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Old 09-20-2012, 08:13   #1
muscogee
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Pastors pledge to defy IRS, preach politics from pulpit ahead of election

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/20...head-election/

IMO, if churches are going to do this they should lose their tax free status.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:22   #2
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/20...head-election/

IMO, if churches are going to do this they should lose their tax free status.
I see you don't support the Constitution. If I were the churches, I would refuse to allow any part of the church building to be used as a poling place then.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:18   #3
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/20...head-election/

IMO, if churches are going to do this they should lose their tax free status.
I think churches should be taxed period. They waste piles of American dollars each year shoveling it into third world hell holes. Which they can since it's their money... but they should be taxed at about 50% before the do it. Especially if those who donate are also getting a tax break for making the donation.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:20   #4
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I see you don't support the Constitution. If I were the churches, I would refuse to allow any part of the church building to be used as a poling place then.

Very well, then when someone breaks in or sets the church on fire... Fire, Rescue, and Police services should be denied them as well.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:35   #5
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Churces are taxed, every room, building, or piece of land that does not hold the actual sanctuary (service).

That rule changed a few years ago.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:37   #6
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Very well, then when someone breaks in or sets the church on fire... Fire, Rescue, and Police services should be denied them as well.

Very well. As long as you apply the same standard to all non-profit, tax exempt organizations.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:37   #7
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Churces are taxed, every room, building, or piece of land that does not hold the actual sanctuary (service).

That rule changed a few years ago.
Income Tax (Donations)
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:05   #8
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/20...head-election/

IMO, if churches are going to do this they should lose their tax free status.
If they cross the line they very well could.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:25   #9
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I think churches should be taxed period. They waste piles of American dollars each year shoveling it into third world hell holes. Which they can since it's their money... but they should be taxed at about 50% before the do it. Especially if those who donate are also getting a tax break for making the donation.
Nobody or no group should be taxed at 50%.

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Old 09-20-2012, 10:28   #10
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Nobody or no group should be taxed at 50%.

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People already are. Some states charge as much as 25%... by the time you add that to your 25% federal, plus SOC and MED... you're more than a 50/50 partner with the Government. You must not remember what the tax rates were in the good ole days.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:41   #11
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People already are. Some states charge as much as 25%... by the time you add that to your 25% federal, plus SOC and MED... you're more than a 50/50 partner with the Government. You must not remember what the tax rates were in the good ole days.
I didn't say it doesn't happen. I said no one should be including the 50% tax you suggested be placed on churches.

I don't understand conservatives on here that keep asking for more taxes on people or groups.

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Old 09-20-2012, 11:07   #12
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What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" do you not understand?

As to tax-exempt status, let the exact same rule apply to churches that applies to any other tax-exempt organization with regard to speech political or otherwise. The effort to muzzle pastors preventing them from speaking politically from the pulpit is without any possible Constitutional basis. It only reflects an effort of those in political power to control political speech that they consider might not be supportive to their own interest, political or financial, etc.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:24   #13
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[QUOTE=Glock36shooter;19438813]I think churches should be taxed period. They waste piles of American dollars each year shoveling it into third world hell holes. Which they can since it's their money... but they should be taxed at about 50% before the do it. Especially if those who donate are also getting a tax break for making the donation. Non-profit organizations are taxed if they fail to meet the standards required. This applies to all non-profits, including churches.

The money spent by churches in domestic and overseas ministry is sourced primarily from members. How that money is spent is the decision of the individual churches and the denominations to which they belong. If you wish to be part of that decision making process, join up and join in.

Donations to churches are generally tax-free on the same basis as donations to other non-profit organizations are tax-free. If a good/service is exchanged for that donation, then the fair market value of that good/service is exchanged is counted against any deduction that would apply.

Generally speaking any cash or in kind donation to a church or any other non-profit is deductable by the donor, regardless of what is the employment/membership status of that person. The exact same is true of any other non-profit organization such as the NRA receiving donations from NRA members who then count that donation as a tax deduction, etc., etc., etc.


Very well, then when someone breaks in or sets the church on fire... Fire, Rescue, and Police services should be denied them as well. In general the community services you list are paid by property taxes. Non-profit organizations pay property taxes on any property not associated with the operations of the organization. If property owned by a non-profit is leased, rented, etc., that property is taxes as is any net income.

