass.

I have 12" and 13" LOP stocks on my 1200 and 870, respectively. If I happen to wear uber thick winter clothes, those stocks, after compression of whatever material I'm wearing, will add no more than 1/2 to 1" to the LOP, at most. I'm fine.

I don't need an adjustable stock that I can ratchet up and down the octave, like I'm Zamfir on the pan flute. It's really neat to look at but another gizmo to adjust or break.

I like plain, simple and easy to use. None of this "I've got my PJ's on. That's a #5 setting". Or "This is thick wool with a layer of wicking poly. I'm going with a #2 setting. If I wear down I think that'll be a #3."

Simple, simple, simple.
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Old 09-28-2012, 18:05   #5
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Traditional stock for me. What I have fits me well, I see no reason to change it.

Edit: I have tried pistol grip/collapsible stocks. I find the traditional stock is easier to work with for different reloading styles, and I have an easier time of raising the shotgun and shooting with a traditional stock. I kept the collapsible stock fully extended and never changed it.
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Old 09-28-2012, 19:03   #6
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The M-4 type stock has several benifits. The best being the pistol grip leands to more effective point shooting which is what you are going to be doing inside your home. Also the best benifit being weapon retension. I received a Written Reprimand after a serious of injuries to Team Members, me being Team Leader. These were due to weapon retension drills with the Colt LE. Some stiches then some expensive dental work and of course being team leader and responsible for training a repremand for me. Our Shotguns however were Standard P models with hard wood stocks and taking them away was easy. Never an injury in those drills. A conventional stock weapon can be taken from you in a nano second, not so with a pistol grip stock. This can be a serious factor when involved in a close quarters confrontation.

Also the adjustable M-4 stock makes the weapon shorter when inside, like in your home and cheek weld is a non issue for this type of shooting so that does not apply for HD when we are talking about feet not yards. Add the fact that the best recoil reducing stocks are M-4 type stocks and there is little to debate here. It comes down to the preference of the user.

Also, range means nothing as to how you set up your weapon. You set it up for the primary purpose and the range time is simply training to become proficient with that weapon.
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Old 09-28-2012, 19:04   #7
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And for me, as a non-LEO, I think adjustable stocks serve no useful function other than making one appear badass.
Even the 12" LOP was too long for me. I have short arms & a large chest. Trying to shoot a shotgun with a regular stock for me was extremely uncomfortable & not usable. The shorter then 12" lop & the pistol grip helps me shoot the shotgun much better.
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Old 09-28-2012, 19:08   #8
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I put a blackhawk 6 position recoil reducing stock on my one of my 870s. It shoots great I have a slug barrel on it and my eye lines up perfectly with the rifle sights. It cuts the recoil down considerably combined with the adjustable length of pull means my wife can also shoot the gun very well. As a plus in my opinion it looks very sexy. IMHO if you are going to shoot it a lot you can't go wrong with one of these stocks. Although not everyone will agree with this it's your gun so it's really up to you how you dress it out.
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Old 09-28-2012, 19:28   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
They M-4 type stock has several benifits. The best being the pistol grip leands to more effective point shooting which is what you are going to be doing inside your home. Also the best benifit being weapon retension. I received a Written Reprimand after a serious of injuries to Team Members, me being Team Leader. These were due to weapon retension drills with the Colt LE. Some stiches then some expensive dental work and of course being team leader and responsible for training a repremand for me. Our Shotguns however were Standard P models with hard wood stocks and taking them away was easy. Never an injury in those drills. A conventional stock weapon can be taken from you in a nano second, not so with a pistol grip stock. This can be a serious factor when involved in a close quarters confrontation.

Also the adjustable M-4 stock makes the weapon shorter when inside, like in your home and cheek weld is a non issue for this type of shooting so that does not apply for HD when we are talking about feet not yards. Add the fact that the best recoil reducing stocks are M-4 type stocks and there is little to debate here. It comes down to the preference of the user.

Also, range means nothing as to how you set up your weapon. You set it up for the primary purpose and the range time is simply training to become proficient with that weapon.
I like this answer because it comes from a LEO perspective, of which I'm not.

I think of my fixed stock 870 as a tool, much like a crowbar. I grab and use it as is. It's not dainty, petite or small waisted but it's a tool that gets dropped in the bottom of the tool box and it requires no fiddling to use, even after it sits there for a long time. Just pick it up and use without futzing with it.

Again, I'm a civilian and I don't do 3 gun or other timed events and such, I do not see the benefit to me in having this device on my gun.
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Old 09-28-2012, 20:58   #10
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I think aippi brings up some good points to consider in favor of the pistol grip stock for HD.

