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Old 09-30-2012, 20:08   #26
akula
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I'm against any argument of artificial increasing the physical price of the guns.

Allegra already hits the nail on the correlation of responsible gunownership.

There is no need to add anything to the equation, except that the .gov is NOT IMPLEMENTING the law to the letter.

We already have the background clearances required, but this is subverted by the dealers and even the authorities themselves.

We do have the evaluative NPE (neuro-psychiatric exam), but lo! It is also corrupted.

Plus -- the source of income requirement.

CMIIW, but I know that by law only active gun club members are allowed to own more than two firearms -- and it 'used to be' that gun clubs are required to submit monthly list of active members INCLUDING MATCH RESULTS -- to facilitate approval of license renewal and PTTs, as well as a legitimate (and responsible) gun club GSRGO seminar (not the commercial paper mills).

PTCFOR requires a validated threat and has almost out of reach cost for lower-end middle-class.

@randr -- what more do you ask about the law? It's all in, except that the LEs and dealers themselves are encouraging its subversion, while the real law-abiding citizens gripe silently... Profit motive, pfeew!..

Strictly speaking -- how may does have legally-owned and legally-(transported) guns during a non-sanction PPSA match?
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Old 09-30-2012, 21:10   #27
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I'd rather live in a town w/ highly educated people ( like my hometown )
ot, fafa this will change slowly if not rapidly......gina lopez is trying to clean up the esteros and riverbanks of manila and she's throwing all those people/squatters in calauan. she expects them to live there on farming and other backyard cottage industries. gutom=crime. many perps caught here in san pablo have been traced to calauan resettlement..... only a matter of time when they get to LB.
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Old 09-30-2012, 21:16   #28
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we are in agreement

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Originally Posted by akula View Post
I'm against any argument of artificial increasing the physical price of the guns.
As am I. Remember i love having guns just as much as you do, perhaps even moreso, my family has been into the shooting sports for many generations.

please do not misconstrue my acceptance of the current pricing scheme for a call that it be jacked up even higher. baka pa isa isa na lang bili ko ng bala sa rifle pag minahalan pa nila. if anything, i actually support making it easier for companies to bring in intermediate and true high powered rifle rounds. i even support encouraging local manufacturers to tool up for their production and reloading.

there is more to life than 5.56x45.

but i digress...

it's not so much the price of the unit that makes it expensive, especially in the lower priced entry level firearms, it's the licensing and other fees.

for instance, in the case of the 38 spl armscor i so often cite, licensing and other fees comprise 35% of the cost to acquire.

of course imports will always cost more here than in the USA, shipping of these items aren't cheap. i imagine the insurance alone would be a significant amount.



Quote:
@randr -- what more do you ask about the law? :

not much more, in fact nothing more at this time. i do mention certain ideas that i am warming up to but aside from openly supporting the "ptc the person, not the firearm" there really is nothing more that i am asking of the law.

i maintain my positiion and do thank everyone who contributed for the intellectual stimulation. whether you agree or not, every moment you spend intelligently crafting a response is a moment spent helping to delay the onset of age related brain function deterioration.

now it's time to get back to the salt mines.
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Old 09-30-2012, 22:09   #29
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Originally Posted by atmarcella View Post
ot, fafa this will change slowly if not rapidly......gina lopez is trying to clean up the esteros and riverbanks of manila and she's throwing all those people/squatters in calauan. she expects them to live there on farming and other backyard cottage industries. gutom=crime. many perps caught here in san pablo have been traced to calauan resettlement..... only a matter of time when they get to LB.
Tama ka jan fafa
Already tumaas crime rate halos lahat yata ng towns nearby calauan , inluding ours
May advantage lang kami kasi it's a very small town w/ few access roads
And politicians and leos get stressed if a uplb student get harmed , kaya bantay na bantay ang kalye dito, madami checkpoints, plus may curfew for minors
Nga lang , patay ang nightlife
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Old 09-30-2012, 23:08   #30
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:07   #31
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Originally Posted by randr1979 View Post
Why I am okay with guns and ammo being expensive.