Income Tax (Donations). Donations to churches are treated in the exact same manner as donations to any other legitimate non-profit organization. Those donations are not subject to income tax if the non-profit complies with the rules/regulations to which it is subject. The donor to any non-profit organization can deduct the amount/value of their donation.

People already are. Some states charge as much as 25%... by the time you add that to your 25% federal, plus SOC and MED... you're more than a 50/50 partner with the Government. You must not remember what the tax rates were in the good ole days. You need to educate yourself. Taxes paid to the fed. govt. are separate from and not related to taxes paid to state or local governments. Further, taxes paid at the state and local level vary depending on the local under consideration.

If you want to play silly games totaling all the taxes one pays for whatever govt. function/service that you do not like, fine. If it makes you feel better, go right ahead. Reality is that you are not independent. No one is. You live in society. The cost of society are our shared responsibility.

As to tax rates, fed. tax rates are remarkably low especially considering the historical record. Complaints about increased state and local taxation are understandable. States and cities have increasingly had to shoulder responsibilities that were not so long ago paid by or subsidized by the fed. govt. This is especially difficult during times of recession for while the fed. govt. can finance spending through a recession by running a deficit, such is not possible for govt. at the state or local level.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:32   #14
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I didn't say it doesn't happen. I said no one should be including the 50% tax you suggested be placed on churches.

I don't understand conservatives on here that keep asking for more taxes on people or groups.

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Our nation cannot continue to party down while kicking the bill down the table to someone elses children/grand-children. We've all had our fling. Now we have to pay the price of that fling.

To get our nation of out the financial hole that we've all had a large part of spending it into, taxes will be raised. Taxes will be raised on the precious little 1/2/3%ers. That is only right. They have benefited overwhelmingly from having their taxes cut overwhelmingly. Taxes will be raised on the middle-class. It will be done by a president who is in his second term working with a congress where many of those voting for that tax increase are in safe districts or else those voting for the tax increase will be members who are retiring or facing challengers that they know they can't beat come election time.

Spending will be cut. Spending will be cut to wasteful programs such as the dod. That will impact dod support industries. Fine. Let them take their fine production expertise and apply it to the needs of the nation rather than the needs of the military. If the stock holders don't like it, they can sell their stock and invest elsewhere.

Spending will be cut to some social services. This will be the bone thrown to the tea party and conservatives. They will find little meat or marrow on that bone. But they will chew on it and sulk that they didn't get any more. Fine.
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Old 09-20-2012, 20:08   #15
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What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" do you not understand?

As to tax-exempt status, let the exact same rule apply to churches that applies to any other tax-exempt organization with regard to speech political or otherwise. The effort to muzzle pastors preventing them from speaking politically from the pulpit is without any possible Constitutional basis. It only reflects an effort of those in political power to control political speech that they consider might not be supportive to their own interest, political or financial, etc.
No other tax exempt organization is allowed to make political endorsements. The NRA is not tax exempt, they do however have an exempt wing (separate books) which is responsible for gun safety instruction.

I don't see how keeping the church from butting into politics prevents them from exercising their religious liberty.
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Old 09-20-2012, 20:58   #16
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No other tax exempt organization is allowed to make political endorsements. The NRA is not tax exempt, they do however have an exempt wing (separate books) which is responsible for gun safety instruction.

I don't see how keeping the church from butting into politics prevents them from exercising their religious liberty.
What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" do you not understand?

Like it or not, Congress is prohibited by the COTUS from restricting the free exercise of religion. That free exercise does not mean that the pastor, etc. can speak on any issue that suits the Congress. That free exercise means that the pastor, etc. can speak to any issue under the shining sun... including those deemed "political." To posit that churches should not speak to political issues is a illegitimate restriction of that right to freely exercise religious conviction that is guaranteed by the COTUS.

Various administrations have sought to use the irs as a weapon by which to silence the voice of legitimate Christian groups. It hasn't worked. It will not work. No pastor is going to tolerate anyone telling him what he can or cannot say in the pulpit. And even this debauched administration does not have the stomach for trying to muzzle the legitimate exercise of Christian faith even when that exercise addresses political issues. In fact, no Christian can act in faith without addressing themselves to issues of politics. It is no different than issues of morality, social well-being, war and peace, disarmament, poverty, education, etc., etc., etc. There is not any way to speak to any significant issue that is not political.

