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Old 09-26-2012, 21:53   #101
nraman
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Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
I think I'll try this in conjunction with a non-LCI 9mm SLB. The increased spring compression offered by this SLB seems to help the crappy extractor claw to get a better grip.
I would definitely try that. I don't see how it can hurt.
Another thing I would try, I'd bend the ejector up .001-.002, to make the ejector hit the case a little higher and hopefully push the case to the side instead of up. I keep thinking that the narrow tip of the ejector might be a problem, a wider tip with an angle to match the case face at the moment of the ejection would give more predictable ejection IMO.
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Old 09-26-2012, 22:25   #102
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Originally Posted by Beretta92guy View Post
i had been saying this MONTHS ago, that the slides were out-of-spec....
I think it was proved to be the case by a member who swapped slides and frames and the problem followed the slide.
I also believe that it is possible that tolerance stacking in the slide can affect the point where the ejector hits the case, if it hits low it would have the tendency to flip it up.
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Old 09-27-2012, 00:59   #103
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Originally Posted by PAGunner View Post
I changed platforms over this problem. Too bad all the Kool aid drinking fanboys didn't do that from day one, cause if they did erratic ejection would have been long since fixed.

I'm glad they didn't however, I love the way my M&Ps feel in my hand and perform. I could never go back to the akward angled block grip.
Does the M&P have an external safety? One of the biggest draws to Glock for me (other than flawless performance...which is obviously not the case) is the simplicity...about as simple as you can get without a wheel gun. I like the feel of the XD pistols too, but the Glocks are so simple.


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Old 09-27-2012, 01:11   #104
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Has anyone had this problem with the 357 Sig? Maybe I just found another reason to go with that caliber


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Old 09-27-2012, 05:16   #105
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Does the M&P have an external safety?
It comes with and without a thumb safety. If you live in a free state (as opposed to a slave state) you have a choice. Two slightly different models - the thumb safety being the only difference. Mine operates as a Glock operates. Not quite as easy to field strip, although not bad. Not quite as accurate, but the major accuracy problems that early M&P's had seem to be in the past. Ergos are better. Some people don't like the trigger, which can be replaced with an Apex unit. I let mine break in, and I think the trigger is fine. Detail stripping the frame is more time consuming than a Glock. The extractor is far superior, and function is flawless for all but a very few. Hanging out at the M&P forum you hear some complaints about accuracy, but you hardly ever hear about jams or brass to the face. Mine has gone 1000+ rounds with no issues of any kind with good/bad/and indifferent ammo.

I do prefer the simplicity of the Glock internals, and it is slightly more accurate. The M&P has a much slower twist and conventional rifling. Fussier about ammo, but you can shoot lead without the controversy.
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:17   #106
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Arc Angel, you said the Lone Wolf extractor had a worse ejection than the OEM. Also that the SLB and plunger spring may also have some bearing. I told of switching extractors between new and newer 19s and whichever 19 had the latest extractor had the problem. So in my situation, a different extractor for my latest 19 might be the answer for me. I'm hoping that the Lone Wolf extractor saves the day.

My two 26s which are early 2011 and 2012 models eject just fine. Do any of the 26s experience poor ejection? If things don't work out for my 19, I'm thinking about trading it for another 26. That is unless it's another crap shoot like the 19.
In and of itself I very much doubt it. Personally I’m with the poster who said that you’ve got to change, at least, two or more components before you can expect a positive result.

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I had been saying this MONTHS ago, that the slides were out-of-spec ....
Yeah, I’m starting to think that you’re right, too! The size of the slide cutouts for the new MIM extractors, at least for awhile and on some units, might have been increased; maybe, by no more than 1/1,000th of an inch, or so, but increased nonetheless. (Whether or not Glock, GmbH is still doing this, or whether or not this was done universally, I do not know?)

