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Old 09-17-2012, 15:13   #126
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It's all situation driven. . .

What if someone kidnaps your 12 year old child with the intent of letting the gang "have some fun", and you get your hand on one of the thugs as they flee with your child.

I think most people here would do [Fill in the blank with the most heinous torture you can think of] to get info on where the rest of the gang took your child. . .

What if you knew that people had resorted to cannibalism to survive and they had grabbed your child?

Extreme examples? Yes. . Given the most extreme situations, I think that most could be driven to extreme actions. .
Agree, fwiw. While morals & principles don't change based on situations, the list of appropriate responses does. I'm one of the nicest people on the planet, but if you harm or attempt to harm my family, then you've given up the right to live on my planet; and I think that's completely morally & ethically defensible. (Legally may sometimes be another matter, but as you say, sometimes it's dictated by the situation.)

But yes, if someone harms one of my family or one of the horde of little girls that for whatever reason have semi-adopted my wife and I, they'd be doing themselves a favor by committing suicide before the old oaf arrives. Because as nice a person as I am (and I'm sure this is true of many people), with the right motivation I'm completely capable of doing things that would make satan himself cringe.
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Old 09-17-2012, 15:24   #127
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What if he does and he has several?
A 30-06 or 338 Lapua (or insert whatever rifle/scope combo you choose) in the hands of an average thug is quite limited without that individual having learned or trained the skills in which to employ the weapon effectively.

Case in point, a friend of mine has a lot of rural property and a full 400-meter (very flat) range. Every Summer he invites shooting his shooting buddies to bring their pet rifle. He places a 5-gallon bucket full of colored water (sometimes Tannerite..woo-hoo) for target practice at just over 300 meters.

Offhand and even prone, few shooters hit the "mark" with their first round (me included).

My point? An untrained individual (i.e. "criminal") with the biggest/baddest rifle in the world is much less of a threat at extended distances than most would believe.
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Old 09-17-2012, 15:56   #128
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A 30-06 or 338 Lapua (or insert whatever rifle/scope combo you choose) in the hands of an average thug is quite limited without that individual having learned or trained the skills in which to employ the weapon effectively.

Case in point, a friend of mine has a lot of rural property and a full 400-meter (very flat) range. Every Summer he invites shooting his shooting buddies to bring their pet rifle. He places a 5-gallon bucket full of colored water (sometimes Tannerite..woo-hoo) for target practice at just over 300 meters.

Offhand and even prone, few shooters hit the "mark" with their first round (me included).

My point? An untrained individual (i.e. "criminal") with the biggest/baddest rifle in the world is much less of a threat at extended distances than most would believe.
What you say it true for both sides of the line.

400 meters is 10 feet short of 1/4 mile. Now in the desert or deforested mountain area a long shot might be needed. But in a forested area a person might not even have a clear field of view for that distance. I don't think many attackers would try for a 300m shot or shots to announce their position or intentions. 200yds would be pushing it in a forested/heavy brush area.

The other thing is this - in a desert or deforested mountain area a defender would need less people then in a forested/thick brush area due to the lines of sight. But you still need shifts and those people on watch are not helping with food production.

The attacker has the advantage of choosing the time, place, and tactics for the attack. That can offset many of the defender's defenses.

As the guy in the video states many preppers think their attacker is stupid - a mistake. Also, they think like the defender and not the attacker. I wouldn't take a 300m shot if I knew I couldn't make it and those with me couldn't either. So, why would I think an attacker would do it?

It probably would be more helpful for the people here to post how as an attacker they would 'out fox' the defending prepper. Then they could think about their defenses.

I remember a post that in the SHTF people would have small 'gift packages' of water and food to give to people to keep them moving out of their area - not something I would recommend.

There was a post that they would 'select' from refugees people who had useful skills they needed. As if they had such great people skills to sort out the good from the bad or even spies.

