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Old 10-06-2012, 16:01   #41
deadite
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Originally Posted by BruceO View Post
Really?

I think people who design & build guns commercially will have your notion of design life testing interesting. Most consider 20k an absolute minimum and even gunzines do 10k round torture tests. There is an absolutely huge difference between what the average shooter fires and what a platforms design life is and if the design life were based on the use of an average shooter, there would be reliability & durability problems out the gazatsky.

While I think that you're correct idealistically, the reality is different. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should shoot a ton, but I'd love to hear the average number of rounds that the everyday Joe shoots in a lifetime. Not arguing with you. I think you're 100% correct about design life expectancy.

This sort of reminds me of when Dirty Harry came out. Everybody and their brother went out and bought a Smith and Wesson Model 29 and probably 40% of them shot half a box of 44 Mag and sold the gun. (I love throwing out unprovable percentages. )That's why there are so many pristine examples of the "Dirty Harry gun" on the used market. Case in point:

The 10 Ring

I have scads of friends that have trade addiction. They shoot a couple boxes through their guns and sell or trade them for the newer and better fad gun. That's why I believe that there are relatively few shooters that rack up that round tally, so a 40K lifespan means nothing to them.

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Old 10-06-2012, 16:19   #42
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Btw, here are my 10mm handguns.

Carniak customized Colt Delta Elite

The 10 Ring

The 10 Ring

Dan Wesson Classic Commander Bobtail

The 10 Ring

The 10 Ring
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Old 10-06-2012, 16:21   #43
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The Delta AND the Bobtail are SUHHHHWEETT!!
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Why do I carry a 10mm?
“Because a 9mm only kills your body… the 10mm kills your soul.”
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Old 10-06-2012, 16:23   #44
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The Delta AND the Bobtail are SUHHHHWEETT!!

Thanks, buddy!

Don't you have a Perfect 10 or some such 10mm? If so, that one is SuuWeet, too!

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Old 10-06-2012, 16:29   #45
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You're probably referring to my Fusion longslide, yes. :-)

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Old 10-06-2012, 16:48   #46
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You're probably referring to my Fusion longslide, yes. :-)

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That's the one. I love that one!

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Old 10-07-2012, 05:29   #47
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Let's be honest, 99.3 % of people that have 10mm handguns don't shoot 40K rounds through them, so this is a moot point.

deadite
In addition to what Bruce said I'm sure the FBI, Kentucky State Police and other LE Agencies that adopted the 10MM wanted a decent service life out of their pistols. True some went to a reduced load that was more in keeping with what Col. Cooper wanted in the first place, but it was still more than a 40. I know at first Kentucky State Police issued the Winchester Silvertips for their 1076s' and it's not a wimp round and they kept that pistol for close to a decade before going to the Glock 34 for belt carry.
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:28   #48
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In addition to what Bruce said I'm sure the FBI, Kentucky State Police and other LE Agencies that adopted the 10MM wanted a decent service life out of their pistols. True some went to a reduced load that was more in keeping with what Col. Cooper wanted in the first place, but it was still more than a 40. I know at first Kentucky State Police issued the Winchester Silvertips for their 1076s' and it's not a wimp round and they kept that pistol for close to a decade before going to the Glock 34 for belt carry.
My Brother in Law is a big wig in the KY State Troopers and and personal body guard for the Governor and I know for a fact that he never put that many rounds through his Smith and Wesson that he was issued before they went with Glocks.

My point was that even though the guns should be capable of that kind of life, likely, they'll never need to be.

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Old 10-07-2012, 07:26   #49
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I purchased a Witness Limited 10 last year. It had feeding problems & was replaced with my Davidson's Warranty. The 2nd was replaced for the same issues. I figured the "third time was the charm"...guess again. Davidson's sent me my 4th new gun and it has been great! The feeding issues were consistent with the nose pointing up. I varied the OAL's but it dis not help. It is a sweet pistol with a great adjustable trigger. The Limited's are from their custom shop. I expected better for this reason alone.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:47   #50
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Here's my 1006.

They are extremely solid pistols.



The 10 Ring

The 10 Ring
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:51   #51
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Cool points to the original

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True, but I wouldn't trust my life to an original Bren Ten.