I’m, now, running the newest Glock OEM extractor; and there is a lot of play in that sucker - Not just up and down, either. There’s, also, a discernable amount of forward and backward movement, too. I’ll tell you something else I’ve noticed: Much of this, ‘extractor problem’ occurs when the expelled casing becomes able to slip downward inside the extractor’s claw. All it has to do is slip by, about, 1/100th of an inch; and, voila, a #336 ejector is going to hit the 7 or 8 o’clock position on that case head with potentially disastrous results!

(Watch your eyes! So far, I’ve taken more than a dozen strikes to the bill of my ball cap, as well as 2 or 3 ejected cases right into the front of my glasses!)

From what I can tell it’s not just the symmetry of the extractor claw or the height of the extractor that’s involved. The problem is more complex than that. For instance: If the diameter of the slide hole the extractor's round, ‘movement limiter’ nests into is slightly oversized, then, there’s going to be just enough additional front-to-back movement to produce a discernible effect on the extractor's ability to tightly hold onto to a moving case head.

Neither do I agree with the fellow who’s doing so much posting about this problem over on M4 Carbine. Why? Because by the time the barrel moves backwards and ever so slightly touches the top of the locking block this problem has already begun to occur. Barrel movement, in and of itself, is NOT a factor in the, ‘BTF problem’.

I’m, also, against lowering the height of the slide's ejection port because this is a remedial solution that addresses a symptom of the problem rather than the problem, itself. SOMETHING has to hold the ejecting cartridge head in place and prevent it from slipping downward as the case is pulled out of the firing chamber. (The question becomes, 'What'?)

It should, also, be obvious that the downward moving barrel applies only a minimal amount of downward force to the ejecting case. (In my opinion NOT sufficient enough, nor of a long enough duration, to cause an ejecting case to drop, appreciably.) This problem revolves around a summation of any and all forces that inhibit an ejecting case's propensity toward downward travel.

One factor that no one seems to have considered, so far, is the profile on the front of the slide pickup rail. To my eye, a very slight forward protrusion at the bottom of the pickup rail’s face would certainly inhibit the case head's tendency to drop during the extraction process.

Other factors which contribute to holding the expelled case head in place, and above the 7 or 8 o’clock trouble point include: a more tightly grasping extractor claw, a different extractor claw geometry, a more rigidly held in place extractor, and a different profile on the ejector’s head. I’m, ‘reaching’ on this one; but, I’m also suspicious of any possible difference in the coefficients-of-friction between milled steel, and MIM (sintered) metal. (In other words: A MIM part might be too slippery to work well as an extractor.)

I couldn’t sleep last night; so, after offering the appropriate prayers for Yom Kippur, (The Day of Atonement) I spent the rest of the night meticulously taking my G-19’s slide apart and carefully studying the mechanical relationships between the various parts. The incipient conclusion I’ve drawn indicates that a list of different things both causes and can correct Glock’s, ‘BTF problem’.

This is, ‘Why’ a Glock owner can, occasionally, change just one part and achieve a satisfactory result. This is, also, ‘Why’ ,oftentimes, changing just one part does not work. For lack of better words: A, ‘stacking of mechanical tolerances’ as well as varying finished slide dimensions ALL contribute to this extremely annoying and potentially dangerous Glock problem.

Neither have the factory’s, by now, several, ‘quick fixes’ actually done anything to genuinely correct the problem. It might, in fact, take a complete slide replacement in order to completely get rid of Glock’s, ‘BTF problem’; and, with any foreign company as historically omnivorous as Glock, GmbH/Inc., I don’t see much chance for something like this to happen. So, workable solutions are going to be up to: you, me, and a few imaginative Glock parts suppliers. Good luck to all of us!

If I have anything new to report after examining a flawlessly performing Glock later on today I’ll post again on this topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nraman View Post
I would definitely try that. I don't see how it can hurt.

