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Old 09-29-2012, 08:00   #76
hpracing007
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Just to let out a little more hate for the car dealerships, the other way they screw someone out of money, involving the customer, but salesman money is they ask the customer to come resign because of a "mistake".

The date of the deal gets pushed to next month. That was the car salesguy's 20th car. The car he needed to get his 20 car bonus, to get his 20 car % rate. The car he needed to hit the nearly impossible spiff the manager put out.

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Old 09-29-2012, 12:05   #77
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What do you call a nurse with an arrest record? An ex-nurse. Every 2 years we renew our license, and have to answer questions about arrest, etc. Say yes to arrest and you got a lot of hurt coming your way. Lie and get caught, never see a nursing license again. Employers always check criminal records because we have access to ALL the medication. Doctors dont get access to medications.
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Old 09-29-2012, 13:36   #78
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... because we have access to ALL the medication. Doctors dont get access to medications.
I dont disagree with your post, but what you said here is not always true on a number of levels.
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Old 09-29-2012, 13:48   #79
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you did change the contract after he had signed it..and it was a scumball move...
You refuse to see the facts of the situation, and instead you'd rather throw a tantrum about how car dealers are scumballs. Thanks for proving my point.

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not everyone that quits thier jobs is now broke and cant pay thier bills maybe he had a plan or was taking some time to do someting else with his life.
I don't know or care why he quit his job.

More to the point, neither did the bank.

The bank lent him money because they thought he had an income. When they learned that it was not in fact true, they decided they didn't want to lend him any money.

"No job, no loan" is a pretty universal rule of lending.

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maybe you should have not given him the car untill the bank says it was ok and all the loose ends were tied up...but like MOST car salesman they only care about getting you to sign the papers and to get your butt off the lot.
Bull****. If I genuinely thought there was a chance he wouldn't get funded, I would not have let him take the car. No way in hell I'm taking the chance that he doesn't bring it back, or gets into an accident or whatever, unless I'm sure he can buy it.

People drive away on a signature, contingent on financing, literally millions of times per day. 99.99999999% of those deals work out fine.
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Old 09-29-2012, 14:05   #80
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Sounds like alot of mistakes were made in this case. Sloppy work at the dealership, sloppy police work and a greedy customer.
Guess who wins in this case?

The lawyers.
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Old 09-29-2012, 15:04   #81
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If I were the buyer I would offer to set down with the owner of the dealership. He could have one opportunity to convince me that his dealership would never do anything that stupid again and one chance to offer me compensation. If he failed he could live with the consequences, if he did right by me I would offer to appear on the local TV news, shake his hand and call no hard feelings.

For an instance of false arrest I would expect a letter of apology that clearly stated that the dealership was 100% at fault. I would expect not to make any payments on that vehicle.
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Old 09-29-2012, 19:42   #82
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Sounds like alot of mistakes were made in this case. Sloppy work at the dealership, sloppy police work and a greedy customer.
Guess who wins in this case?

The lawyers.
How were the Police sloppy? I'm thinking they were double checking and covering their butts the whole way.
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Old 09-29-2012, 20:17   #83
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............... Yes I'll spend a stupid companies money freely. They deserve to get hosed for their greedy and malicious act.
I agree. It is beyond my understanding how anyone could possibly think that this type of behavior from a dealership is only worth "how much it actually cost the customer". That is sorta contrary to the entire reason lawsuits are allowed punitive damages. I know that at least two of our local dealerships would pay the 2.2 and chuckle about the slap on the wrist.

You gotta make them feel the pain to change the behavior.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:17   #84
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How were the Police sloppy? I'm thinking they were double checking and covering their butts the whole way.
This is gng, the police are always wrong to some extent.


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Old 09-30-2012, 06:45   #85
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This is gng, the police are always wrong to some extent.


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I don't blame the Po Po. They didn't initiate the situation. Something tells me we don't know the whole story from the short article that was posted by the op.
Most of my blame goes to the customer and the dealership. This could have been handled in a civil manner if parties weren't out to screw one another.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:47   #86
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I live in VA Beach and from what I've seen around here the police were probably only too happy to go and get this guy. They seem a little "intense" around here. Wouldn't the guy have a receipt in his hand if he paid cash for the car to show them?