Last edited by PaulMason; 09-17-2012 at 16:04..
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Old 09-17-2012, 16:10   #129
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Agreed, PaulMason, but as a threat (providing I'm static and they are not), I would not hesitate to expend 3-4 rounds at 300 knowing that I proabaly have more than a few "little brass things filled with gun powder" than they do.

In my neck of the woods, 200 yds/meters is indeed pushing it. My friend's 3-400 is the exception and not the rule.

However, ID'ing a true threat at such a distance (good glass or not) is not something that I want to be guessing at!
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Old 09-17-2012, 16:15   #130
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Agreed, PaulMason, but as a threat (providing I'm static and they are not), I would not hesitate to expend 3-4 rounds at 300 knowing that I proabaly have more than a few "little brass things filled with gun powder" than they do.

In my neck of the woods, 200 yds/meters is indeed pushing it. My friend's 3-400 is the exception and not the rule.

However, ID'ing a true threat at such a distance (good glass or not) is not something that I want to be guessing at!
You bring up a good point. Unless you are fired upon, how do you know from a distance the people know about you and they are a threat to you? If a person were to fire upon them, they have given away their position and made an enemy. - No simple answers to all of this.

Last edited by PaulMason; 09-17-2012 at 16:17..
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Old 09-17-2012, 16:19   #131
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You bring up a good point. Unless you are fired upon, how do you know from a distance the people know about you and they are a threat to you?
Agreed, again. Hopefully, they would not be sporting PETA or Hope & Change T-shirts; that could prove to be a real game-changer!


Last edited by Leigh; 09-17-2012 at 16:19..
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Old 09-17-2012, 17:04   #132
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I'm thinking that "preparing for snipers" will not really be "reality based prepping". If someone with skill gets the first shot, you will not have to worry about a thing.
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Old 09-17-2012, 17:31   #133
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I'm thinking that "preparing for snipers" will not really be "reality based prepping". If someone with skill gets the first shot, you will not have to worry about a thing.
Thankfully, I have no issues "preparing for snipers" in my rural community and in general I seriously doubt that many people have to consider such a scenario.

In truth, "reality based prepping" consists mainly of mundane (though very important) skills such as water procurement/treatment/storage, food stocks, gardening (climate permitting), personal and group hygiene, and once normal day-to-day activities of life.

From the very dawn on Humankind, the buzzards, worms, and maggots have dined on those "lone wolf" individuals who foolishly relied on their gear and isolationist mindset and ultimately, failed to understand or realize that the survival of one depends on the preparation of many. It has always been that way and it always shall.

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Old 09-17-2012, 19:44   #134
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You bring up a good point. Unless you are fired upon, how do you know from a distance the people .....are a threat to you? .......
Their gang tattoos they are so proud of.
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Old 09-17-2012, 19:58   #135
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As far as a "preppers" go, the word has been overused about as much as "tactical," "stopping power," and "zombies."
Nothing like being prepped with my tactical pump shotgun loaded with super ninja birdshot which I can take out zombies at 560 yards thanks to its supreme unbeatable stopping power.

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Originally Posted by wjv View Post
It's all situation driven. . .

What if someone kidnaps your 12 year old child with the intent of letting the gang "have some fun", and you get your hand on one of the thugs as they flee with your child.

I think most people here would do [Fill in the blank with the most heinous torture you can think of] to get info on where the rest of the gang took your child. . .

What if you knew that people had resorted to cannibalism to survive and they had grabbed your child?

Extreme examples? Yes. . Given the most extreme situations, I think that most could be driven to extreme actions. .
Yes, it would take less than that sometimes. Some people put themselves into a situation where you are forced to take actions which you don't normally think you would be capable of.

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If we take him at face value stating he is not ready, I would venture it is safe to say he does not, but he might be able to recruit.
Ummm... AK Stick is the real deal. One of his MOLLE accessories has seen more combat than most of us put together.

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Agree, fwiw. While morals & principles don't change based on situations, the list of appropriate responses does. I'm one of the nicest people on the planet, but if you harm or attempt to harm my family, then you've given up the right to live on my planet; and I think that's completely morally & ethically defensible. (Legally may sometimes be another matter, but as you say, sometimes it's dictated by the situation.)