Another thing I would try, I'd bend the ejector up .001-.002, to make the ejector hit the case a little higher and hopefully push the case to the side instead of up. I keep thinking that the narrow tip of the ejector might be a problem, a wider tip with an angle to match the case face at the moment of the ejection would give more predictable ejection. IMO.
Yeah, if you’re using a #336 ejector I can see where this might have a beneficial effect.
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Old 09-27-2012, 22:33   #107
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Originally Posted by dhgeyer View Post
It comes and without a thumb safety. Ive in a free state (as opposed to a slave state) you have a choice. Two slightly different models - the thumb safety being the only difference. Mine operates as a Glock operates. Not quite as easy to field strip, although not bad. Not quite as accurate, but the major accuracy problems that early M&P's had seem to be in the past. Ergos are better. Some people don't like the trigger, which can be replaced with an Apex unit. I let mine break in, and I think the trigger is fine. Detail stripping the frame is more time consuming than a Glock. The extractor is far superior, and function is flawless for all but a very few. Hanging out at the M&P forum you hear some complaints about accuracy, but you hardly ever hear about jams or brass to the face. Mine has gone 1000+ rounds with no issues of any kind with good/bad/and indifferent ammo.

I do prefer the simplicity of the Glock internals, and it is slightly more accurate. The M&P has a much slower twist and conventional rifling. Fussier about ammo, but you can shoot lead without the controversy.

Actually the accuracy problems still exist, your chance of getting a M&P with terrible accuracy is probably equal to having a Glock ejecting at your face. Some 9mm's did have a problem originally when it shared the same extractor of the 40 models and exhibited similar ejection problems. Apex made a 9mm specific extractor for them too. They are good guns overall after the issues are resolved but I prefer Gen 4 Glocks.
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Old 09-28-2012, 01:32   #108
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Actually the accuracy problems still exist, your chance of getting a M&P with terrible accuracy is probably equal to having a Glock ejecting at your face...

http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/...m-barrels.html
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:33   #109
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your chance of getting a M&P with terrible accuracy is probably equal to having a Glock ejecting at your face. Glocks.
I don't think that point is provable either way scientifically. If anyone is collecting that data (like Smith and Glock) they're not saying. If you hang out on the relevant forums, however, and compare the number of posts complaining or inquiring about the problems, the Smiths are not having anywhere near the number of problem guns that Glock is.

Look at this thread in this forum. As soon as the Apex extractor came out thousands of people are lining up to get one - including me. It costs sixty bucks. If there was a similar fix for the M&P's with accuracy problems, I doubt you'd see that kind of response. It just has not been that widespread of a problem.

You also have to bear in mind that brass to the face, or out and out jamming, are concrete, measurable occurrences. With people having accuracy issues you always have to keep in mind the possibility that they are new shooters, or not very good shooters, and can't hit what they are aiming at, and blame the gun because they heard an Internet rumor.

Lastly, I personally, would rather have a gun that is 100% reliable but not all that accurate than one that jams or sends brass back in my face.

I have a new M&P Full Size 9mm. New barrel type. 900+ rounds without a single case to face. No failures or issues of any kind. Very consistent ejection. Accuracy with Gold Dots is very good. I think I have a handload that shoots very well also, but more testing is in order to confirm that. WWB and similar cheap stuff does not do well in the M&P accuracy wise.

I have a KKM barrel for the M&P. I have not seen any improvement in accuracy with it. YMMV.

Having said all that, I will agree that I prefer the Glock 19 design for its simplicity and ease of maintenance. I just wish someone other than Glock would start making that exact gun to the same standards of quality and reliability that Glock used to maintain.