Going through Cabelas and Brownells I can't help but notice that we Filipinos (minimum wage $1.33/hr) pay two to three times the price people in the USA (minimum wage $7.25/hr) pay for their guns and ammo. Add to that an average of P5,500.00 for licensing, tax and bond, etc. and you are easily paying more than two times what a person in the USA would pay to legally acquire a similar firearm.

I am ok with this.

I am not rich, I barely make ends meet on most days but I understand why having firearms priced high and also requiring rather huge fees for licensing and the granting of carry permits are a good thing.

Drug testing proves nothing, it just says (assuming proper reagents are actually used on the test) you did not have drugs on your system at the time you took the test. Methamphetamine clears up in 48 hours, Marijuana maybe three or four times that duration. Neuro psychiatric evaluations (if actually administered to the applicant) prove next to nothing, it just assures the government that the gun is not going to be handed over to an imbecile (some might debate this).

What are we left with? Cost. The high price of guns and ammo gives a certain level of assurance to society at large that only those who have given it considerable thought will actually go through with their intention to purchase a firearm. Even a relatively rich person will think more than once about spending P45,000.00 to buy a Glock, possibly even more for higher priced brands. Having guns in the hands of people who think about their actions first is more than likely a good thing.

If guns could be had cheaply and on impulse I would expect the rate of hotheaded people shooting at other people would go up, especially in over crowded places like Metro Manila.

Some gun aficionados at times complain that we are getting robbed of our hard earned pesos because of the exhorbitant prices we have to pay to continue and enjoy our passion legally. Everytime similar thoughts come to mind I just imagine the hordes of mostly uneducated and discorteous people who operate dirty diesel powered public conveyances, most of which would not be considered roadworthy if they were to be actually inspected (both the vehicle and operator) and then I imagine, what if this person could actually afford to arm himself with something more potent than a tire iron? I then gladly hand over the P3,000.00 (which is easily a third of what I make every two weeks) to the nice lady at the counter just so I can have another 30 rounds in my magazine for my rifle.

This theory would be great.... Assuming criminals followed laws. Assuming Criminals never stole guns from law abiding citizens.

Nice try though, and nice theory. Write it out in an essay format and submit it to the closest liberal professor. You'll have your college degree in no time flat.
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Old 10-01-2012, 18:28   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegra View Post
Tama ka jan fafa
Already tumaas crime rate halos lahat yata ng towns nearby calauan , inluding ours
May advantage lang kami kasi it's a very small town w/ few access roads
And politicians and leos get stressed if a uplb student get harmed , kaya bantay na bantay ang kalye dito, madami checkpoints, plus may curfew for minors
Nga lang , patay ang nightlife
May property yung uncle ko sa calauan na naka bakod ng concertina fence tapos yung poste at gawa sa concrete. one by one the concrete post are missing. Squatters from manila ang mga suspect.
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Old 10-02-2012, 02:44   #33
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influx

Kami naman we have been observing a steady rise in homeless badjao (redundant?) population in the locales where we have property. di naman talagang tabing dagat yet there they are.

i think this could be a unique subspecie that is evolving from aquatic to terrestrial, possibly due to global warming.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:36   #34
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Quote:
Nga lang , patay ang nightlife
punta ka nalang sa calamba....dun sa intersection hehehe.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:04   #35
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Originally Posted by randr1979 View Post
yes, the higher the rent (or entrance fee) the fewer badly behaved folks in general....

...even if the incidence rate of bad eggs per 100 people is the same across all sectors, say two percent, you will always end up with more armed unqualified (bad?) people by making it easily available to the lower classes, always.

at present, there simply is just too many of them.
Correct me if I'm wrong but your basic argument is: Low Income Person = unqualified/probable bad egg? If so, then I'm sorry to say that I have a fundamental disagreement with your position and actually find it a very discriminatory and elitist stand.

The poor already have less in terms of health care, education, employment opportunities, etc and now you also want to compromise their ability to defend themselves? Are they not people in your eyes? A poor person has as much a right to defend himself and his loved ones as the richest members of society and should not be deprived of the means to do so. Being poor does not automatically make one a bad person, nor his life of less value. You may find them rough and uncouth ("badly behaved"), but that does not make them criminals.