I personally purchased my M2 intending to use it for 3gun. I would use it in a HD situation, but it is mainly a gaming gun for me. So that configuration is what I practice with, and what I am comfortable with. But it could be said that it is not ideal for a HD shotgun.
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Old 09-28-2012, 21:27   #11
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I will add that Speedfeed IV-S 13" LOP with an R3 pad may be the best stock made for a fighting shotgun. That was on my fighting shotguns, however at 60 with blown out shoulders I thank Mitch at Mesa Tactical for the LEO with Enidine Buffer often. I still have the IV-S on a few of them but replacing them out as I can with the Mesa. Even have a SpecOps Gen II on one. Have to since I build with that stock also.

Buff don't need no shotgun. Come messing around his house and your skull will be crushed with a Bombay bottle.
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Old 09-29-2012, 01:21   #12
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I like this answer because it comes from a LEO perspective, of which I'm not.

I think of my fixed stock 870 as a tool, much like a crowbar. I grab and use it as is. It's not dainty, petite or small waisted but it's a tool that gets dropped in the bottom of the tool box and it requires no fiddling to use, even after it sits there for a long time. Just pick it up and use without futzing with it.

Again, I'm a civilian and I don't do 3 gun or other timed events and such, I do not see the benefit to me in having this device on my gun.
Cops/Police are civilians too. I appreciate the intended respect but it's not necessary, we are equals. Public Servants, protect and serve.
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Old 09-29-2012, 04:44   #13
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Cops/Police are civilians too. I appreciate the intended respect but it's not necessary, we are equals. Public Servants, protect and serve.
There's no need for that rhetoric here. JD is probably the most knowledgable shotgun guys here, offering advice to all of us, and you start this crap. Grow up.
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:36   #14
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I prefer a traditional stock. I've tried all the different collapsible/adjustable stocks on other guns, but prefer the factory stock on my M1 S90.
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:56   #15
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Cops/Police are civilians too. I appreciate the intended respect but it's not necessary, we are equals. Public Servants, protect and serve.
What I meant was having to wear body armor, a mic stuck to your shirt, winter gear and possibly a rain jacket too.
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Old 09-29-2012, 07:34   #16
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There is a difference in the weapon a home owner would want and an LEO would want for duty.

As Buff said the body armor is an issue and that is why most LEO stocks are 13" to account for that. Add a raid vest, a jacket or even heavy coat and weaopns have to get even shorter so adjustable type M-4 stocks fit the bill. Then add that these weapons are issued to people of verious hieghts, anywhere from a petite 5' to 6'4" and the M-4 adjusting stock is a must. It is not the LOP as much as the distance to the forend. A weapon light on a HD would be better served to be 60 or less lumens. A duty weapon could envolve out door searches for suspects and 100+ is prefered. Choke is not relevent for inside distances as we are talking feet but outside for the LEO a tighter choke is prefered as they are responsible for every pellet and tight group gives better assurance in that area. The Matte finish is fine for HD as the weapon lives inside and is seldomed handled and there is time for a wipe down after it is. An LEO weapon can be in and out of a car several times a shift in all kinds of weather with no time between calls for a wipe down and a basic wipe down may not happen after a 14+ hour shift. So a Parkerized finish is best for an LEO or even "god forbid" a painted finish.

So yes, there are differences and no one was putting one group of gun owners over another. If I was going to then anyone who reads my stuff knows I would put the average recreation or sport shooter over an LEO if not a recreation or sport shooter any day. LEO's who do not participate in recreational or sport shooting most often only shoot on Qual day which for most is once every 6 month and for some once a year. Many are horrible when it comes to maintaining their weapons and mostly when weapons are Department issue. Any LEO can tell you horror stories about condition of weapons they have been issued or found in vehicle racks.

And no, this is not a blanket statement about all LEO's and most anyone of them will tell you the above is true about way to many of their peers considering the seriousness of their duty.
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:43   #17
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What I meant was having to wear body armor, a mic stuck to your shirt, winter gear and possibly a rain jacket too.
A short length of pull is important, 12-13" if you can find one. I don't like the M4 stocks either, it makes it very difficult to access the safety and slide release on most shotguns. Without taking your hand off the pistol grip on an M4 stock it is impossible to manipulate it without canting and pointing the gun in ways that would violate NRA safety rules that LEO's should follow in a public setting. Simply the M4 stock sucks on a duty shotgun (mossberg or remington) and I agree with you that it serves no function other than to be "tacticool" lol.