But yes, if someone harms one of my family or one of the horde of little girls that for whatever reason have semi-adopted my wife and I, they'd be doing themselves a favor by committing suicide before the old oaf arrives. Because as nice a person as I am (and I'm sure this is true of many people), with the right motivation I'm completely capable of doing things that would make satan himself cringe.
Cf. Taken.
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Old 09-17-2012, 21:42   #136
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Another Quote ” you may have a six month supply of food but you have nutin’ when my posse come for you...its our supply”

”Assemble baby...even though I ain’t ready I have guns and I have family”
I wonder if he should pause to think that people who are stockpiling food, have guns as well.

Or does he think he's the big bad grasshopper that is going to just walk in, terrorize the ants, and take what he wants? (ala Pixar's Bug's Life)

The vocabulary shows his intellect, and without smarts, "force" is not the only criteria that matters.
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Old 09-17-2012, 23:41   #137
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Ummm... AK Stick is the real deal. One of his MOLLE accessories has seen more combat than most of us put together.

I'm pretty sure that he was talking about the guy in the video's, not me.


However, I'm by no means an expert. There are guys on GT with far more experience than I. I've just been deployed a bunch.
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Old 09-18-2012, 00:03   #138
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However, I'm by no means an expert. There are guys on GT with far more experience than I. I've just been deployed a bunch.
Which still puts you ahead of 95% of the couch bound YouTube schooled commandos here and on the internet in general.
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:37   #139
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Before the thread goes off into raging

Reality. 1968 US Army. A cold chill goes over me when I realize that a younger guy with quicker reactions and no formal education can shoot me dead quicker than I can get him.

2001. I have an exercise. Crawl across a field with 18 inch high weeds. You are going up against the head of the USMC sniper scout school. He sits on a chair and is able to use a pair of stablized binoculars to spot the creepers. A former USAF officer with the training wears an orange jump suit. He completes the exercise successfully and donates the jump suit to the instructor.

Some day, some way, a person will go up the learning curve after shtf. And then, despite great experience, a rural background, and having the most expensive firearm, you will lose.

Two great Americans have given the same advice -

"Speak softly and carry a big stick" -T. Roosevelt
and better
"Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee"-C. Clay.

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Old 09-18-2012, 08:36   #140
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Some day, some way, a person will go up the learning curve after shtf. And then, despite great experience, a rural background, and having the most expensive firearm, you [or I or someone else] will lose.
Much truth in that. It happens every day in so many other facets of life.
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:38   #141
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Nothing like being prepped with my tactical pump shotgun loaded with super ninja birdshot which I can take out zombies at 560 yards thanks to its supreme unbeatable stopping power.
Forget the super-ninja birdshot - that's so 90's. New thing is flaming, tritium-coated, homing flechettes.



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...Cf. Taken.
Cf..?
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:42   #142
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Some day, some way, a person will go up the learning curve after shtf. And then, despite great experience, a rural background, and having the most expensive firearm, you will lose.
When bullets fly, all bets are off. You can get taken out by a 10 year old kid with a .22. However, you can also outperform the vast majority with a little bit of training.

The likely danger to a prepper would be a home invasion, shortly followed by fire. Crooks figure out real quick that they can just burn you out. It didn't take long for the LA rioters to start burning stores.

The basics of "conducting a defense" can be googled up and be put into effect in 10 minutes. Whether your average joe has the willpower to stay up all night or take a 4hour shift is another story. Either way, it's not the biggest deal to "defend" for a while.

If you have coin and have the basics, you will be so far ahead of the hoard that it's not funny.

The vids do one thing...show you that anyone with a little intelligence can figure out your strengths and weaknesses. Do they have the equipment, willpower, & training to carry out a successful op? Damage...yes, successfull....no.