I've only bought 5 new cars in my life but every time it went something like, look at the car, decide to buy the car, get money for the car (lately I've been going with the pre-approved check from the bank), hand them the money, get the car and leave.

I've never had any car dealer tell me to take the car, sign here and then go and figure out the money. I may be naive here but wouldn't paying for the car be a good idea all around before driving it off the lot? No other purchase I make works like that so why does it happen in car deals?

I guess they want to get you into the car so you're emotionally attached then they can screw you latter but it seems to bring in a lot of other issues down the road.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:57   #87
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Rebecca Colaw, Sawyer's attorney, said she appreciates that Ellmer is taking responsibility for what happened. But she said he will have to do more than say he's sorry and let Sawyer keep the SUV.
"An apology is not enough," she said.

What a loser.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:06   #88
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
Easy to give away other peoples' money, eh?

Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.

SW,

Google "vicarious/employer liability".

If it's that easy to have someone arrested over my screwup then it should be like wise that easy for me to face punishment to the same severity as the person who suffered. You are (essentially ) a mathematician. In your professional experience, what is the potential long term damage to the plaintiff, especially as NurseTim points out, he wants to become a NP, or CRNA (certified registered nurse anesthesiologist)?

What is the damage to you if you are "unlawfully" arrested, printed, and placed in jail for a couple of hours? It is never really "expunged".
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:26   #89
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Easy to give away other peoples' money, eh?

Whose pocket is the 2.2 million going to come out of? It's not going to be the pocket of the employee who made the mistake, I'll tell you that much.
When you do something bad you deserved to be punished. What this dealer did was despicable. Employers are responsible for what their employees do (respondeat superior), and this wasn't just some screwup by a minion; a manager did this.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:31   #90
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Sounds to me like the buyer knew the seller made a mistake, and did everything he could do to capitalize on it. Why else would he have immediately gone and gotten a cashier's check to pay off the entire balance when he signed the new contract.

The dealership screwed up twice, once on the initial mistake, and the second time by getting law enforcement involved in what is really a civil issue. But for buyer to prevail, he has to come to court with "clean hands", and I don't think he has them.
Unclean hands? For a willful tort?
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:34   #91
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They certainly should be financially responsible. The question is, did they do $2.2M in damages?
That is to be determined at trial.You also have to look at the punitive damages.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:38   #92
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I used to run a car dealership. If I filed a claim for something like this with my insurance company they would have laughed at me.
That says a lot. If you were in this business, then you should know about the unethical sleaze that permeates this industry.

Considering what a sleazy, high-volume dealership like this has made on screwing people, they are getting off easy even at 2.2Mil.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:46   #93
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Google "vicarious/employer liability".
Like I said, I ran a car dealership. One of my guys once got drunk and drove one of our cars through someone's house. I know about liability.

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If it's that easy to have someone arrested over my screwup then it should be like wise that easy for me to face punishment to the same severity as the person who suffered.
Imagine that this person didn't work for a dealership for a moment, but was a private citizen who had sold a car privately. He files a false police report and gets the buyer arrested. Who would you sue for a few million bucks in that case? No one.

As soon as a business with deep pockets gets involved, all of a sudden people are clamoring for blood. This lawsuit mentality is why it's so expensive to do business in this country.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:54   #94
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As soon as a business with deep pockets gets involved, all of a sudden people are clamoring for blood. This lawsuit mentality is why it's so expensive to do business in this country.
I agree.

Unfortunately, you can't lock the owner of the dealership up and give him a false criminal record....which would be fair.

Since an eye for an eye is not civilized, you are left with working out a fiscal solution.

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Old 09-30-2012, 07:57   #95
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Unfortunately, you can't lock the owner of the dealership up and give him a false criminal record....which would be fair.
What makes you think that would be fair? Heck, what makes you think the owner had any idea about it in the first place? I only saw my dealership's owner twice a year when he came to visit his money. I never ran deals by him. He wasn't involved in the day-to-day operations at all.