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There's no need for that rhetoric here. JD is probably the most knowledgable shotgun guys here, offering advice to all of us, and you start this crap. Grow up.
I didn't mean to "start this crap" The issue was with body armor and compatibility with other gear, ok. I didn't understand that right away.
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:13   #18
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I didn't read Bens post as starting crap. He just stated a point many make about firearms ownership. There seems to be a misconception that because LEO's use these weapons in their line of work they have more knowledge and expertise in this area. That is far from the truth as can be. Many are like me. I have knowledge of the weapons I was issued over my career and of course that includes the Remington Shotguns and Rifles I am certified to work on. That is about the extent of my gun knowledge and as for range time............ I got more then the 5th Marines back when the people of the State of Florida were paying for my ammo. Now, I struggle to get trigger time and think about the cost as well.

I would bet any of you that the average Sporting Clay shooter would out shoot some the best your local LE Department could put on the range. I can't even hit them damn things. And yes, there are still plenty of shooters and gun fighters on the Force out there and when some of these LEO's call for back up they better hope a few of them arrive first.
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Old 09-29-2012, 13:10   #19
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Aippi makes a good point in addressing the level of shooting and training that LEO receive. I'd venture to say that many serious students of self defense have far more training than most walking a beat and yet, for some reason that defies logic, retired LEO are entitled to retain their CCW ability as though years on the force equates to skill.

I have spent thousands on classes and I think that i have developed a certain level of proficiency and skill, as well as the mindset to employ those those weapons. In spite of me having no criminal background, demonstrable skill, family who is LEO, the right mind to use deadly force and continued training, my local sheriff has determined that i and people like me, do not meet her criteria for good cause.

And even with these obstacles I still train, assess my strengths and weaknesses, associate with similarly minded people and look beyond the obstacles in front of me.

Most all cops I know and i do know a lot as a civilian, have nowhere near the training i do. The look at qualification as a necessary chore, like writing reports whereas i welcome the chance to further train.
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Old 09-29-2012, 13:54   #20
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I prefer my Blackhawk recoil reducing stock(M4 style) over the full stock that came with my Mossberg 500.

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Old 09-29-2012, 15:06   #21
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I prefer my Blackhawk recoil reducing stock(M4 style) over the full stock that came with my Mossberg 500.

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I noticed you have a bead front sight and an optic on it. Did you ever have any problem getting your cheek low enough to shoot with the bead accurately with that stock?

I have a Blackhawk Collapsible stock with the pistol grip on my Mossberg 500, which I just put on last week. Itís not the recoil reducing stock though.

Today I shot it for the first time. I liked it and I felt it was very close to holding my AR. This is why I wanted it. The only problem I have is the stock will not allow me to get low enough with the bead front sight and it shoots too high. But it does keep nice groups. I think if it had Ghost Ring sights or a red dot, I think I would be able to get right into it.
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Old 09-29-2012, 16:43   #22
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I don't/have not used the front bead on this shotgun with the Blackhawk stock on it. It works perfectly for me with the Trijicon Reflex red dot, the stock gives just about the perfect cheek weld to get a correct sight picture with the red dot. I highly recommend this setup/optic, worth the money.

Here is the specific Trijicon reflex model/mount I have. RX01 with standard Weaver mount



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Old 09-29-2012, 21:41   #23
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I don't/have not used the front bead on this shotgun with the Blackhawk stock on it. It works perfectly for me with the Trijicon Reflex red dot, the stock gives just about the perfect cheek weld to get a correct sight picture with the red dot. I highly recommend this setup/optic, worth the money.

Here is the specific Trijicon reflex model/mount I have. RX01 with standard Weaver mount

Amazon.com: Reflex Rx01 with Weaver Mount: Sports & Outdoors
Unfortunately, I bought my Mossberg new in the early 90ís before the manufacture started drilling and tapping the receivers for optic mounts.

I have been looking for an excuse to sell my Mossberg 500 and buy the 590 A1 Tactical Tri-Rail model. It comes with a collapsible stock and the Ghost Ring sights with the accessory rails on the handguard for a light. I want the model with the 18.5Ē barrel.

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shot...justable/53693
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:10   #24
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Thanks for the replies! Many good points to think about.
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Old 09-30-2012, 22:43   #25
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I have a 590. I'm 5'11", 190 pounds while my girlfriend is 4'10" and barely breaks 100 with wet clothes and a full meal. So yes, for us, the M4 stock is more for function than merely a mall ninja device. Add to that a recoil buffer, and it really starts to make sense. If you are the only one who will be using it, then keep it how you want it-- that was my plan with the Speed Feed stock until my girl started taking an interest in shooting and HD. She regularly shoots my AR, so keeping something familiar between the two platforms is a plus. Now, if you added that door breacher barrel and some sort of zombie tactical paint to it, I would roll my eyes...
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