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Old 09-18-2012, 09:16   #143
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Forget the super-ninja birdshot - that's so 90's. New thing is flaming, tritium-coated, homing flechettes.




Cf..?
Why the heck didn't I get the e-mail.'08.



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Old 09-18-2012, 09:33   #144
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Forget the super-ninja birdshot - that's so 90's. New thing is flaming, tritium-coated, homing flechettes.
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Why the heck didn't I get the e-mail.'08.


those are SO yesterday. The MkII's are out just this morning with DU penetrators.

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Old 09-18-2012, 09:42   #145
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Youse also.'08.

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Old 09-18-2012, 10:03   #146
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What's "Cf"...?

The only cf's I know are conversion factor, cash flow, and maybe caucasian female.
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Old 09-18-2012, 10:13   #147
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Why most Doomsday preppers will die ...by Me.

Because there are 2 kinds of people in the world: Predators and Prey. I am convinced that absolutely every single person is one or the other, but civilized society makes it hard to tell for sure which is which.

The division between them isn't liberal/conservative or pro-gun/anti-gun, or prepared/unprepared. The difference is that Predators don't kill you and take what they want from you right now, because the threat of prison makes that a bad idea for them and self-interest dictates that they have the most pleasure in life by getting along in society (obviously, the less bright of them sometimes fail to make the distinction and they serve as an example to the others, mainly in prisons).

Prey are the kind of people who don't kill you and take what you've got because it "wrong" and "bad" and "evil" and whatever. They're the kind of people who think wacky crap like "everybody would just get along in a communal society without government" but they are also the people down the street in the minivan, who think "people are basically good."

If the government enforcement of law disappears, I think the prey will discover how many people were predators and they they are too weak to ever become predators - that's what is missing from their prepping. Without the government, predators and prey will work among people just like it does in the jungle. Good luck. Most of you will need it.
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Old 09-18-2012, 10:32   #148
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Why most Doomsday preppers will die ...by Me.

Because there are 2 kinds of people in the world: Predators and Prey. I am convinced that absolutely every single person is one or the other, but civilized society makes it hard to tell for sure which is which.

The division between them isn't liberal/conservative or pro-gun/anti-gun, or prepared/unprepared. The difference is that Predators don't kill you and take what they want from you right now, because the threat of prison makes that a bad idea for them and self-interest dictates that they have the most pleasure in life by getting along in society (obviously, the less bright of them sometimes fail to make the distinction and they serve as an example to the others, mainly in prisons).

Prey are the kind of people who don't kill you and take what you've got because it "wrong" and "bad" and "evil" and whatever. They're the kind of people who think wacky crap like "everybody would just get along in a communal society without government" but they are also the people down the street in the minivan, who think "people are basically good."

If the government enforcement of law disappears, I think the prey will discover how many people were predators and they they are too weak to ever become predators - that's what is missing from their prepping. Without the government, predators and prey will work among people just like it does in the jungle. Good luck. Most of you will need it.
Completely disagree. Far to simplistic. You presuppose that people who would not prey on others are incapable of defending themselves. Self-defense is not predatory behavior.

Edit: Long post about society and history. Not worth it. Suffice it to say, pure predatory behavior is a risky survival strategy for humans. Not in our nature. Predators will eventually be hunted down by those they prey upon and be exterminated. This is one reason civilization exists.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:23   #149
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Predators will eventually be hunted down by those they prey upon and be exterminated. This is one reason civilization exists.
A little off track, but Hitler got some mileage......

Don't hold your breath waiting on people to hunt down bad guys in a shtf scenario...not happening. Folks will protect "their own" when times are dangerous, even today..you have people walk past victims on the street in modern day.

What makes you think they will risk their tail to help? Human nature? It's learned...when "other" lessons are learned, folks won't be as helpfull. If it wasn't for the police, some religion, etc this country would be a shooting range.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:44   #150
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Extreme examples? Yes. . Given the most extreme situations, I think that most could be driven to extreme actions. .
I would have no problem gut shooting a few for effect.
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