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Old 09-30-2012, 00:59   #21
LexaDoig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegra View Post
I see a direct correlation between responsibility and shooting skill
The higher the skill , the higher the discipline
You dont see many blackbelts beating people up
Ganun din mga shooters ( wag lang may mental problem )
I've even heard some shooters say ayaw nila mapa away , baka magalit kapwa shooters nila if guns are blamed

this makes more sense
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:34   #22
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Originally Posted by LexaDoig View Post
dude that's exactly what im saying LOL
LOL my bad! (Or my browser's fault).

But I was actually quoting you because I agreed 110% with your premise (and, with Sgt Hatred's viewpoint, as well).

P.S. Tried to edit the post immediately after making it but my browser somehow wouldn't allow it.
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:30   #23
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lines drawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexaDoig View Post
the higher the rent, the more bad guys you filter out. that's your logic right?
yes, you understand it perfectly, hitting the nail on the head. i would change the word "bad" to "unqualified" though. i will explain further why this is the case.*

yes, the higher the rent (or entrance fee) the fewer badly behaved folks in general. applies to housing, parks, malls, clubs, movie houses, transportation, hotels, restaurants, internet forums, churches and strip clubs as well.

Quote:

you say you're ok with prices being artificially high but where do you draw the line? 2x? 3x? 100x? at what point do you think that you'll start filtering out the good guys intead? good people who don't make a lot of money...
if i must draw a line then i would say that i draw the line when a minimum wage earner saving 10% of his income so he can buy a firearm can not afford one after two years of saving. not that any lines i draw would ever actually mean anything to our rulers but since you asked that's my reply

i started saving for my first piece at 17 and by 21 i was able to afford a brand new german made autoloader. ate a lot of pancit canton and tuna in college but the sacrifice was worth it.

as it stands right now, minimum wage workers need to work around 16 months while saving 10% each month towards a gun to be able to raise 17,000 (this is if they just save and not invest at all and doesn't even take into account their 13th month pay, tips, sideline income, etcetera.)

formula i used:

P17000[cost of gun and license]/(1.33[hourly wage in usd]*42[convert to peso]*8[hours a day worked]*24[days a month worked]*.1[percent saved]) = 15.850638501 months and you got yourself a licensed piece.

i'd like to repeat my question that you have left unanswered. how cheap do you want guns to be? (also may i add, how did you arrive at that figure?) how easy would you like the process of acquiring one to be? why?

Quote:

you want more restrictive gun laws thinking that will solve our "gun problem" yet are completely missing the point just like our politicians. YOU ARE ONLY RESTRICTING LEGAL GUN OWNERS. criminal dude just grabs a gun from a security guard to buys one cheap from the black market
i don't want more restrictions, i am fed up with some of the restrictions actually.

i did mention that i am leaning towards advocating for requiring some tangible proof that applicants fully understand user manuals and the laws governing the particular kind of firearm they are to purchase including proper conduct when in personal possession of said firearm. this will of course be seen as a restriction but probably only by the illiterate and the lazy.

i am not into restricting qualified gun owners, for example i am actually an advocate of issue the PTC to the person not the weapon, ito talaga milking the cow na kasi.

the "criminal dude" who would gun grab has nothing to do with this discussion. the cost of legal guns can not have any appreciable effect on people who will acquire it illegally anyway.

black market guns are not always cheaper. in my experience they tend to be more expensive even, especially if you consider the quality that can be had for say, 17,000 pesos. armscor vs some anonymous guy on buyandsell with an as is where is danaoteeneleven.

Quote:

you think all your restrictions could have filtered out *****holes like allan bantilles? rolito go? they've got money and property so they must have tons of self-control right hehehe. mas mayaman, mas mayabang.
no, i do not think that. any system can and will be fooled from time to time.


* (of rent and logic)
as promised earlier, here is the explanation. it's a matter of figures and ratios. of course there are bad eggs in the ranks of the wealthy, and surely you will agree that there also are bad eggs in the ranks of the poor and all those in between.

which do you think is correct? (N being the number of people in that category, the letters a,b,c, and d being the classic "class" categories)

1.) N(a) + N(b) > N(c) + N(d)

or

2.) N(a) + N(b) < N(c) + N(d)











(correct answer is 2)

even if the incidence rate of bad eggs per 100 people is the same across all sectors, say two percent, you will always end up with more armed unqualified (bad?) people by making it easily available to the lower classes, always.

at present, there simply is just too many of them.