Figure out who filed the false police report and throw his ass in jail.
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:14   #96
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Long story short, several years ago, we had traded in an, at the time, newer GMC pickup for a new, upgraded version of the same truck. We agreed on a price, in writing, and we bought the truck, signed the contract, and left the dealership. Something kept knawing at me though. The next morning, I went over the contract and they had errored and overcharged me by about $1,500 (they upped the sale price and upped the trade-in value to make the deal look better on paper, but did not up the trade-in value enough to match the deal I agreed to). That afternoon, I asked to speak to the sales manager and, contract and in-writing agreement in hand, explained the situation. He took the paperwork (copies BTW, not original) to the back to talk with the finance guy. Came back a few moments later and told me to hang on while they fixed it so I could sign a new corrected contract. No questions asked.

In the finance guys office, he showed me their copy of the agreement, showed me where they screwed up on the contract, handed me a new contract, which we went over to be sure it was correct, and I re-signed. They also apologized and gave me 3 free oil changes for my trouble. Now keep in mind we had bought several vehicles from this dealer over the years, and they always gave me a fair deal.

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Old 09-30-2012, 08:21   #97
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I'm not going to pretend that there aren't sleazy car dealers out there, or that there aren't scams out there. Most of the reason why I left the business was that I was tired of lying to people.

That said, this is not at all a "common" scam. Once someone's signed papers and rolled off the lot, they're an owner. Any attempt to re-sign papers can just as easily end up with the person giving the car back. That's a far more likely outcome (I know, I've had to do it many times) than getting a person to sign a new contract for more money.

And $5600 on a $40k car is approaching 15% of the LTV. 99% of the time, even if a dealership wanted to try to scam someone in this way, they couldn't get the scam bought.

Car dealerships simply don't engage in illegal activity very often. There's very little upside. The car business is pretty lucrative as it is--every time a car rolls off the lot, the dealership makes ~$2500 worth of profit (on average) one way or another. An extra $5600 on a single car deal is definitely worth negotiating for, but is definitely NOT worth losing a deal for. In the big picture it simply doesn't matter. It doesn't move the needle at all.
I was about to apologize to you for my insinuation, but if you were "getting tired of lying" then you have a problem, and you don't deserve an apology.

Note that he changed one color SUV for the same one in a different color. The "trim" may have been different. Or maybe they were the same except for color, and the dealership was going to stick him with full price, but got sloppy.
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:37   #98
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Car dealerships simply don't engage in illegal activity very often.
Maybe. But unethical activity is the norm. You have admitted to this behavior yourself.
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:49   #99
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
...

Imagine that this person didn't work for a dealership for a moment, but was a private citizen who had sold a car privately. He files a false police report and gets the buyer arrested. Who would you sue for a few million bucks in that case? No one.

As soon as a business with deep pockets gets involved, all of a sudden people are clamoring for blood. This lawsuit mentality is why it's so expensive to do business in this country.

Hey, if in your scenario it happened where I was born, there is a very distinct possibility I would have gone back to his house and burnt it to the ground AND probably beat the **** out of him, AND take his money by force, AND he'd have to STFU on fear of imminent death. Seeing that I love dogs, and I'm not truly malicious, I would probably not shoot his dog on the spot.

Or I could have paid someone about $85 US dollars to do all of that, and any other private citizen there knows how thin the veneer is between civilization and savagery.

But, since this is the great US of A, I play by the rules. If it were a private citizen, crap like that would not have transpired in the 1st place, and no police agency or officer would have intervened in what would have been IDed as a strict civil matter.

To answer your question, if the same scenario got to a point of my arrest, and the complainant was a private citizen, I want everything he has, as allowed by the law.

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Old 09-30-2012, 08:50   #100
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I was about to apologize to you for my insinuation, but if you were "getting tired of lying" then you have a problem, and you don't deserve an apology.
There are degrees of lying. I never cheated people, but when people asked me "should I buy this car" what was I going to say? Americans buy too many cars? Cars last for 10-15 years? No. I said some salesman ****.

I am massively disinterested in your apology. I was in the car business for years, I've been out of it for years, and I'm very grateful for the experience and the things that I learned.
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