This is precisely why ProGun lobbied for the very affordable fees (iirc P600 per gun) for registering loose firearms during the last Firearms Amnesty. The solution is not to restrict firearms ownership to particular segments of society, but to make licensing easy and within reasonable reach of any law-abiding citizen (regardless of stature in society) who wants to own a gun (or guns) for whatever legal purpose it may serve.

Poor does not always equal bad. In fact it is from their ranks that we often see shining examples of selflessness, heroism, and nationalism. Ever see a rich guy brave floods to save others? I doubt it.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:01   #36
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and so i shall

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Originally Posted by BrassKnuckle View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but your basic argument is: Low Income Person = unqualified/probable bad egg?
Incorrect. It is closer to this:

low discretionary income* == indication of lack of self control


*- person making 10,000 a month but spending 9,999 (food, clothing, shelter) and a person making 50,000 but spending 49,999 (more expensive food, clothing, shelter) are in the same boat. At least in the sense that it will take them both practically forever (approx 1416 years) to save up the 17,000.

A good number of my closest friends and allies are basic wage earners, but through prudent use of meager resources they always have enough.

Quote:
Ever see a rich guy brave floods to save others? I doubt it.
Yes I have. In fact it is mostly my wealthier neighbours who have zodiacs and other rescue gear who were able to help the hapless poor in my area. The poor wanted to volunteer just as much I suppose but having no means to help meant they just ended up needing rescue.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:10   #37
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Bigotry at it's finest.
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Old 10-02-2012, 17:11   #38
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With an attitude like that, no wonder you people have been conquered so much, you make the french look like badasses
This thread was based on the opinion of one man.

What's with the "you people" statement? Are you trying to incite a racial argument? Here's rules 4 and 5 of the GT Terms of Service:

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Sorry I had to bring the rules up. I could just kick your ass but you can't do that over the internet.
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Old 10-02-2012, 17:20   #39
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I couldn't disagree more. Just because someone is disadvantaged financially and are struggling to support there family doesn't mean they don't deserve the right to defend themselves and their families. Pretty much anyone can find the money for a $150 highpoint. While not pretty, they are reliable these days.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:32   #40
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hehe before our stateside friends and critics ( watch strikeback btw ) decide to comment
someone financially disadvantaged in the US can be considered low middle class here in the Philippines
Financially disadvantaged people here in the Phiippines are wondering where their next meal will come from, dont have access to meds/education/livelihood
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:27   #41
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Originally Posted by randr1979 View Post
...The poor wanted to volunteer just as much I suppose but having no means to help meant they just ended up needing rescue.
Just like when they didn't have boats during the floods, the poor will also need rescuing from assailants if they are deprived of efficient means of defending themselves.

I hope you and your friends are up to that task again because, as the saying goes: "To whom much is given, much is expected."
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:28   #42
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great

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Originally Posted by boomhower View Post
I couldn't disagree more. Just because someone is disadvantaged financially and are struggling to support there family doesn't mean they don't deserve the right to defend themselves and their families. Pretty much anyone can find the money for a $150 highpoint. While not pretty, they are reliable these days.
Hi-Points are great toolbox guns, simple and it just keeps working. i can't wait for it to get to our shores. send some over will ya?

We are basically in agreement, my stand is pretty much the same. I believe anyone of decent ability who is not saddled with vices (aside from an addiction to cordite) and keeps the number of mouths he has to feed manageable can come up with P17,000 (US$404*) well within two years.

Start working and saving at 19 and you will have enough for a gun by the time you are legal to own one.

Anybody who wants to but can not scrounge up that amount probably needs to rethink their way of life and reevaluate their priorities.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
* $404 is indeed significantly more than $150 but maybe it's just because our economy is in better shape now and people here can generally afford to pay higher prices for things like guns and ammo.
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:53   #43
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sectors

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Originally Posted by BrassKnuckle View Post
Just like when they didn't have boats during the floods, the poor will also need rescuing from assailants if they are deprived of efficient means of defending themselves.
I'm not sure which sector of the poor you are referring to. If it's the illegal settlers then I really can not think of anybody who would want to attack them, especially during a calamity (except perhaps a fellow illegal settler who has gone insane). What would one gain by attacking them?