These pastors are to be applauded for their very vocal and public stand on behalf of religious freedom, determined not by some state functionary but rather as determined by those who practice that free expression of Christian faith. They and countless others like them well understand that in ultimate loyalties duty and allegiance to God comes first. Everything else including country comes a distant second.
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Old 09-20-2012, 21:07   #17
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Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Our nation cannot continue to party down while kicking the bill down the table to someone elses children/grand-children. We've all had our fling. Now we have to pay the price of that fling.

To get our nation of out the financial hole that we've all had a large part of spending it into, taxes will be raised. Taxes will be raised on the precious little 1/2/3%ers. That is only right. They have benefited overwhelmingly from having their taxes cut overwhelmingly. Taxes will be raised on the middle-class. It will be done by a president who is in his second term working with a congress where many of those voting for that tax increase are in safe districts or else those voting for the tax increase will be members who are retiring or facing challengers that they know they can't beat come election time.

Spending will be cut. Spending will be cut to wasteful programs such as the dod. That will impact dod support industries. Fine. Let them take their fine production expertise and apply it to the needs of the nation rather than the needs of the military. If the stock holders don't like it, they can sell their stock and invest elsewhere.

Spending will be cut to some social services. This will be the bone thrown to the tea party and conservatives. They will find little meat or marrow on that bone. But they will chew on it and sulk that they didn't get any more. Fine.
So how does taxing the people more help? The government will start spending less and paying off debt with that extra tax? What has the government done to have you believe they would spend or use the money better than the public will?

How about we try removing the tax burden from the people and let them use that money in the market to buy goods and open business. Money not giving to the government in the forms of taxes stay in the economy, that goes for middle class, 1% and businesses.

You are right services and programs will and need to be cut but taking more money out of the economy and giving it to the government to waste does no good.


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Old 09-20-2012, 21:41   #18
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How long before political parties start calling themselves churches?
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Old 09-20-2012, 22:26   #19
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Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" do you not understand?

Like it or not, Congress is prohibited by the COTUS from restricting the free exercise of religion.
This is similar to saying that Congress is prohibited by the COTUS from allowing people to yell fire in a crowded theater.
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That free exercise does not mean that the pastor, etc. can speak on any issue that suits the Congress. That free exercise means that the pastor, etc. can speak to any issue under the shining sun... including those deemed "political." To posit that churches should not speak to political issues is a illegitimate restriction of that right to freely exercise religious conviction that is guaranteed by the COTUS.
No one is saying that pastors can't speak on political issues. They're saying that pastors who, while speaking in their role as the mouthpiece of a church not as private individuals, endorse specific political candidates or causes risk losing their tax exempt status.
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Various administrations have sought to use the irs as a weapon by which to silence the voice of legitimate Christian groups. It hasn't worked. It will not work. No pastor is going to tolerate anyone telling him what he can or cannot say in the pulpit. And even this debauched administration does not have the stomach for trying to muzzle the legitimate exercise of Christian faith even when that exercise addresses political issues. In fact, no Christian can act in faith without addressing themselves to issues of politics. It is no different than issues of morality, social well-being, war and peace, disarmament, poverty, education, etc., etc., etc. There is not any way to speak to any significant issue that is not political.

These pastors are to be applauded for their very vocal and public stand on behalf of religious freedom, determined not by some state functionary but rather as determined by those who practice that free expression of Christian faith. They and countless others like them well understand that in ultimate loyalties duty and allegiance to God comes first. Everything else including country comes a distant second.
Why don't the pastors just pay the taxes and say whatever they like, if the issue is so important?

Should Pastors or other religious authorities have the power to dictate the political decisions of their congregants?
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Last edited by Animal Mother; 09-20-2012 at 22:27..
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Old 09-20-2012, 22:44   #20
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To the best of my knowledge, not one church has ever been fined (threatened maybe) for doing just that even though the possibility exists. Plus, I believe it's done from African-American church pulpits each and every Sunday. Just saying...
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