Last edited by dhgeyer; 09-28-2012 at 06:37..
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:19   #110
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Originally Posted by Glock2336 View Post
Actually the accuracy problems still exist, your chance of getting a M&P with terrible accuracy is probably equal to having a Glock ejecting at your face. Some 9mm's did have a problem originally when it shared the same extractor of the 40 models and exhibited similar ejection problems. Apex made a 9mm specific extractor for them too. They are good guns overall after the issues are resolved but I prefer Gen 4 Glocks.
My M&Ps have been flawless, including a FS .40, compact .40, Shield .40 & FS .45, no accuracy issues.
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:22   #111
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Does the M&P have an external safety? One of the biggest draws to Glock for me (other than flawless performance...which is obviously not the case) is the simplicity...about as simple as you can get without a wheel gun. I like the feel of the XD pistols too, but the Glocks are so simple.


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Only my shield .40 has an external safety & it's small and unobtrusive (I don't use it).
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:37   #112
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Originally Posted by Glock2336 View Post
Actually the accuracy problems still exist, your chance of getting a M&P with terrible accuracy is probably equal to having a Glock ejecting at your face. Some 9mm's did have a problem originally when it shared the same extractor of the 40 models and exhibited similar ejection problems. Apex made a 9mm specific extractor for them too. They are good guns overall after the issues are resolved but I prefer Gen 4 Glocks.
I'm still getting some vertical stringing. Granted, this was shot standing unsupported at 45 feet. The fourth and fifth shots (not shown) had one directly above and below the three shot string shown.

General Glocking
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:53   #113
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Just checked my mail and had a nice surprise waiting for me. My apex extractor arrived. It might be a few days before I can test it out, but I will report back.
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Old 09-28-2012, 13:32   #114
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I'm still getting some vertical stringing. Granted, this was shot standing unsupported at 45 feet. The fourth and fifth shots (not shown) had one directly above and below the three shot string shown.

General Glocking
kodiakpb, If you contact LabelsAndMore.com you can get a roll of 1,000 1 1/2" black dots for the center of your dinner plate targets - All for less than $12.00.

http://store.labelsandmore.com/produ...cat=260&page=1

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Just checked my mail and had a nice surprise waiting for me. My apex extractor arrived. It might be a few days before I can test it out, but I will report back.
Let's hope it's a, 'nice surprise'! (Be sure to let the rest of us know, OK.)
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Old 09-28-2012, 13:40   #115
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kodiakpb, If you contact LabelsAndMore.com you can get a roll of 1,000 1 1/2" black dots for the center of your dinner plate targets - All for less than $12.00.

http://store.labelsandmore.com/produ...cat=260&page=1
Fantastic... thanks for the link
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Old 09-28-2012, 14:15   #116
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post

I agree with Hilton Yam most of the time but not here, there is a change to the barrel that happened previously for strength but does not have a different barrel twist. Any gain in accuracy in precision between the two are a result of better Quality Control on that gun. My 9mm M&P's were acceptable out to 25 yards with hot Ranger-T but my Gen 4 G19 easily topped them with the same ammo.
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Old 09-28-2012, 14:28   #117
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I don't think that point is provable either way scientifically. If anyone is collecting that data (like Smith and Glock) they're not saying. If you hang out on the relevant forums, however, and compare the number of posts complaining or inquiring about the problems, the Smiths are not having anywhere near the number of problem guns that Glock is.

Look at this thread in this forum. As soon as the Apex extractor came out thousands of people are lining up to get one - including me. It costs sixty bucks. If there was a similar fix for the M&P's with accuracy problems, I doubt you'd see that kind of response. It just has not been that widespread of a problem.

You also have to bear in mind that brass to the face, or out and out jamming, are concrete, measurable occurrences. With people having accuracy issues you always have to keep in mind the possibility that they are new shooters, or not very good shooters, and can't hit what they are aiming at, and blame the gun because they heard an Internet rumor.

Lastly, I personally, would rather have a gun that is 100% reliable but not all that accurate than one that jams or sends brass back in my face.

I have a new M&P Full Size 9mm. New barrel type. 900+ rounds without a single case to face. No failures or issues of any kind. Very consistent ejection. Accuracy with Gold Dots is very good. I think I have a handload that shoots very well also, but more testing is in order to confirm that. WWB and similar cheap stuff does not do well in the M&P accuracy wise.