They are really cool though. I still have one unfired in the box.


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Old 10-07-2012, 12:45   #52
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.......
My point was that even though the guns should be capable of that kind of life, likely, they'll never need to be.
Good statement. It isn't a matter of "need". They must be designed to never fail, when used as designed, with common market supplies at the maximum performance level at the time of release.

What is an acceptable level of failure with firearms? Zero. Failures happen, but they are not designed to fail. Of course, they wear (or wear out) over time, but like every mechanical device, regular inspection, evaluation and maintenance is required to maintain original-level performance. No different than vehicles or power tools. They aren't designed to fail, but they do if not properly maintained.
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Old 10-07-2012, 13:03   #53
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While I think that you're correct idealistically, the reality is different. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should shoot a ton, but I'd love to hear the average number of rounds that the everyday Joe shoots in a lifetime. Not arguing with you. I think you're 100% correct about design life expectancy.

This sort of reminds me of when Dirty Harry came out. Everybody and their brother went out and bought a Smith and Wesson Model 29 and probably 40% of them shot half a box of 44 Mag and sold the gun. (I love throwing out unprovable percentages. )That's why there are so many pristine examples of the "Dirty Harry gun" on the used market. Case in point:

The 10 Ring

I have scads of friends that have trade addiction. They shoot a couple boxes through their guns and sell or trade them for the newer and better fad gun. That's why I believe that there are relatively few shooters that rack up that round tally, so a 40K lifespan means nothing to them.

deadite
Absolutely! I snatched up my M29/8-3/8 for about 1/3 the cost of new (at the time), with less than a box through it. Now, it's seen over 20K rounds, albeit only about 2/3 of that being full power mags. That's a lot, 6 at a time over 20+ years. Anyone who can hold onto it, can comfortably shoot spl's all day long.
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Old 10-07-2012, 13:32   #54
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As much as I decry the use of reduced loads, even His Highness Keith the 1st, Lord Originator of the .44 Mag, advocated that it was really only required for about 10% of shooting.
He stated that shooting 10-20 rds/wk of full power loads should keep one acclimated to it & shot Specials the rest of the time, albet hotter than the factory Special loading.
Here is where I digress, as I have never shot more than a 5% reduced load in any of my .44 Mags, and most of my handloadds are at book max. (or over)
If I want to shoot .44 Special, I have a revolver chambered in that, and that one does not get hot-rodded.
My 10MM loads are also near the ragged edge.....the ONLY failure I've had with my G-20 was during an I.D.P.A. match, when I tried to "game" it with minimum power ammo.
The pistol ran fine in static testing, but had a f-t-f during part of a stage where it was necessary to walk backwards while shooting. Yeah, I cut my power too much, but as I said, I was gaming.
Cured me, never again have I tried anything less than a 95% load.

As I had posted earlier, I have WORN OUT a Ruger SuperBlackhawk, and it was replaced with another one.


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Old 10-07-2012, 14:56   #55
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True some went to a reduced load that was more in keeping with what Col. Cooper wanted in the first place, but it was still more than a 40.
Would what Uncle Jeff originally wanted be the magical 200 grain bullet at 1000 FPS? That spec. is partially correct but incomplete. It is not for a muzzle velocity. It's a target impact velocity requirement at any reasonable combat range (read 50 meters) and the bullet was to be a less than aerodynamic FMJTC. There's more to the story explaining how Norma got to the 200 @ 1,200 but that's a story for a different thread.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:44   #56
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I am sticking with the glock for the semi auto. correct me if i am wrong but they have the longest standing reputation with the 10 mm and they are just so darn easy to work on. Super soft shooters etc.

Recently i have been getting into revolvers and picked up a ruger buckeye in a trade. super sweet to shoot.

ruger redhawk 45lc 4 inch barrel for those days when i want sling heavy lead. uber nice handling weapon. of course its going to have cyclinder sent to get work to shoot 45 acp as well.

I am now considering the gp100 conversion (to 10mm /40) but man the price tag to do it has me holding back for a cheap trade then send it off. This may take a few years before it happens.

short term a longslide for the glock 20 would be a great addition.

Mech tech yeah but then I always go back to the idea that my AK can handl e any rifle needs.
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