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Old 09-18-2012, 07:30   #1
FCoulter
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"Elective" abortions sanctioned by the SDA church

I have heard many SDA's proclaim they are against abortion.

Truth be known the church is actually pro choice.


http://adventlife.wordpress.com/2012...by-julia-duin/

It makes one wonder if its all about money with them since the SDA church was fined and had to pay over 20 million for medicaid,medicare fraud in their hospitals.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:53   #2
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I thought the SDA was "OK" with abortions. Or at least that's the impression I gathered from our resident SDA members here. Not sure so I'll leave that to them to say.

I just wanted to get in before the lock.
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Old 09-18-2012, 14:20   #3
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Originally Posted by Roering View Post
I thought the SDA was "OK" with abortions. Or at least that's the impression I gathered from our resident SDA members here. Not sure so I'll leave that to them to say.

I just wanted to get in before the lock.
Pretty sure I've heard this, too.

Pro choice doesn't mean pro death, by the way.
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Old 09-18-2012, 14:28   #4
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Originally Posted by Woofie View Post
Pretty sure I've heard this, too.

Pro choice doesn't mean pro death, by the way.
Sorry, bad choice of words on my part. I honestly thought adventists were against abortions until I read this.


I personally dont see how a christian organization can be for elective abortions.


To each their own I guess.
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Old 09-18-2012, 14:49   #5
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Originally Posted by Woofie View Post

Pro choice doesn't mean pro death, by the way.

Then what does it mean?

If those who are against abortion are called pro-life, then why aren't those who favor abortion called pro-death?

Pro choice is a misleading term since both sides could be referred to as pro choice. Same issue, just different choices.

Those people that are so called "pro choice" are indeed pro death, just as those that oppose abortion are pro life.
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Old 09-18-2012, 15:32   #6
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Then what does it mean?

If those who are against abortion are called pro-life, then why aren't those who favor abortion called pro-death?

Pro choice is a misleading term since both sides could be referred to as pro choice. Same issue, just different choices.

Those people that are so called "pro choice" are indeed pro death, just as those that oppose abortion are pro life.
If you want to get in to semantics, the appropriate term for those in favor of abortion rights is "pro-abortion". Similarly, those who oppose abortion rights are "anti-abortion".
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Old 09-18-2012, 15:57   #7
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If you want to get in to semantics, the appropriate term for those in favor of abortion rights is "pro-abortion". Similarly, those who oppose abortion rights are "anti-abortion".

Exactly, those are the proper terms.

I've always wondered where the terms "pro choice" and "pro life" came from.

Maybe they're designed to confuse?
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Old 09-18-2012, 16:16   #8
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Then what does it mean?

It means...

"Oh no, I would never kill my own child. That would be terrible! I just think it is wrong for me to get in the way of others from being able to kill their children."
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Old 09-18-2012, 16:17   #9
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If you want to get in to semantics, the appropriate term for those in favor of abortion rights is "pro-abortion". Similarly, those who oppose abortion rights are "anti-abortion".
Hmm I disagree. I don't think there are many people who are PRO Abortion. Abortion is an awful thing and I don't really think the people who seek them are all that happy about it. My experience is usually they're terrified out of their mind and feel they're back is against the wall.

I think the terms currently used characterize the view points pretty well. Pro-Choice people, while not all that crazy about the act of abortion feel that the option or "Choice" must be preserved. Especially since there really isn't another plan in the works to care for the 2 million children a year that are aborted. Pro-Life people, while also not crazy about the act of abortion feel that saving the "Life" on the unborn fetus is of greater concern than the mother's right to choose if she wants a child or not.

I find myself being very Anti-Abortion Yet very Pro-Choice. Abortion is a terrible thing and I don't envy the women that find themselves having to make that choice. But a flat out Anti-Abortion Pro-Life stance still leaves a child in a home that doesn't want it. Don't think you're gonna find that good of parenting to be had in such a home.

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Old 09-18-2012, 16:41   #10
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Hmm I disagree. I don't think there are many people who are PRO Abortion. Abortion is an awful thing and I don't really think the people who seek them are all that happy about it. My experience is usually they're terrified out of their mind and feel they're back is against the wall.

I think the terms currently used characterize the view points pretty well. Pro-Choice people, while not all that crazy about the act of abortion feel that the option or "Choice" must be preserved. Especially since there really isn't another plan in the works to care for the 2 million children a year that are aborted. Pro-Life people, while also not crazy about the act of abortion feel that saving the "Life" on the unborn fetus is of greater concern than the mother's right to choose if she wants a child or not.