I have a KKM barrel for the M&P. I have not seen any improvement in accuracy with it. YMMV.

Having said all that, I will agree that I prefer the Glock 19 design for its simplicity and ease of maintenance. I just wish someone other than Glock would start making that exact gun to the same standards of quality and reliability that Glock used to maintain.


I'm not sure where you're hanging out but I've found as many problems with 9mm M&P's shooting acceptable groups on forums with shooters that actually shoot to 25 yards and beyond like Pistol-Training,Lightfighter, M4C and some on the M&P forum. Randy Lee had Bruce Gray (who shoots Bianchi Cup) shoot his test 9L to 50 yards with unacceptable results.
The theory is when the Compact models were introduced the Full Sized barrels were changed to stream line production yet gave some of them an early unlocking problem which Randy and Apex diagnosed with High Speed Camera footage. Depending on tolerance stacking, you may or may not have a decent grouping 9mm M&P.

Let's also not forget the change of sear plungers to alleviate the "Dead Triggers" aka Sear not resetting.
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Old 09-28-2012, 15:17   #118
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I don't think that point is provable either way scientifically. If anyone is collecting that data (like Smith and Glock) they're not saying. If you hang out on the relevant forums, however, and compare the number of posts complaining or inquiring about the problems, the Smiths are not having anywhere near the number of problem guns that Glock is.

Look at this thread in this forum. As soon as the Apex extractor came out thousands of people are lining up to get one - including me. It costs sixty bucks. If there was a similar fix for the M&P's with accuracy problems, I doubt you'd see that kind of response. It just has not been that widespread of a problem.

You also have to bear in mind that brass to the face, or out and out jamming, are concrete, measurable occurrences. With people having accuracy issues you always have to keep in mind the possibility that they are new shooters, or not very good shooters, and can't hit what they are aiming at, and blame the gun because they heard an Internet rumor.

Lastly, I personally, would rather have a gun that is 100% reliable but not all that accurate than one that jams or sends brass back in my face.

I have a new M&P Full Size 9mm. New barrel type. 900+ rounds without a single case to face. No failures or issues of any kind. Very consistent ejection. Accuracy with Gold Dots is very good. I think I have a handload that shoots very well also, but more testing is in order to confirm that. WWB and similar cheap stuff does not do well in the M&P accuracy wise.

I have a KKM barrel for the M&P. I have not seen any improvement in accuracy with it. YMMV.

Having said all that, I will agree that I prefer the Glock 19 design for its simplicity and ease of maintenance. I just wish someone other than Glock would start making that exact gun to the same standards of quality and reliability that Glock used to maintain.


I missed the bold above, you must not travel to many other forums:

Apex's Bar-Sto M&P barrel preview started by me with 35,000+ views so far and 200+ responses:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81124

Storm Lake's barrel with even more responses and views:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104659


And that is only M4C, I can easily post other places.
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Old 09-28-2012, 15:20   #119
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My M&Ps have been flawless, including a FS .40, compact .40, Shield .40 & FS .45, no accuracy issues.


Yeah cause I specified 9mm
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Old 09-28-2012, 15:49   #120
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I missed the bold above, you must not travel to many other forums:

Apex's Bar-Sto M&P barrel preview started by me with 35,000+ views so far and 200+ responses:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81124

Storm Lake's barrel with even more responses and views:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104659


And that is only M4C, I can easily post other places.
Guess I must be lucky. With the right ammo mine shoots better than I can. It is ammo sensitive. I wouldn't spend the money for another barrel. The KKM didn't help. I don't need a fitted barrel.

I don't frequent the M4C forum. You may be right that the problem is more widespread than I thought. But is it still a problem on new guns? Or is it mostly people with older ones looking for a fix? My understanding is that S&W addressed the issue.
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