------------------------------------------------------------

i resorted to mathematical formulas for conciseness, and also for Allegra, he seems to enjoy Gladwell type writing and I am happy to oblige.

Last edited by randr1979; 09-30-2012 at 11:13..
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Old 09-30-2012, 14:28   #24
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My mother is filipino. I've been there in the past . Over there some of the poorest are the best people i have ever met. The ones with money have been the worst. Money is the root of all evil over there. The coruption is unreal. I know first hand how money saves the evil other there and no justice will be done because of some people were paid off. I think god I live in the US. We may have are issues here but we can protect your family no matter how poor or rich we are.
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Old 09-30-2012, 17:12   #25
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It's not so bad I cant imagine living anywhere else....well mykonos , greece maybe
Just stay out of the urban areas

i'm curious why ang mahal ng ptc.
considering they can revoke it anytime politicians/pnp chief wants to revoke the privelage
I think they ( pnp ) wil make more money if more people could afford it or think it's worth the gastos
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Old 09-30-2012, 20:08   #26
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I'm against any argument of artificial increasing the physical price of the guns.

Allegra already hits the nail on the correlation of responsible gunownership.

There is no need to add anything to the equation, except that the .gov is NOT IMPLEMENTING the law to the letter.

We already have the background clearances required, but this is subverted by the dealers and even the authorities themselves.

We do have the evaluative NPE (neuro-psychiatric exam), but lo! It is also corrupted.

Plus -- the source of income requirement.

CMIIW, but I know that by law only active gun club members are allowed to own more than two firearms -- and it 'used to be' that gun clubs are required to submit monthly list of active members INCLUDING MATCH RESULTS -- to facilitate approval of license renewal and PTTs, as well as a legitimate (and responsible) gun club GSRGO seminar (not the commercial paper mills).

PTCFOR requires a validated threat and has almost out of reach cost for lower-end middle-class.

@randr -- what more do you ask about the law? It's all in, except that the LEs and dealers themselves are encouraging its subversion, while the real law-abiding citizens gripe silently... Profit motive, pfeew!..

Strictly speaking -- how may does have legally-owned and legally-(transported) guns during a non-sanction PPSA match?
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Last edited by akula; 09-30-2012 at 20:18.. Reason: highlights
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Old 09-30-2012, 21:10   #27
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I'd rather live in a town w/ highly educated people ( like my hometown )
ot, fafa this will change slowly if not rapidly......gina lopez is trying to clean up the esteros and riverbanks of manila and she's throwing all those people/squatters in calauan. she expects them to live there on farming and other backyard cottage industries. gutom=crime. many perps caught here in san pablo have been traced to calauan resettlement..... only a matter of time when they get to LB.
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Old 09-30-2012, 21:16   #28
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we are in agreement

Quote:
Originally Posted by akula View Post
I'm against any argument of artificial increasing the physical price of the guns.
As am I. Remember i love having guns just as much as you do, perhaps even moreso, my family has been into the shooting sports for many generations.

please do not misconstrue my acceptance of the current pricing scheme for a call that it be jacked up even higher. baka pa isa isa na lang bili ko ng bala sa rifle pag minahalan pa nila. if anything, i actually support making it easier for companies to bring in intermediate and true high powered rifle rounds. i even support encouraging local manufacturers to tool up for their production and reloading.

there is more to life than 5.56x45.

but i digress...

it's not so much the price of the unit that makes it expensive, especially in the lower priced entry level firearms, it's the licensing and other fees.

for instance, in the case of the 38 spl armscor i so often cite, licensing and other fees comprise 35% of the cost to acquire.

of course imports will always cost more here than in the USA, shipping of these items aren't cheap. i imagine the insurance alone would be a significant amount.