I find myself being very Anti-Abortion Yet very Pro-Choice. Abortion is a terrible thing and I don't envy the women that find themselves having to make that choice. But a flat out Anti-Abortion Pro-Life stance still leaves a child in a home that doesn't want it. Don't think you're gonna find that good of parenting to be had in such a home.
The term is misleading and therefore should not be used. I find that when someone takes a stance that they are not particularly proud of when you get into the particulars of what it entails you come up with a euphemism for your stance.

Hell, I'm very "pro choice".
I believe people have the right to choose where they live, what type of career they want to pursue, choose to start whatever legal business they want, choose to get a degree, choose to get married, choose to have kids, choose to carry a firearm, etc. etc.

All fall under the umbrella of "pro choice". But specifically it means I am Pro commerce, pro education, pro marriage, pro 2nd amendment, pro family,.......

Pro choice meant in the terms of believing that people have the right to get an abortion if they want to means you are really pro abortion.
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Old 09-18-2012, 16:48   #11
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The term is misleading and therefore should not be used. I find that when someone takes a stance that they are not particularly proud of when you get into the particulars of what it entails you come up with a euphemism for your stance.

Hell, I'm very "pro choice".
I believe people have the right to choose where they live, what type of career they want to pursue, choose to start whatever legal business they want, choose to get a degree, choose to get married, choose to have kids, choose to carry a firearm, etc. etc.

All fall under the umbrella of "pro choice". But specifically it means I am Pro commerce, pro education, pro marriage, pro 2nd amendment, pro family,.......

Pro choice meant in the terms of believing that people have the right to get an abortion if they want to means you are really pro abortion.
As I said, I disagree. I think that terminology is meant to demonize someone that chooses to have an abortion. It's meant to color them as the type of person that just can't wait to kill an unborn child. And that simply isn't true.
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Old 09-18-2012, 16:57   #12
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Hmm I disagree. I don't think there are many people who are PRO Abortion. Abortion is an awful thing and I don't really think the people who seek them are all that happy about it. My experience is usually they're terrified out of their mind and feel they're back is against the wall.

I think the terms currently used characterize the view points pretty well. Pro-Choice people, while not all that crazy about the act of abortion feel that the option or "Choice" must be preserved. Especially since there really isn't another plan in the works to care for the 2 million children a year that are aborted. Pro-Life people, while also not crazy about the act of abortion feel that saving the "Life" on the unborn fetus is of greater concern than the mother's right to choose if she wants a child or not.

I find myself being very Anti-Abortion Yet very Pro-Choice. Abortion is a terrible thing and I don't envy the women that find themselves having to make that choice. But a flat out Anti-Abortion Pro-Life stance still leaves a child in a home that doesn't want it. Don't think you're gonna find that good of parenting to be had in such a home.
I agree that are very few people who are giddy about the act of abortion. However, the term "pro-abortion" indicates that one is a proponent of abortion rights. Pro-choice is a label assumed by those who support abortion rights presumably because they have no desire to champion the act. Rather, they are championing the ability to make the choice.
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Old 09-18-2012, 17:01   #13
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As I said, I disagree. I think that terminology is meant to demonize someone that chooses to have an abortion. It's meant to color them as the type of person that just can't wait to kill an unborn child. And that simply isn't true.
OK then. Let's say you are Pro Choice?

What exactly is the "Choice" that you are in favor of?
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Old 09-18-2012, 17:52   #14
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OK then. Let's say you are Pro Choice?

What exactly is the "Choice" that you are in favor of?
I get what you're saying and obviously the choice is to get the abortion or not. But to me Pro-Abortion still seems as though it's describing being positive about the act itself which I know no one who is. Even people who have had them.
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Old 09-18-2012, 18:06   #15
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Then what does it mean?

If those who are against abortion are called pro-life, then why aren't those who favor abortion called pro-death?

Pro choice is a misleading term since both sides could be referred to as pro choice. Same issue, just different choices.

Those people that are so called "pro choice" are indeed pro death, just as those that oppose abortion are pro life.
That's nothing more than a lame attempt to frame the argument in terms that demonize your opposition.

Since those who are pro choice are in favor of a woman's right to choose shouldn't we call them "pro rights" and the pro life crowd "anti rights"?

Are you really afraid of gay people or did some liberal just beat you to the punch by naming you homophobic?
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Old 09-18-2012, 18:19   #16
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I get what you're saying and obviously the choice is to get the abortion or not. But to me Pro-Abortion still seems as though it's describing being positive about the act itself which I know no one who is. Even people who have had them.
I see. I suppose it could be in the same sense that I am pro capital punishment. I don't celebrate it, but I support it.
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Old 09-18-2012, 18:27   #17
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Since those who are pro choice are in favor of a woman's right to choose shouldn't we call them "pro rights" and the pro life crowd "anti rights"?
But again. "Choice" and "rights" are way too vague.

