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Old 09-27-2012, 12:13   #1
Snowman92D
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PA state police stop using OC spray

Article says some academy recruits had sustained eye injuries during a OC spray class. It appears they're using the Mark 4 from Defense Technologies.

http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/...ry-pepp/nSLwj/

Isn't one of the membership here currently in the PA state academy?
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:33   #2
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Unspecified eye injuries... Someone got too close to a recruit with the canister and the overpressure ruptured blood vessels, abraded a cornea, aggravated an existing condition, etc.?
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:56   #3
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We had a recruit who got a chemical burn to their eyes from Def-Tec stuff. I stand by my earlier statements that they just need to toughen up, buttercup!
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:58   #4
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They still need to be hit with it. Being state cops, I'm sure they'll interact with all manner of local agencies (especially in PA, where there are 129,713,327,108,342 municipal police departments, give or take). As long as those folks are using OC, the troops are going to end up exposed.

As long as they don't take their radar, I guess.
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Old 09-27-2012, 13:12   #5
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I stand by my earlier statements that they just need to toughen up, buttercup!
I know we always had some cake-azzes in every academy class who always claimed they were "hurt" because of exposure to OC.

Usually it was with the FoxLabs spray, but the number varied from zero to as many as, say, four. You don't know what to say to the cry-babies or the media. They don't want us to shoot or club anyone, of course, and we have to have something to bring put-of-control people back under control. Then they snivel if you taze people...and mandate that you hire and graduate IBO's who are skeered to mix it up with anyone.

I heard somewhere that the real hard-case coppers unloaded their duty firearm before going hands-on with a resister.
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Old 09-27-2012, 13:30   #6
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We had a recruit who got a chemical burn to their eyes from Def-Tec stuff. I stand by my earlier statements that they just need to toughen up, buttercup!
I'd volunteer to get sprayed again. The stuff really doesn't bother me much. Neither did the CS at boot camp.
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Old 09-27-2012, 14:30   #7
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Hydraulic needle effect? There's a quick and easy way to avoid that, as most here know. For the most part, our rank and file paycheck absorption specialists are nowhere near the caliber of a typical class in a State Police academy, but I have never heard of any such injuries occurring.

Time to reevaluate training procedures?
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Old 09-27-2012, 15:25   #8
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We had an injury from OC a couple classes back. It does happen, and spraying directly in the eyeballs from close distance is a poor practice IMO.

You can feel the effects with a fogger with less chance of injury, goggles, or having recruits close their eyes.

We were told that if our eyes were open, we would be sprayed again when I went through my first academy.
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Old 09-27-2012, 15:33   #9
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A simple way of training and precluding injuries is to use a 'gas house' like the military does. Sent recruits in, use fans to circulate air throughout the small building, and use a Mk 9 canister to expose everyone. No direct face spraying needed and the recruits get the OC effect.

Of course, it is more efficient for the unintelligent CALEA types to over-react and set out a new policy and memoranda to justify their existence.

Last edited by blueiron; 09-27-2012 at 16:08..
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Old 09-27-2012, 15:51   #10
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A simple way of training and precluding injuries is to use a 'gas house' like the military does. Sent recruits in, use fans to circulate air throughout the small building, and use a Mk 9 canister to expose everyone. No direct face spraying needed and the recruits get the OC effect.

Of course, it is more efficient for the unintelligent CALEA types of over-react and set out a new policy and memoranda to justify their existence.
Exactly. To me, this would be a very reasonable thing to do to reduce injuries.
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Old 09-27-2012, 16:02   #11
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Hydraulic needle effect? There's a quick and easy way to avoid that, as most here know. For the most part, our rank and file paycheck absorption specialists are nowhere near the caliber of a typical class in a State Police academy, but I have never heard of any such injuries occurring.

Time to reevaluate training procedures?
close eyes, spray across forehead.... open eyes.. GO
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Old 09-27-2012, 16:11   #12
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close eyes, spray across forehead.... open eyes.. GO
That policy would never fly. Lawyers would have to expand it to a ten page policy that nobody could understand.
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Old 09-27-2012, 17:02   #13
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We were sprayed with fox labs. Stuff is rough. One guy had a problem with an eye. It did something to his cornea and his eye was jacked for about 2 weeks. Other than that..no issues. Except it burned like holy hell!

We closed eyes, they hit us in the forehead then we had to open our eyes as it ran down the face. From there, we did the course (different defense type hands on scenarios, shooting a firearm, calling for help via radio while giving our location etc..). Good stuff.

Fox Labs makes one hot product.
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Old 09-27-2012, 17:08   #14
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close eyes, spray across forehead.... open eyes.. GO
You must define the term "close eyes". To what level of inch pounds defines the minimum force to specify "close eyes"? To what level of inch pounds defines maximum permissible force concerning "close eyes"?

What is the maximal and minimal amount of dermal surface area which would define "forehead"? Women with 'bangs' will endure a lesser amount of OC than a male with a shaved head and prominent facial structure.

Length of spray duration? Amount of average pressurization within the can? Maximum permissible? Minimum permissible? Distance to target? Pattern specified? Foam or aerosol? Specified solute?

What level of force is required to "open eyes"? What level of corneal exposure defines "open eyes"? Asians and many aboriginal peoples have a lesser amount of corneal exposure that do Caucasians or Africans? How do we define the exposure to minimize and preclude allegations of racism?

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Old 09-27-2012, 17:20   #15
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I heard somewhere that the real hard-case coppers unloaded their duty firearm before going hands-on with a resister.
Most of them unload it into the dirtbag, but there was that one with nothing less than 100% convictions.
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Old 09-27-2012, 17:39   #16
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We had one guy that had some issues with his eyes swelling up. Medical took him to the ER and they put a contrapion on his head that had two small hoses running into the corner of each eye & they flooded both with water or saline or something for an hour or so. I kept trying to convince them that mine were swollen too so I could get a turn at the mega-rinse machine, but no go.
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Old 09-27-2012, 17:57   #17
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They still need to be hit with it. Being state cops, I'm sure they'll interact with all manner of local agencies (especially in PA, where there are 129,713,327,108,342 municipal police departments, give or take). As long as those folks are using OC, the troops are going to end up exposed.

As long as they don't take their radar, I guess.
Your number for depts in PA is WAY low.
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Old 09-27-2012, 17:58   #18
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Nothing surprises me anymore. Knew about a cop from another agency that decided his hearing had been damaged by repetitive use of a siren . . .

OC accidents can and do happen. Got my eyes scorched by the propellant when an instructor got too close. No permanent damage and chalked it up as a learning lesson regarding application. However, the whole baby/bathwater thing comes to mind with this one.
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Old 09-27-2012, 18:18   #19
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Your number for depts in PA is WAY low.

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Old 09-27-2012, 19:00   #20
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I wish we were allowed to close our eyes and then get sprayed across the forehead. We got sprayed in the eyes with Fox 5.3; I thought my eyes were melting out of their sockets.

We had on guy who reacted badly to getting sprayed. His eyes were messed up for a week, but he was fine after that.
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