Quote:
@randr -- what more do you ask about the law? :

not much more, in fact nothing more at this time. i do mention certain ideas that i am warming up to but aside from openly supporting the "ptc the person, not the firearm" there really is nothing more that i am asking of the law.

i maintain my positiion and do thank everyone who contributed for the intellectual stimulation. whether you agree or not, every moment you spend intelligently crafting a response is a moment spent helping to delay the onset of age related brain function deterioration.

now it's time to get back to the salt mines.
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Old 09-30-2012, 22:09   #29
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Originally Posted by atmarcella View Post
ot, fafa this will change slowly if not rapidly......gina lopez is trying to clean up the esteros and riverbanks of manila and she's throwing all those people/squatters in calauan. she expects them to live there on farming and other backyard cottage industries. gutom=crime. many perps caught here in san pablo have been traced to calauan resettlement..... only a matter of time when they get to LB.
Tama ka jan fafa
Already tumaas crime rate halos lahat yata ng towns nearby calauan , inluding ours
May advantage lang kami kasi it's a very small town w/ few access roads
And politicians and leos get stressed if a uplb student get harmed , kaya bantay na bantay ang kalye dito, madami checkpoints, plus may curfew for minors
Nga lang , patay ang nightlife
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Old 09-30-2012, 23:08   #30
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:07   #31
OctoberRust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randr1979 View Post
Why I am okay with guns and ammo being expensive.


Going through Cabelas and Brownells I can't help but notice that we Filipinos (minimum wage $1.33/hr) pay two to three times the price people in the USA (minimum wage $7.25/hr) pay for their guns and ammo. Add to that an average of P5,500.00 for licensing, tax and bond, etc. and you are easily paying more than two times what a person in the USA would pay to legally acquire a similar firearm.

I am ok with this.

I am not rich, I barely make ends meet on most days but I understand why having firearms priced high and also requiring rather huge fees for licensing and the granting of carry permits are a good thing.

Drug testing proves nothing, it just says (assuming proper reagents are actually used on the test) you did not have drugs on your system at the time you took the test. Methamphetamine clears up in 48 hours, Marijuana maybe three or four times that duration. Neuro psychiatric evaluations (if actually administered to the applicant) prove next to nothing, it just assures the government that the gun is not going to be handed over to an imbecile (some might debate this).

What are we left with? Cost. The high price of guns and ammo gives a certain level of assurance to society at large that only those who have given it considerable thought will actually go through with their intention to purchase a firearm. Even a relatively rich person will think more than once about spending P45,000.00 to buy a Glock, possibly even more for higher priced brands. Having guns in the hands of people who think about their actions first is more than likely a good thing.

If guns could be had cheaply and on impulse I would expect the rate of hotheaded people shooting at other people would go up, especially in over crowded places like Metro Manila.

Some gun aficionados at times complain that we are getting robbed of our hard earned pesos because of the exhorbitant prices we have to pay to continue and enjoy our passion legally. Everytime similar thoughts come to mind I just imagine the hordes of mostly uneducated and discorteous people who operate dirty diesel powered public conveyances, most of which would not be considered roadworthy if they were to be actually inspected (both the vehicle and operator) and then I imagine, what if this person could actually afford to arm himself with something more potent than a tire iron? I then gladly hand over the P3,000.00 (which is easily a third of what I make every two weeks) to the nice lady at the counter just so I can have another 30 rounds in my magazine for my rifle.

This theory would be great.... Assuming criminals followed laws. Assuming Criminals never stole guns from law abiding citizens.

Nice try though, and nice theory. Write it out in an essay format and submit it to the closest liberal professor. You'll have your college degree in no time flat.
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Old 10-01-2012, 18:28   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegra View Post
Tama ka jan fafa
Already tumaas crime rate halos lahat yata ng towns nearby calauan , inluding ours
May advantage lang kami kasi it's a very small town w/ few access roads
And politicians and leos get stressed if a uplb student get harmed , kaya bantay na bantay ang kalye dito, madami checkpoints, plus may curfew for minors
Nga lang , patay ang nightlife
May property yung uncle ko sa calauan na naka bakod ng concertina fence tapos yung poste at gawa sa concrete. one by one the concrete post are missing. Squatters from manila ang mga suspect.
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Old 10-02-2012, 02:44   #33
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influx

Kami naman we have been observing a steady rise in homeless badjao (redundant?) population in the locales where we have property. di naman talagang tabing dagat yet there they are.

i think this could be a unique subspecie that is evolving from aquatic to terrestrial, possibly due to global warming.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:36   #34
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Quote:
Nga lang , patay ang nightlife
punta ka nalang sa calamba....dun sa intersection hehehe.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:04   #35
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Originally Posted by randr1979 View Post
yes, the higher the rent (or entrance fee) the fewer badly behaved folks in general....