Besides, homeless people are barred from owning firearms, you can not put NPA in the address field of the license application form and expect it to be approved.

If it's the struggling but employed sector we'll we go back to my lesson in arithmetic. Working a minimum wage job? Save 10% for your defense fund, don't smoke or drink alcohol, don't have too many kids or delay having one and by the time you get your 13th month pay you're squared away.

Quote:
I hope you and your friends are up to that task again because, as the saying goes: "To whom much is given, much is expected."
My friends are up to it, I am not. I haven't bought a zodiac yet. I compensate by living on higher ground. My disaster management capabilities are limited to operating battery operated reverse osmosis water systems so my people can have clean water to drink.
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Old 10-02-2012, 21:21   #44
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The high cost for guns and ammo means there will always be an available supply for wealthy criminals.
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Old 10-02-2012, 22:42   #45
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Originally Posted by bikethief View Post
This thread was based on the opinion of one man.

What's with the "you people" statement? Are you trying to incite a racial argument? Here's rules 4 and 5 of the GT Terms of Service:

4. Posts with racist or extremist comments or content are not allowed. That includes links to sites with such
content.

5. Absolutely NO racial, religious, or sexual bigotry is allowed at any time. Don't lower yourself into dragging
someones ethnicity or sexual orientation into an argument or disagreement.

Sorry I had to bring the rules up. I could just kick your ass but you can't do that over the internet.
if we want to lower ourselves to his level -

Yup, we got outgunned and conquered...... by superpowers
At least we didnt get our butt kicked and ran out of indochina by farmers
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Old 10-04-2012, 17:26   #46
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Originally Posted by bikethief View Post
This thread was based on the opinion of one man.

What's with the "you people" statement? Are you trying to incite a racial argument? Here's rules 4 and 5 of the GT Terms of Service:

4. Posts with racist or extremist comments or content are not allowed. That includes links to sites with such
content.

5. Absolutely NO racial, religious, or sexual bigotry is allowed at any time. Don't lower yourself into dragging
someones ethnicity or sexual orientation into an argument or disagreement.

Sorry I had to bring the rules up. I could just kick your ass but you can't do that over the internet.
Brother, this retired old white guy would be glad to help fund your trip to America (as long as I got good tickets to the ass kickings)

Some folks go through life with blinders on to the rest of the world. My only blinders are color filters. I treat a man as such, and only ask the same in return.

Many years ago, my father left a piece of his soul in your country. Ang puting tao sabi, "Diyos sa iyo"
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Old 10-04-2012, 19:41   #47
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Hahahaha! Thanks for the offer, sir. I visit your side of the world quite often and would be glad to share a drink or two on my next trip. Preferably somewhere with a cage, ring, or a big parking lot in the back so we can invite our undereducated friend.

Glad to hear your dad had good memories of the Philippines. Give us a heads up if you plan to visit.

"God be with you too.", says the brown man with the big stick.
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Old 10-04-2012, 22:12   #48
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Hahahaha! Thanks for the offer, sir. I visit your side of the world quite often and would be glad to share a drink or two on my next trip. Preferably somewhere with a cage, ring, or a big parking lot in the back so we can invite our undereducated friend.

Glad to hear your dad had good memories of the Philippines. Give us a heads up if you plan to visit.

"God be with you too.", says the brown man with the big stick.
Will do, my friend!
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Old 10-05-2012, 21:12   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randr1979 View Post
how cheap do you want it to be? how easy do you want it to acquire ba?
well how cheep will depend on the open market
I will say that for a new glock $450 up to $600 no where near the $1000
no permit like we do in Texas unless you want to carry
CHL is $250 for 4 years
and when we get constitutional carry $0.00
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:48   #50
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Make the PTC too expensive and it will be seen as for the rich only. You dont want it to be too cheap as well that everyone will just want to have one for the sake of it
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