It makes more sense to include the term abortion since that is what is really being discussed here.

Pro-abortion
Anti-abortion
Pro right to choose an abortion
Anti right to choose an abortion


The term would be better served to actually state the action for which one is for or against shouldn't it?
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:48   #18
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My personal opinion? If the birth threatens the life of the mother, is rape, or rape by incest, I can see how it can be justified. For convenience sake, I just don't believe in it.
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:48   #19
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The whole arguement is about how free people should be to make moral decisions.

How much freedom did God allow Adam and Eve?

Were they allowed to make bad moral decisions?

Should we allow others the right to make bad moral decisions?

Who determines what is moral in the first place?

For you who are atheists there is no absolute morality.

For some of us who believe there is.

Our civil laws are meant to allow a mixed society to live in some sort of peace and function. Civil laws are therefore some kind of compromise. What is legal may not be something that I personally would engage in because there is a higher morality that I personally am accountable to.
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:02   #20
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Pro choice means allowing others to choose what is right for them, not necessarily the choice you would personally make. I would not choose abortion, however who am I to force my morality upon another? I don't know their circumstances in life. I don't make decisions about your personal medical procedures, so why do you feel the need to weigh in on other people's?
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:44   #21
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another episode in Fred's continuing saga of trying to make his cult seem better
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:18   #22
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Pro choice means allowing others to choose what is right for them, not necessarily the choice you would personally make. I would not choose abortion, however who am I to force my morality upon another? I don't know their circumstances in life. I don't make decisions about your personal medical procedures, so why do you feel the need to weigh in on other people's?
So if a mother just can't handle raising a child anymore and decides to drown her 18 month old in the bathtub you're going to support her choice. Of course, you wouldn't do this yourself, that would be terrible, but you don't know her circumstances in life and wouldn't force your morality upon her.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:54   #23
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Then what does it mean?

If those who are against abortion are called pro-life, then why aren't those who favor abortion called pro-death?

Pro choice is a misleading term since both sides could be referred to as pro choice. Same issue, just different choices.

Those people that are so called "pro choice" are indeed pro death, just as those that oppose abortion are pro life.
Are you for having the right to defend yourself? If someone defends themselves, do you hope for it to result in the death of the offender? You would probably prefer that the offender not die but that's not the point. The point is having that right to defend under circumstances that you will not be there to judge and you personally have no right to armchair quarterback after the fact. It doesn't involve you and the fact that a perp is a perp and a fetus is an innocent life is irrelevant.

It's not your situation for you to impose your morals or your thought process or your life experiences or whatever you try to justify on other people. Now come on back and explain why you have that right to decide for them.

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Old 09-19-2012, 11:15   #24
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So if a mother just can't handle raising a child anymore and decides to drown her 18 month old in the bathtub you're going to support her choice. Of course, you wouldn't do this yourself, that would be terrible, but you don't know her circumstances in life and wouldn't force your morality upon her.
At the moment a first trimester birth does not have the same rights and protections as a full born individual. I'm not going to argue that it is or isn't a human life. That's splitting hairs and of course it's a human life. Albeit dependent on it's mothers body to survive... but even that is splitting hairs since a newborn can't survive without help. Whether it is right or wrong, good or evil, is up to the individual under our current laws. You're taking the discussion to an extreme that makes no sense. It is currently a crime to kill an 18 month old baby. It is not a crime to terminate a pregnancy in it's first trimester. So it doesn't matter what we think of the morality of it. It is simply legal to do. And you cannot legislate morality. This is the reason I think prostitution should be legal. people are going to do it anyway. At least if it were legal there might be a chance they could do it safely. If a woman wants to have sex with a man for money the man wants to pay money for sex with the woman... what exactly is the problem?

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Old 09-19-2012, 12:21   #25
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At the moment a first trimester birth does not have the same rights and protections as a full born individual. I'm not going to argue that it is or isn't a human life. That's splitting hairs and of course it's a human life. Albeit dependent on it's mothers body to survive... but even that is splitting hairs since a newborn can't survive without help. Whether it is right or wrong, good or evil, is up to the individual under our current laws. You're taking the discussion to an extreme that makes no sense. It is currently a crime to kill an 18 month old baby. It is not a crime to terminate a pregnancy in it's first trimester. So it doesn't matter what we think of the morality of it. It is simply legal to do. And you cannot legislate morality. This is the reason I think prostitution should be legal. people are going to do it anyway. At least if it were legal there might be a chance they could do it safely. If a woman wants to have sex with a man for money the man wants to pay money for sex with the woman... what exactly is the problem?
Legal and Moral are not the same thing.

Yes my example is an extreme. It also demonstrates the flaw in the logic.
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