...even if the incidence rate of bad eggs per 100 people is the same across all sectors, say two percent, you will always end up with more armed unqualified (bad?) people by making it easily available to the lower classes, always.

at present, there simply is just too many of them.
Correct me if I'm wrong but your basic argument is: Low Income Person = unqualified/probable bad egg? If so, then I'm sorry to say that I have a fundamental disagreement with your position and actually find it a very discriminatory and elitist stand.

The poor already have less in terms of health care, education, employment opportunities, etc and now you also want to compromise their ability to defend themselves? Are they not people in your eyes? A poor person has as much a right to defend himself and his loved ones as the richest members of society and should not be deprived of the means to do so. Being poor does not automatically make one a bad person, nor his life of less value. You may find them rough and uncouth ("badly behaved"), but that does not make them criminals.

This is precisely why ProGun lobbied for the very affordable fees (iirc P600 per gun) for registering loose firearms during the last Firearms Amnesty. The solution is not to restrict firearms ownership to particular segments of society, but to make licensing easy and within reasonable reach of any law-abiding citizen (regardless of stature in society) who wants to own a gun (or guns) for whatever legal purpose it may serve.

Poor does not always equal bad. In fact it is from their ranks that we often see shining examples of selflessness, heroism, and nationalism. Ever see a rich guy brave floods to save others? I doubt it.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:01   #36
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and so i shall

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Originally Posted by BrassKnuckle View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but your basic argument is: Low Income Person = unqualified/probable bad egg?
Incorrect. It is closer to this:

low discretionary income* == indication of lack of self control


*- person making 10,000 a month but spending 9,999 (food, clothing, shelter) and a person making 50,000 but spending 49,999 (more expensive food, clothing, shelter) are in the same boat. At least in the sense that it will take them both practically forever (approx 1416 years) to save up the 17,000.

A good number of my closest friends and allies are basic wage earners, but through prudent use of meager resources they always have enough.

Quote:
Ever see a rich guy brave floods to save others? I doubt it.
Yes I have. In fact it is mostly my wealthier neighbours who have zodiacs and other rescue gear who were able to help the hapless poor in my area. The poor wanted to volunteer just as much I suppose but having no means to help meant they just ended up needing rescue.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:10   #37
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Bigotry at it's finest.
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Old 10-02-2012, 17:11   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock_19guy1983 View Post
With an attitude like that, no wonder you people have been conquered so much, you make the french look like badasses
This thread was based on the opinion of one man.

What's with the "you people" statement? Are you trying to incite a racial argument? Here's rules 4 and 5 of the GT Terms of Service:

4. Posts with racist or extremist comments or content are not allowed. That includes links to sites with such
content.

5. Absolutely NO racial, religious, or sexual bigotry is allowed at any time. Don't lower yourself into dragging
someones ethnicity or sexual orientation into an argument or disagreement.

Sorry I had to bring the rules up. I could just kick your ass but you can't do that over the internet.
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Old 10-02-2012, 17:20   #39
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I couldn't disagree more. Just because someone is disadvantaged financially and are struggling to support there family doesn't mean they don't deserve the right to defend themselves and their families. Pretty much anyone can find the money for a $150 highpoint. While not pretty, they are reliable these days.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:32   #40
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hehe before our stateside friends and critics ( watch strikeback btw ) decide to comment
someone financially disadvantaged in the US can be considered low middle class here in the Philippines
Financially disadvantaged people here in the Phiippines are wondering where their next meal will come from, dont have access to meds/education/livelihood
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